How does one get their command on RPT these days
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lol, not intended towards CRM, the point was raised of a F/O under ICUS being corrected in the decision making process in the course of duty, and therefore unable to log ICUS. I am simply reversing the situation and pointing out does the Captain still log Captain time if he makes a wrong decision and is corrected also?! Does the Capt now put down 5mins of ICUS time? get real.
Its exactly what it says it is "...under supervision"
Seems to be a lot of fuss over ICUS here as to who and when has a right to it.
Sure I've pointed out the requirements for positions, but why are there some getting in knots over it as if it is such hallowed ground to be protected?
It seems to me different countries/authorities treat the earning of it differently, and so with a global workforce and our experiences meeting here, those different regs are showing up.
...same as any other in the EU...
Its exactly what it says it is "...under supervision"
Seems to be a lot of fuss over ICUS here as to who and when has a right to it.
Sure I've pointed out the requirements for positions, but why are there some getting in knots over it as if it is such hallowed ground to be protected?
It seems to me different countries/authorities treat the earning of it differently, and so with a global workforce and our experiences meeting here, those different regs are showing up.
From your responses so far it appears that no governance has been adopted by your airline in this respect!
Last edited by DeltaT; 30th Oct 2008 at 02:42.
Very interesting debate! One that shouldn't be exclusive to RPT HCAOC.
In my company we are operating an aircraft that falls in to Transport Category and requires a HCAOC but we are almost exclusively operating under 'Airwork'. This changes the ballpark quite drastically as an FO looking for an upgrade has no real hindrances in the regs.
He/she doesn't require an ATPL in full if the aircraft is strictly operated under 'Airwork' ie no pax carrying. This also helps in the area of building command, as provided he/she has a command endorsement on type they can quite legally fly from the LHS (ICUS) with a C&T Captain until they have the required time/experience.
So the only restrictions really placed on an F/O looking for an upgrade are those outlined in the company's AOC and those placed on the company by our primary client. As we know the above are usually able to be palpitated to suit the company's needs.
Would the command time on type, multi-command, night hours etc ever really need to be altered? Probaly not as our operation really needs Captains (and FOs for that matter) that can think 'outside the square', so generally speaking 'more is better' and a Captain under training won't be let loose until they and the C&T Captain are completely comfortable.
In my company we are operating an aircraft that falls in to Transport Category and requires a HCAOC but we are almost exclusively operating under 'Airwork'. This changes the ballpark quite drastically as an FO looking for an upgrade has no real hindrances in the regs.
He/she doesn't require an ATPL in full if the aircraft is strictly operated under 'Airwork' ie no pax carrying. This also helps in the area of building command, as provided he/she has a command endorsement on type they can quite legally fly from the LHS (ICUS) with a C&T Captain until they have the required time/experience.
So the only restrictions really placed on an F/O looking for an upgrade are those outlined in the company's AOC and those placed on the company by our primary client. As we know the above are usually able to be palpitated to suit the company's needs.
Would the command time on type, multi-command, night hours etc ever really need to be altered? Probaly not as our operation really needs Captains (and FOs for that matter) that can think 'outside the square', so generally speaking 'more is better' and a Captain under training won't be let loose until they and the C&T Captain are completely comfortable.
Quote:
"...provided he/she has a command endorsement on type they can quite legally fly from the LHS (ICUS) with a C&T Captain until they have the required time/experience."
Agree 100% with you Sarcs. The only real difference with RPT>5700kg of course is the candidate also needs to hold an ATPL. The command requirements for that can be satisfied under Para 2.1.9 ICAO Annex 1 which allows ICUS for this purpose from the RHS!
The Command requirements for the AOC however are a bit more problematic. The scenerio you quoted can be applied to this without any legal impediment whatsoever, but at a cost! (full time Check and/or Training Captain in the RHS).
And cost is what this is all about.
"...provided he/she has a command endorsement on type they can quite legally fly from the LHS (ICUS) with a C&T Captain until they have the required time/experience."
Agree 100% with you Sarcs. The only real difference with RPT>5700kg of course is the candidate also needs to hold an ATPL. The command requirements for that can be satisfied under Para 2.1.9 ICAO Annex 1 which allows ICUS for this purpose from the RHS!
The Command requirements for the AOC however are a bit more problematic. The scenerio you quoted can be applied to this without any legal impediment whatsoever, but at a cost! (full time Check and/or Training Captain in the RHS).
And cost is what this is all about.
Krusty there is no cost when C&Trainer is already rostered with the FO and they basically do the ICUS on live jobs.
ICUS in the above scenario is invaluable but what ICUS fails to address is the full responsibilities of the PIC. You might be a great 'in flight' commander but we all know the role of a Captain goes way beyond the confines of the cockpit. It's a bit different when your neck is the one on the chopping block.
ICUS in the above scenario is invaluable but what ICUS fails to address is the full responsibilities of the PIC. You might be a great 'in flight' commander but we all know the role of a Captain goes way beyond the confines of the cockpit. It's a bit different when your neck is the one on the chopping block.
Totally agree Sarcs, and I hear what you are saying. The issue for LCAOC RPT operators of A/C>5700kg however is very much one of costs. These clowns have "solved" their pilot shortage by employing the only pilots that will now accept the shamefull T&C's on offer. Cadets and low time wannabes (no offence intended, but it is a fact). This has resulted in the bizzare situation where there is a surplus of pilots (at least according to one out of touch airline manager) but due to the critical shortage of Captains and upgradeable F/O's, the cancellation of flights are still a daily event!
The Check and training staff at these carriers are flat out with recurrent and endorsement training, so none are spare to sit in the RHS while pilots, although qualified for the line, go through the process in the LHS in an effort to build the number of hours (Multi-IFR Command) required to satisfy the command requirements of the LCAOC. As far as I can see this is the only legal way of doing so, although I do take your point about it not being the whole story!
What they (the operators) want is to simply have these inexperienced people log ICUS from the RHS during normal line ops with a normal line Captain "in attendance" in the LHS, just because it's their (the F/O's) sector! It's a crock!
A lot has been said from some HCAOC F/O's about it being acceptable. My question is, what REG says it's acceptable? And there in lies the operators, and CASA's problem.
The Check and training staff at these carriers are flat out with recurrent and endorsement training, so none are spare to sit in the RHS while pilots, although qualified for the line, go through the process in the LHS in an effort to build the number of hours (Multi-IFR Command) required to satisfy the command requirements of the LCAOC. As far as I can see this is the only legal way of doing so, although I do take your point about it not being the whole story!
What they (the operators) want is to simply have these inexperienced people log ICUS from the RHS during normal line ops with a normal line Captain "in attendance" in the LHS, just because it's their (the F/O's) sector! It's a crock!
A lot has been said from some HCAOC F/O's about it being acceptable. My question is, what REG says it's acceptable? And there in lies the operators, and CASA's problem.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 31st Oct 2008 at 01:17.
Krusty I'm hearing you! I don't believe the regulators of the world originally came up with the concept of logging ICUS in order that airlines could get pilots log books upto the (a) the regs requirements and (b) the company's AOC reqs.
Are Captains aware that FOs are logging ICUS from the RHS while they are PIC? Or are these Captains designated company Supervisory Pilots? Either way it totally goes against the principles of ICUS being an opportunity for a less experienced pilot to gain some valuable time in the 'command seat' ie LHS.
Are Captains aware that FOs are logging ICUS from the RHS while they are PIC? Or are these Captains designated company Supervisory Pilots? Either way it totally goes against the principles of ICUS being an opportunity for a less experienced pilot to gain some valuable time in the 'command seat' ie LHS.
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Logging Command whilst not actually being in command.....priceless!
Your Honour, I was not in command!
Your Honour, I was not in command!
bbbbbbzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
