Merged: Aircraft midair in Bankstown area
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Not NZ anymore sadly!
Age: 62
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Whoa back!
noone goes out with the intention of killing them self's, but aviation is inherently dangerous due to its nature, as is driving along freeways. we minimize risk at every opportunity, but accidents wiil continue to happen as long as there are aircraft in the air and cars on the road.
get used to it, and move on. Its a fact of life.
get used to it, and move on. Its a fact of life.
Car drivers don't get anywhere near the amount of training we have, before they're able to belt along at 30 metres a second mere feet away from other cars, driven by those just as "un-trained".
Truly awful, thorts to all.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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A sad day. Reform, Relocate or Write-off?
As a former instructor at Bankstown and Jandakot, taught by Ken himself, I understand how busy the GAAPs are.
When I first started flying out of YSBK, there was nothing around 2RN making it easy to spot other aircraft and sequence yourself; and if worse came to worse there was nothing to hit other than good landing areas (or YHOX). Now Sydney has sprawled and the approaches to BK are over populated areas. I don't think its such a good idea to make a/c all fly to one spot over a populated area at the same altitude.
Prospect still remains unpopulated, for the obvious reason, but as Dick said, the approaches are more suited to aid the ground to air radio operator who sits in the tower!
YSBK and all the other GAAPS do need some form of assistance. BK ATC should be able to help more. Aircraft could also be fitted with government subsidised TCAS.
YSBK shouldn't move! YSBK and the industry should just be upgraded to meet the demands placed on it this century; but I don't suppose that'll happen under private enterprise.
A tragedy indeed. Accidents like this can be avoided. How about some black spot funding for this intersection!
RIP
When I first started flying out of YSBK, there was nothing around 2RN making it easy to spot other aircraft and sequence yourself; and if worse came to worse there was nothing to hit other than good landing areas (or YHOX). Now Sydney has sprawled and the approaches to BK are over populated areas. I don't think its such a good idea to make a/c all fly to one spot over a populated area at the same altitude.
Prospect still remains unpopulated, for the obvious reason, but as Dick said, the approaches are more suited to aid the ground to air radio operator who sits in the tower!
YSBK and all the other GAAPS do need some form of assistance. BK ATC should be able to help more. Aircraft could also be fitted with government subsidised TCAS.
YSBK shouldn't move! YSBK and the industry should just be upgraded to meet the demands placed on it this century; but I don't suppose that'll happen under private enterprise.
A tragedy indeed. Accidents like this can be avoided. How about some black spot funding for this intersection!
RIP
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Aus
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Having worked closely with those at SFTC and Basair, this accident is tragic and close to home as Im sure it is for many of you. Stick together and support each guys and gals, I know it hurts when its one of your own, but together you will help each other through it.
On a separate note,
Ovation,
you are not required, nor should you be exactly over the top. If you have a look at the ERSA for YSBK it decribes the reporting point to be the north eastern shore of Prospect or South of the TWRN radio mast. I have flown in and out of BK for years and the people who call over, north, 5 miles out, well past the mast, or at prospect over the middle of the reservoir, well to the west, the south, anywhere but the little quarry where if you look at your VTC the arrow points to. While this may have nothing to do with this accident, It never ceases to amaze me how many students (and believe me instructors) dont know the correct reporting points.
It doesnt make a difference who calls first as sequencing instructions are given once you report at 3nm/warwick farm for 11, or downwind for 29, or given earlier to avoid confusion or conflict.
On a separate note,
I had some anxious moments arriving over 2RN in the afternoon last September, when a twin reported 2RN inbound when I was exactly over the top and about to key my inbound call. After lots of head twisting looking for an aircraft at 2RN, it was really a twin about 2 miles to the S who called inbound early.
you are not required, nor should you be exactly over the top. If you have a look at the ERSA for YSBK it decribes the reporting point to be the north eastern shore of Prospect or South of the TWRN radio mast. I have flown in and out of BK for years and the people who call over, north, 5 miles out, well past the mast, or at prospect over the middle of the reservoir, well to the west, the south, anywhere but the little quarry where if you look at your VTC the arrow points to. While this may have nothing to do with this accident, It never ceases to amaze me how many students (and believe me instructors) dont know the correct reporting points.
It doesnt make a difference who calls first as sequencing instructions are given once you report at 3nm/warwick farm for 11, or downwind for 29, or given earlier to avoid confusion or conflict.
Matt-YSBK, you are onto the correct point. Of course at Bankstown you can’t come in from 360 directions, about 180 of them are prevented because of the Sydney control zone and those huge unnecessary military restricted areas to the south.
I worked for years to try to remove the restricted areas so aircraft could come in from the south, improving safety. I failed at this, even after meetings with the military.
This should allow us to at least bring in aircraft approaching from the north. The more random you can make the entry points, the higher level of safety you obtain. That’s what they tell me from overseas experience anyway.
I worked for years to try to remove the restricted areas so aircraft could come in from the south, improving safety. I failed at this, even after meetings with the military.
This should allow us to at least bring in aircraft approaching from the north. The more random you can make the entry points, the higher level of safety you obtain. That’s what they tell me from overseas experience anyway.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brisbane
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"Aircraft could also be fitted with government subsidised TCAS."
Are you serious? in a GAAP? No-one would ever be able to land, everyone would get RA's and be in TCAS climb long before they hit the circuit. People really need to use their eyes more, not rely so heavily on radar, gps and other gadgets. Let's get back to teaching airmanship, not instrument-ship.
Thoughts go out to family and friends of the deceased, and to all at Basair.
Are you serious? in a GAAP? No-one would ever be able to land, everyone would get RA's and be in TCAS climb long before they hit the circuit. People really need to use their eyes more, not rely so heavily on radar, gps and other gadgets. Let's get back to teaching airmanship, not instrument-ship.
Thoughts go out to family and friends of the deceased, and to all at Basair.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I am a part-time student at Basair and given there are only a few female flight instructors, and the report is that two women died in the crash, I am stunned thinking about the lives and promise cut short today. I assume I will know soon enough who it is and am not looking forward to that at all.
I have also flown the accident plane VH-FMG quite a few times myself.
I am only new to the aviation community (under 30 hours) but apparently that is long enough to become acquainted with this horrible aspect of general aviation...
Is it correct that SFTC planes/students have now been involved in three major accidents resulting in three fatalities in the last 2 months? A hard landing last week, and a solo fatal crash a few months back...
I have also flown the accident plane VH-FMG quite a few times myself.
I am only new to the aviation community (under 30 hours) but apparently that is long enough to become acquainted with this horrible aspect of general aviation...
Is it correct that SFTC planes/students have now been involved in three major accidents resulting in three fatalities in the last 2 months? A hard landing last week, and a solo fatal crash a few months back...
Join Date: Dec 2008
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you are not required, nor should you be exactly over the top
Seriously bad airmanship by the guy in the twin
I myself have on occasion done that exact thing to ASSIST the flow of traffic & being certain to report the aircraft in front "is in sight"
Last thing anyone needs is a twin orbiting over 2RN in order to stay behind another aircraft.
BK TWR is able to see local traffic on radar - there needs to be some thought given to whether they can give advisories
None of what I have said is directly related to this accident, its a tragedy & something that will unfortunately continue to occur from time to time
Join Date: Dec 2000
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hows this for a solution, approaching from south, on headings from 100deg, to 180 deg, call at 2rn, if from heading of 180 to 240, then call at what was YHOX, if from heading of 240 to 300, call at prospect, and if from LOE and northerly headings, then report at Parramatta..
it will reduce congestion at the 2 current points, and give ATC a chance to arrange seperation if aircraft ar on different tracks, eg a twin inbound at YHOX can be asked to speed up or an aircraft from 2rn can be asked to slow, etc etc..
just a suggestion.... (i wont hold my breath waiting for it to happen though)
it will reduce congestion at the 2 current points, and give ATC a chance to arrange seperation if aircraft ar on different tracks, eg a twin inbound at YHOX can be asked to speed up or an aircraft from 2rn can be asked to slow, etc etc..
just a suggestion.... (i wont hold my breath waiting for it to happen though)
I just heard Ray Clamback on 2GB explaining how in the United States, there is no such requirement directing small planes to reporting points at busy non-radar tower airports. These people could have been alive today if the NAS had gone ahead. See the document here.
Notice that footnote 3 on the last page explains that GAAP would be changed to Class D as per the FAA system. The dates then say that in December 2002 “Class D tower dimensions and procedures will be modified in line with North American practice.”
This would have allowed us to go to the very modern and safe US procedures without having reporting points which aircraft are directed to - increasing the collision risk.
It is amazing the number of people who come on PPRuNe and discredit the proven US NAS system. How many more lives will we have to lose before Government policy is followed?
Notice that footnote 3 on the last page explains that GAAP would be changed to Class D as per the FAA system. The dates then say that in December 2002 “Class D tower dimensions and procedures will be modified in line with North American practice.”
This would have allowed us to go to the very modern and safe US procedures without having reporting points which aircraft are directed to - increasing the collision risk.
It is amazing the number of people who come on PPRuNe and discredit the proven US NAS system. How many more lives will we have to lose before Government policy is followed?
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Believe the 89 year old former "Spitty" WW2 pilot did a sterling job of maintaining control of a severely damaged A/C and landed safely. Hats off to a truly great old war bird. 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing I will assume is that BK TWR is able to see local traffic on radar - there needs to be some thought given to whether they can give advisories to avoid the sad event that happened today.
SY radar monitors
all a/c outside the 3nm radius of BK.
onelittlepilot
Without debating whether or not tcas should be fitted into all aircraft, there would not be RA's if operated in TA only mode inside the GAAP. Waste of time having TCAS if you're going to set it to TA upon entering the GAAP? I'm sure the pilots of either of the aircraft in this case wouldn't agree with that. It would've been invaluable - TA or RA.
Aside from this, teaching airmanship is a complete separate issue to using technology to assist with situational awareness if this were to become the case.
Without debating whether or not tcas should be fitted into all aircraft, there would not be RA's if operated in TA only mode inside the GAAP. Waste of time having TCAS if you're going to set it to TA upon entering the GAAP? I'm sure the pilots of either of the aircraft in this case wouldn't agree with that. It would've been invaluable - TA or RA.
Aside from this, teaching airmanship is a complete separate issue to using technology to assist with situational awareness if this were to become the case.