How does one get their command on RPT these days
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"IC53" the whole basis of what we have learnt in aviation since day one is based upon one thing, EXPERIENCE,something you cannot short curcuit or buy. You have yr opinion of what's required that's fine we all do.
"MACH082" you saved me the trouble to get thru to some that will never know the true worth of the word hard earned & respected experience.
CW
"MACH082" you saved me the trouble to get thru to some that will never know the true worth of the word hard earned & respected experience.
CW
Delta T
Your operations manuals(s) should outline the purpose for the logging of ICUS from the right seat.
If it says something like "because the regs say we can" well fine. If it is something more specific (like the examples I have given) then I am curious as to what they may be. The reason, is because I am doubtfull that the logging of ICUS from the right seat would be carried out without some sort of due process. The justification of that process is usually outlined in some form of documentation.
If you don't know, then fine. If you do, I would like to know.
That's all!
Your operations manuals(s) should outline the purpose for the logging of ICUS from the right seat.
If it says something like "because the regs say we can" well fine. If it is something more specific (like the examples I have given) then I am curious as to what they may be. The reason, is because I am doubtfull that the logging of ICUS from the right seat would be carried out without some sort of due process. The justification of that process is usually outlined in some form of documentation.
If you don't know, then fine. If you do, I would like to know.
That's all!
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because the regs say we can
As I have made reference to in other threads, interestingly with ATPL and 500 ICUS you can be P1 in low capacity RPT according to the regs, and dispite the pilot shortage (past or present) many companies in Auz have kept a 500 P1 multi requirement, which is tougher than what the regs require.
Go figure.
Thanks Delta T.
We'll have to agree to disagree on what the regs say with ref to LCAOC's and the logging of ICUS to satisfy the 500 Multi-IFR requirements.
Regards,
Krusty
We'll have to agree to disagree on what the regs say with ref to LCAOC's and the logging of ICUS to satisfy the 500 Multi-IFR requirements.
Regards,
Krusty
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If its not completely clear in the regs then its a balls up. In NZ for instance, you could rewrite the whole AIP starting page 1 para 1 and do everyone in the industry, not educated to post graduate Legal leval, a huge favour
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Any RPT company / airline with enough prescence can hit casa up and eventually change regs or get dispensations, and that is what is likely to happen. Nay-sayers can sit there and say it won`t happen but time will tell. Aviation is this country has reached the state where there aren`t many options left. Gone are the days of high pay, lots of time off, and being considered almighty for having some bars on your shoulders. I love the job to death but people on this forum need to start being realistic about what is happening to the industry.
Just look at the T&C`s for V Austrailia - And there are people lining up for interviews...
Just look at the T&C`s for V Austrailia - And there are people lining up for interviews...
There's one thing your forgetting M.L.
The inexorable reduction in T&C's, along with the now "everyday" nature of flying in general, is the reason we do not have pilots with the necessary experience rolling up at the front door. In fact it is the reason that young Australians have deserted the profession in the first place.
I know! Lets continue with the mindset that has lead us to this place, and simply reduce the requirements untill we are able to attract those with the job prospects lower than the average labourer. They'll be gratefull for whatever we give them. After all, you can teach a monkey to fly. They did it with Mercury. Not with Gemini or Appolo though, mmm...
As for VA, I'd be careful in using that as an example. Just because the niave and wishful thinkers feel it's a good idea, doesn't mean the thing will fly!
The inexorable reduction in T&C's, along with the now "everyday" nature of flying in general, is the reason we do not have pilots with the necessary experience rolling up at the front door. In fact it is the reason that young Australians have deserted the profession in the first place.
I know! Lets continue with the mindset that has lead us to this place, and simply reduce the requirements untill we are able to attract those with the job prospects lower than the average labourer. They'll be gratefull for whatever we give them. After all, you can teach a monkey to fly. They did it with Mercury. Not with Gemini or Appolo though, mmm...
As for VA, I'd be careful in using that as an example. Just because the niave and wishful thinkers feel it's a good idea, doesn't mean the thing will fly!
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 25th Oct 2008 at 07:23.
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Command
Krusty,
At my lot, one of the minimum criteria for command training is 3150hrs aeronautical experience. So one must assume that logging ICUS once the 1500hrs AE required for an ATPL has been achieved is done to build up to 3150. You could do it without logging ICUS it would just take longer.
Hope that helps.
At my lot, one of the minimum criteria for command training is 3150hrs aeronautical experience. So one must assume that logging ICUS once the 1500hrs AE required for an ATPL has been achieved is done to build up to 3150. You could do it without logging ICUS it would just take longer.
Hope that helps.
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Time to Command
Shortest route to command:
1. Turn up on time, every time.
2. Dont go sick.
3. Pass base checks/route checks/sims.
4. Never, never , never refuse to fly on a day off, (within the rules of course).
Simple.
1. Turn up on time, every time.
2. Dont go sick.
3. Pass base checks/route checks/sims.
4. Never, never , never refuse to fly on a day off, (within the rules of course).
Simple.
Smoka - you got it in one. No mention of minimum hours, either. But the previous post with the 3150 hours is interesting also. What an odd number. Why not 3000, or 3500? Was this an example of a Company massaging figures to make the requirement fit the available experience on the day the OM amendment was written?
Minimum hours are as arbitrary as so many other numbers in aviation. For command, it's ability that counts. I have flown with 20,000 hour pilots who were useless to the point of being dangerous, and 2,000 hour pilots well and truly capable of command. So, pass those checkrides; keep your Company out of the newspapers, and wait your turn.
Minimum hours are as arbitrary as so many other numbers in aviation. For command, it's ability that counts. I have flown with 20,000 hour pilots who were useless to the point of being dangerous, and 2,000 hour pilots well and truly capable of command. So, pass those checkrides; keep your Company out of the newspapers, and wait your turn.
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Happy Bandit
Don't know about the QF737 FOs, but 767/A330/A380 and 744 FOs all have command endorsements with CIRs so ICUS is good to go on PF sectors. ,You are correct in that if you don't have a command endorsement you cannot log ICUS.
Krusty 34
Who knows why QF want us to log ICUS. Quite frankly....I don't really give a ****. Why do you think I would have an 'agenda' in loggin ICUS????? My 8 years in GA have given me plenty of multi command and with an ATPL for the last 5 years I dont think I am too worried about hours etc. And we all know that pretty much all operators around the world don't recognise ICUS anyway. So maybe I am logging ICUS because I have been advised to by the company. How about you ring Peter Wilson for me and find out. Let me know will you.
Why is everyone getting so worked up about all this? Why are you all so worried about who is logging what? Does it really matter to YOUR position in aviation???
Don't know about the QF737 FOs, but 767/A330/A380 and 744 FOs all have command endorsements with CIRs so ICUS is good to go on PF sectors. ,You are correct in that if you don't have a command endorsement you cannot log ICUS.
Krusty 34
Who knows why QF want us to log ICUS. Quite frankly....I don't really give a ****. Why do you think I would have an 'agenda' in loggin ICUS????? My 8 years in GA have given me plenty of multi command and with an ATPL for the last 5 years I dont think I am too worried about hours etc. And we all know that pretty much all operators around the world don't recognise ICUS anyway. So maybe I am logging ICUS because I have been advised to by the company. How about you ring Peter Wilson for me and find out. Let me know will you.
Why is everyone getting so worked up about all this? Why are you all so worried about who is logging what? Does it really matter to YOUR position in aviation???
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"IC53" the whole basis of what we have learnt in aviation since day one is based upon one thing, EXPERIENCE,something you cannot short curcuit or buy.
Tempo:
I never said you had an agenda. I simply asked what I thought was a straight forward question. As for you not giving a ****, well maybe that says something as well.
So, we'll agree to disagree on what's important, and what's not!
As far as Peter Wilson is concerned (whomever that might be), by all means give me his number, and when I find out the reason for you being able to log ICUS from the right seat, I'll gladly pass it on to you. By your own admission you don't know why, maybe we can learn something?
Krusty.
I never said you had an agenda. I simply asked what I thought was a straight forward question. As for you not giving a ****, well maybe that says something as well.
So, we'll agree to disagree on what's important, and what's not!
As far as Peter Wilson is concerned (whomever that might be), by all means give me his number, and when I find out the reason for you being able to log ICUS from the right seat, I'll gladly pass it on to you. By your own admission you don't know why, maybe we can learn something?
Krusty.
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Krusty,
A WA operator has had Cadets (bare CPL into the RH seat) logging ICUS from the RH seat of aircraft, not sure CASA was terribly happy about it.
Still waiting for CASA's ruling on the practice.
A WA operator has had Cadets (bare CPL into the RH seat) logging ICUS from the RH seat of aircraft, not sure CASA was terribly happy about it.
Still waiting for CASA's ruling on the practice.
Thanks Dog'.
It begs the question doesn't it. If they're not happy about it, why aren't they happy about it?
One day we might have the answer. I only hope it doesn't come by way of an inquest. That's usually precipitated by something nasty!
It begs the question doesn't it. If they're not happy about it, why aren't they happy about it?
One day we might have the answer. I only hope it doesn't come by way of an inquest. That's usually precipitated by something nasty!
When PF they are Acting In Command Under Supervision
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by the way I believe in UK, if the real pilot in command disagrees with any decision made by the copilot logging his leg as ICUS, the ICUS is automatically downgraded to copilot time.
What happens when the Capt f**** up, and the F/O quite correctly and quite rightly disagrees with the Captain, points out his mistake and the 'crew' then go with that correct decision, what then?
This is not a discussion about CRM DeltaT. The gradient should be slanted siightly downwards from left to right (in an ideal world at least), but obviously people in either seat have, and will continue to make mistakes.
I think Centaurus is stating in his example that the Captain (the real captain that is) has the final say as to whether the ICUS candidate actually logs time as such. It may vary from operator to operator depending on what form of governance the airline in question chooses to adopt. From your responses so far it appears that no governance has been adopted by your airline in this respect!
If there are procedures (short of simply who's sector it is) by all means feel free to share them with the forum.
I think Centaurus is stating in his example that the Captain (the real captain that is) has the final say as to whether the ICUS candidate actually logs time as such. It may vary from operator to operator depending on what form of governance the airline in question chooses to adopt. From your responses so far it appears that no governance has been adopted by your airline in this respect!
If there are procedures (short of simply who's sector it is) by all means feel free to share them with the forum.