Ppl Mecir

[Integro]

Hello,

I'm getting close to my PPL exam and I'm wanting to go on and do a MECIR. I will be completing my CPL however I thought it would be wise to do the MECIR straight away that way the hours I fly during the rating will contribute to my CPL requirements.

I've also got some friends/family that would like me to fly them around for work and as you can imagine this is only possible to organise if weather isn't going to be a factor.

I'm in Adelaide at the moment and I'm wondering if any one can suggest a school to go to for the rating or if I'm better off going interstate where do you suggest. I'd prefer to do my twin time in a Barron as that's why I'm most likely to fly.

Any ideas, comments or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Integro

[waren9]

Mate, the weather is ALWAYS a factor, whether or not youre MECIR. For a young inexperienced PPL it would make it an even bigger factor because you'll be tempted to go when perhaps you shouldnt.

PPL+IR+light twins+dodgy wx=very uncertain result.

Take it easy mate, learn to fly, do a CPL and have think about an IR if you think you'll do enough to keep current after that.

[Lasiorhinus]

Originally Posted by Integro

close to my PPL exam ... I've also got some friends/family that would like me to fly them around for work

Be careful with that.

I'd prefer to do my twin time in a Barron(sic) as that's why I'm most likely to fly.

Most likely to fly, when, exactly? I'd humbly suggest that you're most likely to fly whatever aircraft your flying school does their training in.


To properly answer your question, though: Talk to your instructor, and see what they advise.

[Integro]

Most likely to fly in about 12 Months. I've been offered a job at the end of my CPL flying a Baron. We're coming in to Summer here in Adelaide so there won't be that much bad weather around anyway.

Thanks for the feedback regarding flying in bad weather. I'm an older pilot than most guys doing the CPL and thus believe that I'd be more incline not to take risks in bad weather than perhaps a younger guy. As much as my life insurance would look after the family in the unfortunate event of a crash I'd really like to see my kids grow up . Not one for taking unnecessary risks.

I do understand what you mean about waiting until after the CPL however does it not make sense to do ratings etc ASAP and have them count towards your CPL hours?!

[QF2]

I think it's a pretty good idea generally because as you say your hours will count towards CPL. Are there a certain number of cross country hours you need to have for the instrument rating though? (correct me if I'm wrong with that). Also, instrument rating straight after doing PPL won't be easy, that's not a lot of experience, but still certainly achievable if you apply yourself. Once you've got it though, pay the weather sufficient respect, as Warren9 said weather will ALWAYS be a factor. Don't be committed to do certain flights in any weather, that's for airlines to deal with. Sure the summer months are ahead as you pointed out which will make things easier, but afternoon thunderstorms aren't the the sort of things you want to be getting in the thick of!

Anyway, have fun and good luck whichever way you go I think it's a good idea getting your instrument rating sooner than later, as long as you're ready to do it.

[smiling monkey]

Originally Posted by QF2

Are there a certain number of cross country hours you need to have for the instrument rating though? (correct me if I'm wrong with that).

From CAO 40.2.1

8.3 The aeronautical experience of an applicant for the issue of a command
instrument rating shall include:
(a) 50 hours cross-country flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) 40 hours instrument time, of which not less than 20 hours shall be
instrument flight time on the category of aircraft for which the rating is
sought; and
(c) 20 hours cross-country instrument time; and
(d) 10 hours dual instrument flight instruction time; and
(e) except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only
operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as
pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is
sought.

If you're a fresh PPL, then it's unlikely that you'll have 50 hours of cross-country PIC time to meet the minimum requirements for the issue of the MECIR.

[gadude]

I tend to disagree, I think age and having a family das make in a lot off cases people getting more responseble behavior.
certainly in my case, and many others I know.
and that dasnt just aply to aviation.

Yes i know still spelling errors in this one, but I am trying lol

As for doing your Meir, right after you ppl, that would be a steep learning curve i think..

[Angle of Attack]

OMG Gadude that spelling was painful to read, but if you were drunk well I'll let you off this time! If not well... no comment return to grade 3! lol!

Not everyone has a CPL before getting their MEIR btw, I think it depends on the individual and experience...

In fact a lot of MECIR holders never get a CPL, how about if you owned your own twin and used it for travelling, no need for a CPL if your not working as a pilot.

[waren9]

For sure, with age comes maturity for most people. My point was that regardless of age, if you are inexperienced then unfortunately you dont know how much you dont know, if you see what I mean.

The net result of that can be a low hour PPL with a shiny new MECIR that can be out of his depth weather decision wise. Most new CPLs are atleast under supervision by default having thier chief pilot or more experienced workmates to looking over thier shoulder and to fall back on for advice.

I dont know your postion but it may be that the Baron is privately owned and you will not have that back up or supervision from others more experienced than you.

The sad fact remains, PPLs in light twins are over-represented in the accident statistics around the world.

All the best.

[glenb]

Be careful doing an Instrument Rating and counting the hours towards your CPL. This will usually only work if you are doing the 200 hour CPL. If you are doing the integrated 150 hour CPL the hours could only be counted if this is a programmed part of the schools 150 hour syllabus which is very rare. Admittedly the 200 hour CPL offers a little more flexibility, but the 150 hour CPL with an Instrument Rating at the end will equate to the same hours with the Instrument rating embedded in the 200 hour CPL.

The taxation office has also ruled that the 200 hour CPL must have GST applied, so i believe this path would be the more expensive option.

In my opinion more prudent to do a GST exempt 150 hour CPL with a night rating included. This will give you the opportunity to work towards the nav requirement, the night requirement, and a working knowledge of the ADF and VOR prior to embarking on the mecir.

[Integro]

Glenb, you really know your stuff! One might assume you're involved in pilot instruction in some way.

Thanks for all the pointers guys. A few varied opinions here, I think with age comes wisdom and part of wisdom is knowing when you don't know enough. I think as a young guy I would have flown in to weather that I knew was sketchy but now I would be overly cautious. If there were a situation that I was at all unsure about I'd be on the phone to a pilot mate or one of the more knowledgeable local pilots. Either way I really do appreciate your concern! It really seems that aviation is one big family, such an awesome industry.

GST is not such an issue for me as my company is paying for my pilots license as part of our "Diversification Strategy". Ahhh the benefit of having a great accountant.

I'm on the 150hr though so I may have to chat with the school about it. Just thought it would be a cleaver way of integrating it in to my training!

Thanks again for all the great advice!

[Cap'n Arrr]

The CIR is a fairly demanding rating, and as has been said there is a 50hrs nav rule as well. I only got the 50 hours nav right near my CPL test.

I would add, however, that if you can include, a NVFR will be very valuable if you can do it and have it count towards the 150hrs course

[Nards]

Something else to be wary of, you mention if you die that your insurance would take care of your family. I would love to know which company this is (PM fine!) as I have not been able to find ANY life insurance that will cover a Private Pilot flying nor a Commercial Pilot on a private flight, flying himself.

Check with you insurance company and if you do find one I would love to know!

Cheers
Nards

[cwc]

perspective is everything integro. I knew two guys once that learnt chinese mandarin fluently in 6 months. People still doubt that they could do that to this day. Yet they handled it fine. If you think you can handle it, do it. On another note I met an apache pilot last week that went from zero to hero in 18 months, now in afagistan( he was out here in leave). I know an ex- airforce instructor thats philosophy is about not hours but quality of training. You can train a dog to sit in an hour or a week, it all depends on a) training methods and b) the dog. Now yes I know its harder than training a dog this flying business but the concept is the same. I started flying and stuggled with x-wind landings. Then the CFI came out one day with me and showed me how he did it, taught me in the way I could learn, and everything just clicked in. Anyone will tell you that you cant do it, often those are the ones that wont try, and we have plenty of those on here.

My opinion( and my one only) know your limitiations and stick to it. The course can be done, and has been done before by many a pilots who want to integrate and many a school who is more interested in teaching a pilot rather than earning money. Ultimatly its your desicion, you will always have people telling you you are wrong- thats more a personality trait than advice I have learnt over the years.

Finally mate, I know I guy in your shoes, with a young family, business etc... Dont let people tell you whether your minimal flying experience will dictate whether you fly in marginal weather. Deciding go has less to do with inflight experince than most would like to admit too. Hopefully you spend a whole lifetime never experiencing that because you were smart enough to know when not to go. He makes desicions not on the pressure to complete a job. He makes desicions based on all factors combined. Thats how he has a business, a family and now doing what he loves to do. You seem to be in the same boat as my freind. Why stuff up all three because you "think" the weather will be ok once you get going eh! Thats his philosophy anyway.

Take it or leave it.

[Integro]

Thanks CWC. After reading what you have to say I had a think about it and there are a lot of people that focus to much on the can't.

The RAAF have their pilots doing some crazy stuff with very very few hours so you're sure right about the quality of the instruction and the ability of the student.

Thanks for a refreshing positive view!!!!

[ReverseFlight]

Integro, I don't think an MECIR is just about not taking risks.

MECIR is new way of precision flying. I've heard stories about highly experienced pilots with thousands of VFR hours behind them but when they jump into the cockpit to learn an initial IR, it reduces the greatest and bravest men to tears.

I've just done my initial MECIR and know the feeling is just that. It truly humbles the human spirit and I take my hat off to the instructors who teach it.

Hope all goes well for you, and happy landings.

[waren9]

Integro

Mate, no one has been negative here on this thread. You asked for some opinions and you got some.

It would seem that just because some of us havent said what you wanted to read, we are negative. I did much of my early commercial work under the supervision of a very old and wise instructor with some very old school ways of thinking.

You dont need to be god to fly IFR. None of us have said that. Those that of us that seem to be applying your brakes come from a background of 'been there, done that'.

I knew about 5 guys who went on with an IR early on in this game and 2 of them are dead. Some years on, the rest of us now read the paper at FL370.

Any comparisons with military students are not valid. Those guys work bloody hard at it full time and are pretty sharp anyway.

Take it or leave it. Either way, all the best.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Mate, I was in your shoes only a few months ago, and after talking to some very experienced people this is what I came up with.

1. Get ALL your CPL and IREX subjects out of the way BEFORE you start any flying. Too many people have flown part-time (due to work or finances), go right to the flight test stage but couldn't go on because they hadn't finished their subjects, or they tried to work full time, study and fly... at least one usually suffers with that strategy.

2. After your PPL and subjects, do you night rating, the hours count towards your CPL and gives you your 10+5 required for the CIR.

3. Build some hours, you need the command time for both, and it's a good consolidation exercise. Be hard on yourself. Don't use a GPS, do your GS checks, CLEAROFF's, Revised ETA's (and get them within 2 mins everytime), keep your altitude +/- 25 feet (CPL and CIR don't give you the tollerances allowed in PPL), get your radio calls down pat - read: should almost be verbatim out of the AIP (again less tollerences with bad phrasology than PPL), fly your plans accurately, work out your drift and 1/60's and most of all, don't accept 2nd best out of yourself and your flying.

4. Once you have managed those things, then think about whether you want to just finish the reletively few hours left for your CPL or get a CIR.

I have talked to many guys and girls, some who did it straight after getting their CPL, other who have waited a while. All agree that the skill level and experience you *think* you have after CPL(let alone PPL) is nothing compared to flying in the real world and that they all realised they knew jack.

Most people who come back to do their CIR will get it close to minimums, whereas fresh CPL'ers can be hit and miss as to whether they will get it in the minimum time.

Just my 2 cents.

[Flyingblind]

WannaBeBiggles,

Excellent post, I'm not in the same situation as integro (yet) but may be in a few more years, your post struck me as summing up what you the others have said marvellously.

Well done and Thank you.

[future.boeing.cpt]

"I've just done my initial MECIR and know the feeling is just that. It truly humbles the human spirit and I take my hat off to the instructors who teach it."

Agree completely.

Indeed, IFR is a completely new set of rules, laws and flying techniques. The first actual IFR flight is the most nervous i think i've ever been, but it was the most amazing feeling.
All you can do is take in our advice, and choose what you think is best for you.

"GST is not such an issue for me as my company is paying for my pilots license as part of our "Diversification Strategy.Most likely to fly in about 12 Months. I've been offered a job at the end of my CPL flying a Baron."

If you have 12 months up your sleeve, and money is not a factor, then don't push yourself, do your CPL first, become a more skillful pilot than you presently are, and be more prepared for the task ahead.

Choose what is best for you and the circumstances considering. None of us can tell you what to do, but there are some profoundly experienced pilots here, and between them all they have seen it ALL.
All you can do is listen, learn, and make a plan that suits you.

Good luck! And have fun. Your IR training is amazing.