Clearances for VFR in ADF control zones
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Clearances for VFR in ADF control zones
We have seen a fair bit of debate lately regarding certain military controlled airspace, and without this one being trashed would those who use these zones like to comment on the variations and acceptability of the clearances given or rejected at the various zones around Australia.
Assuming there is a real problem at Willy, lets compare this to the others, and mainly those in busier areas around Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Townsville or Darwin. Yes Sherger does not count!
See if there really is a REAL problem or not.
Do not bring in garbage about recent bad wx decissions ending in prangs, just real world experience.
I have thought about this a bit over the last day or so, and even wonder if places like around Willy are more a problem in a faster machine as you have little time to deal with everything? A bit like departure from YBAF heading west!
BTW..... None of the Mil zones I have been through have ever given me a problem, of course that has not included the one north of Sydney. None of these should be too scary for a new PPL or an older infrequent flyer.
J
Good work so far keep it up! Any newbies feel free to comment.
Assuming there is a real problem at Willy, lets compare this to the others, and mainly those in busier areas around Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Townsville or Darwin. Yes Sherger does not count!
See if there really is a REAL problem or not.Do not bring in garbage about recent bad wx decissions ending in prangs, just real world experience.
I have thought about this a bit over the last day or so, and even wonder if places like around Willy are more a problem in a faster machine as you have little time to deal with everything? A bit like departure from YBAF heading west!
BTW..... None of the Mil zones I have been through have ever given me a problem, of course that has not included the one north of Sydney. None of these should be too scary for a new PPL or an older infrequent flyer.
J
Good work so far keep it up! Any newbies feel free to comment.
Last edited by Jabawocky; 23rd Nov 2008 at 00:03. Reason: improving the topic content
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to the AMB controllers. I fly VFR through there to/from YBAF up to ten times a week and never come across any really problems. There is no problem keeping you away from the C-17 or F-111 circuit traffic.
Grandpa Aerotart
I have flown through Willy in my Bonanza lots of times. Complete non issue...arrive a specified point, call on specified frequency and then comply with clearance.
Exactly the same as every other CTA, civil or mil, in Australia.
Exactly the same as every other CTA, civil or mil, in Australia.
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From the other side of the fence- agree totally, have heard very few knock-backs for civ traffic by ATC, only then when a/c had no working transponder with weather less than VMC and Mil IFR traffic in the area. This was in Nowra and it's generally a LOT quieter than Willy however.
Gets interesting though when someone decides to blunder in without a clearance, with transponder on.
and suddenly doing a 180 when approach asks them what their intentions are...
Gets interesting though when someone decides to blunder in without a clearance, with transponder on.
and suddenly doing a 180 when approach asks them what their intentions are...
Complete non issue...arrive a specified point, call on specified frequency and then comply with clearance.
I must have transitted Willy somewhere between 90 and 100 times and have NEVER been knocked back for clearance in either direction, VFR or IFR, save once when northbound VFR and sent out over Glouster at 10,000 due MIL traffic somewhere in the SW corner. No big deal can't really remember it, just complied and got on with it. It was a nice day and I enjoyed the flying.
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I flew through the Tindal control zone VFR every day last week (and several times a week for months now). There is an exercise going on up here at the moment with a whole swag of military aircraft including F/A 18s, F111s, C17s, C130s and Caribous. There have been times where we've had multiple F/A 18 arrivals and departures in a short period sharing the same piece of sky with several 210s, GA8s, 206s, Kingairs, 310s and Barons.
Want to know how many times I've been knocked back for a clearance?
None
Want to know how much holding I've had to do?
None
Want to know how hard it is to get in and out of there considering the traffic and the beginnings of some interesting wet season build ups?
Not at all
All of the Tindal controllers have treated me fantastically even during periods when its obvious that the stress level at the other end of the radio set is high and rising. Great work on their part every time
I'd have to say that my only criticism so far would be that perhaps that military controllers tend to have fairly optimistic perceptions of what a light, unpressurised piston single or twin can do in terms of decent profile and speed control. There have been a few occasions (and more than a few in Darwin) where I've been asked cleared a visual approach while already on a base position but have been held up at 4000 or so feet for traffic seperation. That's not really practical, though I've never been knocked back nor treated improperly when I've consequently requested extra track miles or offered to join crosswind onto the opposite side circuit to help out with both traffic separation and maintaining the integrity of my passengers ear drums.
Want to know how many times I've been knocked back for a clearance?
None
Want to know how much holding I've had to do?
None
Want to know how hard it is to get in and out of there considering the traffic and the beginnings of some interesting wet season build ups?
Not at all
All of the Tindal controllers have treated me fantastically even during periods when its obvious that the stress level at the other end of the radio set is high and rising. Great work on their part every time
I'd have to say that my only criticism so far would be that perhaps that military controllers tend to have fairly optimistic perceptions of what a light, unpressurised piston single or twin can do in terms of decent profile and speed control. There have been a few occasions (and more than a few in Darwin) where I've been asked cleared a visual approach while already on a base position but have been held up at 4000 or so feet for traffic seperation. That's not really practical, though I've never been knocked back nor treated improperly when I've consequently requested extra track miles or offered to join crosswind onto the opposite side circuit to help out with both traffic separation and maintaining the integrity of my passengers ear drums.
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Darwin
Accumulated over 2000hrs flying in and out of Darwin. The only problems I ever had was with tower controllers under training giving "challenging" clearances. Exercise a bit of airmanship and captains perogative and problem fixed. Maybe we should be doing more in training to "de-sensitise" pilots to controlled airspace, both civil and military and reinforce the "command" aspect of the pilot licence.
Last edited by flying-spike; 23rd Nov 2008 at 00:29.
Student pilot out of YBAF, have travelled through AMB many many many times and can't say i've ever had a real problem, except once when they offered me a ten minute wait and being a pretty inexperienced pilot i decided not to wait, blundered around and slipped into airspace by accident!! Controllers were really good in this occasion when i explained that i was a training pilot on a training flight and guided me back through without a real fuss even with C-17s buzzing about! And none of the clearances given to me have been unreasonable nor have i been unable to comply with them even with my low experience.
Real big thumbs up to the AMB boys and a girls in ATC who have to deal with a fair bit of student traffic bumbling through on top of the usual VFR, you do a great job, a number of times i've even gotten a pretty good close look at the C-17s and F-111s which is a real testament to their ability to squeeze us through and reduce delays!
Real big thumbs up to the AMB boys and a girls in ATC who have to deal with a fair bit of student traffic bumbling through on top of the usual VFR, you do a great job, a number of times i've even gotten a pretty good close look at the C-17s and F-111s which is a real testament to their ability to squeeze us through and reduce delays!
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When I was a PPL holder I transited WLM many times, both via the coastal and inland routes. I never had any problems obtaining a clearance.
Along a similar line, when I was instructing MANY of my trainees used the VFR routes, particularly coastal, both during the latter stages of nav training (circa 50hrs experience) and once fully licenced. All seemed to have little difficulty dealing with it, both during training (and afterwards, based on feedback).
It's just not that hard!
If you ask me what I think of how IFR's are treated by WLM ATC, that's another story!
Along a similar line, when I was instructing MANY of my trainees used the VFR routes, particularly coastal, both during the latter stages of nav training (circa 50hrs experience) and once fully licenced. All seemed to have little difficulty dealing with it, both during training (and afterwards, based on feedback).
It's just not that hard!
If you ask me what I think of how IFR's are treated by WLM ATC, that's another story!
There you go Jaba!
There is nothing hard about transiting through ADF's in Oz. All the above posts prove once again that there is only one person on Pprune having issues about it. Do not even have to give you a hint who it is. 
His posts make good entartainment sometimes though...
His posts make good entartainment sometimes though...
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Goday sms
Luv ya work!
Yes its true. I prefer CTA everyday, but I just wanted to prove the point to Dick and others without the thread being binned that you can have a debate about ATC services without all the hype that gets out of hand. One Mod actually told me this morning this thread would not last.............. so far so good so, if you want to pad it out with more posts do so, the more feedback the better. It just might get a few points driven home to those that need it. And in particular those newer PPL's that may actually be afraid or not so happy with using CTA and do put themselves in less favourable country.
Cheers!
J
Edited to make more sense & be more descriptive. note to self do not do things in a hurry
Luv ya work!
Yes its true. I prefer CTA everyday, but I just wanted to prove the point to Dick and others without the thread being binned that you can have a debate about ATC services without all the hype that gets out of hand. One Mod actually told me this morning this thread would not last.............. so far so good so, if you want to pad it out with more posts do so, the more feedback the better. It just might get a few points driven home to those that need it. And in particular those newer PPL's that may actually be afraid or not so happy with using CTA and do put themselves in less favourable country.
Cheers!
J
Edited to make more sense & be more descriptive. note to self do not do things in a hurry
Last edited by Jabawocky; 23rd Nov 2008 at 04:52.
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I have had trouble with both Willy and Amberly. Have been held at Nobby's? in a rough as guts 40 knot westerly, I was tracking northbound at 500' over water, that was a year or so ago. There was no other traffic on Willy approach.
A month or so ago I was held for half an hour outside Amberly, I was trying to operate about ten miles to the north of AMB up to 500' above ground. AMB were notified the day before, I was told on the phone half an hour before I took off AMB was not active then as I approached I called anyway and was told to hold. There were two 111's landed after the half hour holding then AMB shut down, I had a transponder with appropriate or allocated code. I was no threat to inbound traffic and was operating 1500' below their path.
A couple of years ago I was diverted around Nowra, it was early (befor nine am) on a weekday, there was also no other traffic on the frequency. I was tracking northbound over water at 500.
I have been through military maybe six times in the last couple of years, I avoid them if I possibly can.
A month or so ago I was held for half an hour outside Amberly, I was trying to operate about ten miles to the north of AMB up to 500' above ground. AMB were notified the day before, I was told on the phone half an hour before I took off AMB was not active then as I approached I called anyway and was told to hold. There were two 111's landed after the half hour holding then AMB shut down, I had a transponder with appropriate or allocated code. I was no threat to inbound traffic and was operating 1500' below their path.
A couple of years ago I was diverted around Nowra, it was early (befor nine am) on a weekday, there was also no other traffic on the frequency. I was tracking northbound over water at 500.
I have been through military maybe six times in the last couple of years, I avoid them if I possibly can.
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I am struggling to recall being held anywhere, other than an orbit prior to crossing YBBN.
have been told to remain OCTA while they get other stuff done, but the clearance arrives by the time I need it and never had to duck and weave.
I do know folk in Sydney that avoid the Willy CTA if they can, but thats not to say its a road block. I will try to find out more.
Any others find it hard to transit?
J
have been told to remain OCTA while they get other stuff done, but the clearance arrives by the time I need it and never had to duck and weave.
I do know folk in Sydney that avoid the Willy CTA if they can, but thats not to say its a road block. I will try to find out more.
Any others find it hard to transit?
J
I go in and out of Townsville both IFR and VFR and have no complaints. With rare exception - always looked after well even when they are shooting at stuff in the many Restricted Areas around YBTL, and I try to help with the flow wherever possible - but I wish they would NOT refer to me as a Baron!
Approach controller did get a bit precious a few weeks ago when I proceeded to track direct to my destination after competing the required turn on departure (left hand turn off 01 for a TL-MA track). 99.999% of the time this is what I am told to do, this time I got chipped for not intercepting my departure track within 5 nm. Fair enough - I was in the wrong, but the difference could only have been 1 nm at most. The "I'll let it go this time" was not necessary! So now I track to intercept outbound track within 5 nm every time, by the book, and as soon as the Appr controller realises what I am doing they tell me to track direct from present position!!! Go figure!
Big improvement from a few years ago when VFR traffic got scattered to all points of the compass when an RAAF aircraft called taxying or inbound. In the worse example of this I was radar vectored off a 10 mile final for Rwy 01 after a Herc called 40 nm out inbound - and finally landed on 07 about 20 min later.
Then there was the radar vector that would have put me into the side of a mountain, but that's a whole other story!
Haven't flown VFR through Amberley when active for 26 years - but don't recall it being any big deal!
Dr
Approach controller did get a bit precious a few weeks ago when I proceeded to track direct to my destination after competing the required turn on departure (left hand turn off 01 for a TL-MA track). 99.999% of the time this is what I am told to do, this time I got chipped for not intercepting my departure track within 5 nm. Fair enough - I was in the wrong, but the difference could only have been 1 nm at most. The "I'll let it go this time" was not necessary! So now I track to intercept outbound track within 5 nm every time, by the book, and as soon as the Appr controller realises what I am doing they tell me to track direct from present position!!! Go figure!
Big improvement from a few years ago when VFR traffic got scattered to all points of the compass when an RAAF aircraft called taxying or inbound. In the worse example of this I was radar vectored off a 10 mile final for Rwy 01 after a Herc called 40 nm out inbound - and finally landed on 07 about 20 min later.
Then there was the radar vector that would have put me into the side of a mountain, but that's a whole other story!
Haven't flown VFR through Amberley when active for 26 years - but don't recall it being any big deal!
Dr
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OK Cec, I'll bite!
The big picture may have been different to what thought you could or could not hear. Nowra may have had Jindaviks flying around, who knows? Amberley may have had no-com aircraft buzzing about. And WLM approach may not have had anyone you could hear on freq, but maybe the aircraft were with the tower on final for an instrument approach? It is Approach's job to separate and sequence IFR arrivals from other traffic (usually). That does not mean they are on Approach's frequency. The circuit area, generally, goes out to 5NM but the aircraft will call TWR at about 10NM. Or they could have been on no-retransmit UHF operations! Who knows?
Point is, just as we can't tell what is exactly going on in the cockpit, sometime aircrew don't have the big picture either.
As a professional ATC, I can say without a doubt that no one is ever held without a reason. If you were genuinely concerned, ask for a phone number and ring ATC. But instead of asking 'Why wasn't I cleared through immediately?' start off with 'Not sure what the hold up was, but would there have been any way in which I could have assisted in getting a clearance more quicckly?'
Cheers,
NFR.
The big picture may have been different to what thought you could or could not hear. Nowra may have had Jindaviks flying around, who knows? Amberley may have had no-com aircraft buzzing about. And WLM approach may not have had anyone you could hear on freq, but maybe the aircraft were with the tower on final for an instrument approach? It is Approach's job to separate and sequence IFR arrivals from other traffic (usually). That does not mean they are on Approach's frequency. The circuit area, generally, goes out to 5NM but the aircraft will call TWR at about 10NM. Or they could have been on no-retransmit UHF operations! Who knows?
Point is, just as we can't tell what is exactly going on in the cockpit, sometime aircrew don't have the big picture either.
As a professional ATC, I can say without a doubt that no one is ever held without a reason. If you were genuinely concerned, ask for a phone number and ring ATC. But instead of asking 'Why wasn't I cleared through immediately?' start off with 'Not sure what the hold up was, but would there have been any way in which I could have assisted in getting a clearance more quicckly?'
Cheers,
NFR.
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Jabawocky,
From my little part of the world I've observed the following (which is probably systemic, rather than individual and NOT taking a shot at military ATC). This being observed over 14+ years of operating into YWLM:
1. Apparent lack of appreciation of standard turboprop descent profiles, leading to excessive intermediate descent limitations at altitude. Such limits then requiring extra manoeuvring/track miles (and higher workload to both the ATCO and aircraft crew);
2. Apparently poor capability to handle a moderate number of IFR's compared with civil ATC;
3. Excessively long co-ordination times (on the ground), ie. getting a release. Understandable when there is a recovery under way, but more often than not there was maybe 1 or 2 other civils in the airspace (see point 2).
4. Late (and sometimes "unusual") changes to clearances when on Approach/TWR.
Overall, I had "less confidence" in the system when operating IFR under military ATC. Make of that what you will.
As I mentioned previously Jabawocky: I'm not taking a swipe at the ATCO's, merely posting my observations over the past decade or so. Once again I reiterate I NEVER had a problem when operating VFR via the lanes.
From my little part of the world I've observed the following (which is probably systemic, rather than individual and NOT taking a shot at military ATC). This being observed over 14+ years of operating into YWLM:
1. Apparent lack of appreciation of standard turboprop descent profiles, leading to excessive intermediate descent limitations at altitude. Such limits then requiring extra manoeuvring/track miles (and higher workload to both the ATCO and aircraft crew);
2. Apparently poor capability to handle a moderate number of IFR's compared with civil ATC;
3. Excessively long co-ordination times (on the ground), ie. getting a release. Understandable when there is a recovery under way, but more often than not there was maybe 1 or 2 other civils in the airspace (see point 2).
4. Late (and sometimes "unusual") changes to clearances when on Approach/TWR.
Overall, I had "less confidence" in the system when operating IFR under military ATC. Make of that what you will.
As I mentioned previously Jabawocky: I'm not taking a swipe at the ATCO's, merely posting my observations over the past decade or so. Once again I reiterate I NEVER had a problem when operating VFR via the lanes.
DBTW
Is that a positive or negative input? So far i have only observed 1 negative, everyone else seem to manage negotiating the "big bad" ADF's. 
Still standing by for the "Man" with his comment
Still standing by for the "Man" with his comment