1500ft circuits
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Bad Boy
Can’t remember when I last flew strait and level in a circuit
S & L or adding throttle during a decent and landing means I have stuffed up the decent profile and wasting fuel
.
S & L or adding throttle during a decent and landing means I have stuffed up the decent profile and wasting fuel
.
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Just for comparison a military fast jet will fly 1500' on downwind. Spacing about 9000' from the runway centreline. Descent is commenced at the base turn point. In nil wind the BTP is abeam where the finals glide slope will intercept 500'. Speed on downwind anywhere from 160-250kts. This varies subtly with from type to type but is basically as I've outlined. Circuits take about 4-6 minutes each which is the same as oval circuits in CT4's, and PC-9's which fly a closer circuit spacing. Much more efficient than a square circuit. Extending base is a no no at military training airfields as is stuffs up the spacing of all following traffic.
Not saying that any previous posters are wrong just giving some info on how military circuits are flown.
Cheers
Not saying that any previous posters are wrong just giving some info on how military circuits are flown.
Cheers
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Watch out below
Well for my two cents worth, As a Captain of a regional turboprop i thank God that there is a 500' buffer between me and a smaller craft be it fast or slow, i say this as all too common i have seen aircraft enter the curcuit at regional airports beneath me with no radio calls ,this after i have called at 25 nm and 10nm and when joining the curcuit.I tell you this that one day mark my words there will be a midair at a regional aerodrome between rpt and private aircraft,not only do you have aircraft not calling to avoid charges but unfortunately a great many pilots lack situational awareness when it comes to other traffic , especially when the target is travelling at 4 nm a minute on descent.
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I am not going to assume what you are saying but in all instances, VFR/IFR day/night, you must be aware of your minimum height above terrain at all stages of flight as PIC.
It can never be a guessing/assuming game. The consequences can be catastrophic.
Whether pre-flight or in-flight situational awareness you must be in no doubt about your height above terrain, it is the basis of flight training.
But I'm sure you know that...
It can never be a guessing/assuming game. The consequences can be catastrophic.
Whether pre-flight or in-flight situational awareness you must be in no doubt about your height above terrain, it is the basis of flight training.
But I'm sure you know that...
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Would be interested how NOT following a "RECOMMENDATION" will stand up in court
Most ops manuals for Jets/TP will have a "practise inst approach company min(usually 800ft agl), so you can get down if you want to.
Never had a prob with 1500ft circuits, dont really know what the prob is
,circling approaches,however,are a totally different story
Most ops manuals for Jets/TP will have a "practise inst approach company min(usually 800ft agl), so you can get down if you want to.
Never had a prob with 1500ft circuits, dont really know what the prob is
,circling approaches,however,are a totally different story
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NOSIG
I can understand the rules' application to a faster CAT C acft but how about a fast CAT B? Without descending on downwind, which i thinks contradicts the reason for the implamentation of the 1500' >120kt cct, the question becomes do you allow for a greater rate of decent and keep the cct tight, extend the downwind, or don't apply the recommended procedure altogether?
quote.....
A bit different in that one is a VFR cct (1000' or 1500') and the other refers to a IFR cct (max circling speeds..Cat A=100, Cat B=135, Cat C=180 Cat D=205) to keep you within the cicling areas of the aerodrome for the Cat.
Generally don't have a rate of descent greater than 1000fpm (plus other limits) for final.
A good RoD is 3 x G/S for a 3 degree slope, or thereabouts, and that can begin on downwind.
Based on having a stabilized approach for a landing.
Remember the old saying 'can't have a good landing from a bad approach'.
I can understand the rules' application to a faster CAT C acft but how about a fast CAT B? Without descending on downwind, which i thinks contradicts the reason for the implamentation of the 1500' >120kt cct, the question becomes do you allow for a greater rate of decent and keep the cct tight, extend the downwind, or don't apply the recommended procedure altogether?
quote.....
A bit different in that one is a VFR cct (1000' or 1500') and the other refers to a IFR cct (max circling speeds..Cat A=100, Cat B=135, Cat C=180 Cat D=205) to keep you within the cicling areas of the aerodrome for the Cat.
Generally don't have a rate of descent greater than 1000fpm (plus other limits) for final.
A good RoD is 3 x G/S for a 3 degree slope, or thereabouts, and that can begin on downwind.
Based on having a stabilized approach for a landing.
Remember the old saying 'can't have a good landing from a bad approach'.
Last edited by tiptoeturkey; 25th May 2008 at 12:22.
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I fly a cat B aircraft and use a 1,500' circuit but the aircraft has been on a descent from TOD and that continues throughout the circuit so no extending downwind or other such games are necessary.
From TOD to 10 miles from TOUCHDOWN the aircraft (non-pressurised) has been at 500 FPM ROD (although lately with the tailwinds up my clacker I have been using 600'). At the 10 mile point I should be 3,000' AGL and I take approach flap and the ROD then goes to whatever equals 3 degrees. Gear is taken at 5 miles to touchdown and second stage of flap usually on base which is taken at 1,000 AGL and within the cat B circling area. Final stage of flap at 1 mile to touchdown with everything stable.
Please note that the ROD after the first stage of flap will vary according to the speed of the aircraft but once the gear is out the ROD is quite benign and back around what it was on the early descent.
I use this approach everywhere (except during instrument approaches and even then it depends on what sort of approach I am doing and what has to happen on getting visual) for visual approaches, controlled 'dromes (unless they want something different), CTAFs, night approaches into remote communities and it works for me. It has become an SOP for me so that when life is difficult (coming into my home base at night with marginal visibility even in the circuit and a black hole away from the field) I don't have to work out something new when all I want to do is fly the aircraft.
Yes I make the required radio calls (even at 0400 in the bleedin' morning) and because there are a number of gyrocoptors around where I am based I am very cautious during the day. They are equipped with VHF but I am not impressed with some of the flying I have observed. I have found the whole concept of a constant descent easier than having to manage a descent then level off then descend again and it is easier on the passengers.
From TOD to 10 miles from TOUCHDOWN the aircraft (non-pressurised) has been at 500 FPM ROD (although lately with the tailwinds up my clacker I have been using 600'). At the 10 mile point I should be 3,000' AGL and I take approach flap and the ROD then goes to whatever equals 3 degrees. Gear is taken at 5 miles to touchdown and second stage of flap usually on base which is taken at 1,000 AGL and within the cat B circling area. Final stage of flap at 1 mile to touchdown with everything stable.
Please note that the ROD after the first stage of flap will vary according to the speed of the aircraft but once the gear is out the ROD is quite benign and back around what it was on the early descent.
I use this approach everywhere (except during instrument approaches and even then it depends on what sort of approach I am doing and what has to happen on getting visual) for visual approaches, controlled 'dromes (unless they want something different), CTAFs, night approaches into remote communities and it works for me. It has become an SOP for me so that when life is difficult (coming into my home base at night with marginal visibility even in the circuit and a black hole away from the field) I don't have to work out something new when all I want to do is fly the aircraft.
Yes I make the required radio calls (even at 0400 in the bleedin' morning) and because there are a number of gyrocoptors around where I am based I am very cautious during the day. They are equipped with VHF but I am not impressed with some of the flying I have observed. I have found the whole concept of a constant descent easier than having to manage a descent then level off then descend again and it is easier on the passengers.
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5nm final bro! Downwind descent get my two thumbs up 
Speaking of circuits, heard the funniest thing the other day; QF requesting radar vectors for every leg of the circuit - pathetic.
Speaking of circuits, heard the funniest thing the other day; QF requesting radar vectors for every leg of the circuit - pathetic.
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On a more serious note than my previous post, as a glider pilot and tug pilot I do have problems with set altitude circuits, to date to my knowledge circuit altitudes apart from Secondary Control Zones (or what ever they are called these days) have been recommendations only – I will check the docs when I get to the office tomorrow
As a glider pilot – try flying a level circuit, and before some of you go off on tangents, while many gliding operations are from gliding paddocks, there are also many gliding operations conducted from licensed airfields (CTAF) and in rare cases CTAF (R).
As a Tug Pilot – having towed to 2000ft agl which what is considered a standard release height for gliders, and still being in the “circuit” most tug pilots I know make a continuous decent using a miliary style circuit, and even with a mix of traffic I have never experienced any conflicts that could not be sorted out with a bit of common sense and consideration for other airport users.
As a glider pilot – try flying a level circuit, and before some of you go off on tangents, while many gliding operations are from gliding paddocks, there are also many gliding operations conducted from licensed airfields (CTAF) and in rare cases CTAF (R).
As a Tug Pilot – having towed to 2000ft agl which what is considered a standard release height for gliders, and still being in the “circuit” most tug pilots I know make a continuous decent using a miliary style circuit, and even with a mix of traffic I have never experienced any conflicts that could not be sorted out with a bit of common sense and consideration for other airport users.
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Well for my two cents worth, As a Captain of a regional turboprop i thank God that there is a 500' buffer between me and a smaller craft be it fast or slow, i say this as all too common i have seen aircraft enter the curcuit at regional airports beneath me with no radio calls ,this after i have called at 25 nm and 10nm and when joining the curcuit.I tell you this that one day mark my words there will be a midair at a regional aerodrome between rpt and private aircraft,not only do you have aircraft not calling to avoid charges but unfortunately a great many pilots lack situational awareness when it comes to other traffic , especially when the target is travelling at 4 nm a minute on descent.
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Whats your point Hempy, he can fly a plane but he can't spell.. want to make a big deal out of it? 
I suppose you've never made a spelling mistake in your entire life?
I suppose you've never made a spelling mistake in your entire life?
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During line training circuits were at 1000'. . (fast Cat B). . . As I was finishing this was modified to 1500' for CFIT purposes. . .
Circuit join is at 1500' then abeam the threshold, wheels down to go down. . .There was no change to the circuit size or typical RoDs.. Once rolled out on base you were @1000 as per the training!! The bonus now was that you were all set up for a landing without the need to make configuration changes (u/c, pitch or power) - keeping more focussed attention outside for other aircraft and on the runway - especially useful at night when getting into those poorly/dimly lit runways 
It's much less stressful, giving a more stabilised approach (configured from a safe downwind height to the "committed-to-land" height for full flaps selection), more looking out the window time and so I guess safer!?! . . . .
I've not come into conflict or had any hassles with the piston singles at 1000' - they tend to be closer on the downwind leg - depending on their Instructor
Looking back, I would have used this 1500' circuit in the piston twins as well.
start down on say late downwind, abeam the ldg threshold drop gear & head on down (typical), that's exactly what I/we do to avoid high ROD's.
It's much less stressful, giving a more stabilised approach (configured from a safe downwind height to the "committed-to-land" height for full flaps selection), more looking out the window time and so I guess safer!?! . . . .
I've not come into conflict or had any hassles with the piston singles at 1000' - they tend to be closer on the downwind leg - depending on their Instructor
Looking back, I would have used this 1500' circuit in the piston twins as well.
The bit that concerns me, especially in light of flyby's comments, is that when one wishes to overfly the circuit, have a gander at the windsock, and then choose a runway for landing, this is supposed to be at 1500' - to keep a 500 foot buffer between you, and traffic already in the circuit.
So what happens if a 1000' circuit aircraft trundles in, after having broadcast intentions to overfly, and having copied down the inbound regional turboprop joining downwind, yet assuming that their downwind is the same altitude as its downwind, both aware of the presence of the other, but unaware they are at the same height?
So what happens if a 1000' circuit aircraft trundles in, after having broadcast intentions to overfly, and having copied down the inbound regional turboprop joining downwind, yet assuming that their downwind is the same altitude as its downwind, both aware of the presence of the other, but unaware they are at the same height?
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Don't you trust the regional turboprop captain to be using the into wind runway
With broadcast AWIS and/or the agents on the ground they already know what the wind is so they can plan a downwind join, which should be keep them away from the windsock gander airspace. Or even better, a straight in approach that keeps them out of (most of, anyway) the circuit.
Situational awareness must come into play - no one wants an AirProx - the paperwork
You heard the Regional. They heard you. You're both in the circuit so the "See and Avoid" surely would work since you know where each other roughly are - don't have to look at ALL the sky just a wee bit of it.
..... what to do now with those ultralights when I want to do a practice day visual circling approach at 300' ....
With broadcast AWIS and/or the agents on the ground they already know what the wind is so they can plan a downwind join, which should be keep them away from the windsock gander airspace. Or even better, a straight in approach that keeps them out of (most of, anyway) the circuit.
Situational awareness must come into play - no one wants an AirProx - the paperwork
You heard the Regional. They heard you. You're both in the circuit so the "See and Avoid" surely would work since you know where each other roughly are - don't have to look at ALL the sky just a wee bit of it...... what to do now with those ultralights when I want to do a practice day visual circling approach at 300' ....
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Hempy thanks for your correction, i reckon 14 years flying experience allows me a grammatical error occasionally .Any how come fly with me and ill teach you a couple of new words and sentences, like multiple missed approaches at the missed approach point at the minima in imc and icing followed by a diversion to alternate followed by another approach at the alternate getting visual 50' above bingo height then having to co-ordinate with company , passengers , crew ,refuellers, atc,and wife,all the while knowing todays flight is just another day at work.
P.S - My FO was two weeks checked to line ,with less than 1000 hrs total time no atpl and very limited ifr experience.He commented after the second approach that this was the first time he had conducted an approach to the minima in imc.
Such is the life of a regional driver.
P.S - My FO was two weeks checked to line ,with less than 1000 hrs total time no atpl and very limited ifr experience.He commented after the second approach that this was the first time he had conducted an approach to the minima in imc.
Such is the life of a regional driver.
In theory if you do a 1500' circuit, then you would be slightly wider on downwind, but the centreline would be in the same position relative to your wing as it would be at 1000'.
So because of that, the 45deg pt for turning base would also be further out than at 1000', so noone should be descending on anyone, as you are further out than the 1000' guys.
Does mean you don't end up behind a 152 or a Sportstar at 150kts though
BTW Lasior, perhaps if the aircraft on 1500' calls "High Downwind" instead of just downwind? Also, I was taught to overfly at 2000AGL, although my current school teaches 1500AGL overhead. I just make sure to brief my students that at busy regional CTAFs, if they hear Eastern/Sunstate/Rex anything, or something of a similar size, expect it to be at 1500' on downwind.
So because of that, the 45deg pt for turning base would also be further out than at 1000', so noone should be descending on anyone, as you are further out than the 1000' guys.
Does mean you don't end up behind a 152 or a Sportstar at 150kts though
BTW Lasior, perhaps if the aircraft on 1500' calls "High Downwind" instead of just downwind? Also, I was taught to overfly at 2000AGL, although my current school teaches 1500AGL overhead. I just make sure to brief my students that at busy regional CTAFs, if they hear Eastern/Sunstate/Rex anything, or something of a similar size, expect it to be at 1500' on downwind.
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I second FLYBY's comments.
My 2 cents worth; Situational awareness + F'n common sense - there's also an apparatus in your aircraft, usually you'll have 2, they're called radio's - don't be afraid to use, if necessary take controll of the situation i.e. I'll be at 1000', confirm your intentions!
Re IF exposure, Flyby, simular experience just the other day - R/H seat first real approach. If pax new, they'd be mortified.
My 2 cents worth; Situational awareness + F'n common sense - there's also an apparatus in your aircraft, usually you'll have 2, they're called radio's - don't be afraid to use, if necessary take controll of the situation i.e. I'll be at 1000', confirm your intentions!
Re IF exposure, Flyby, simular experience just the other day - R/H seat first real approach. If pax new, they'd be mortified.
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Cap'n Arrrr,
Leave your theory books behind pal, I know plenty of lads who'll safely throw a regional turboprop around well within/inside the circuit spacing of a piston aircraft.
Leave your theory books behind pal, I know plenty of lads who'll safely throw a regional turboprop around well within/inside the circuit spacing of a piston aircraft.
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ah don't let the speeling nazi's faze you 'Cypher' they often opo up 'cause they have little else to contribute.
'flyby' sadly I have to agree with you, there will come a day where 2 shall meet & it won't be in a bar afterwards either!
now now 'airman1' I was wondering when you would mention that CW was thinking of 'adding' words here And I fly 1500' curcuits() not 1000', too scarey down there
hey 'forky' if I see you trying to pass me on down wind & i'm driving a LR35 I'll soon fix that mate, how fast can that funny tailed beast go?
This whole debate about curcuit ()height is predicated on good airmanship & the use of proper R/T, the latter almost no existant at times & not just from the 'farmer browns' out there . Radios ought to be mandatory for ALL airports over a certain rwy length, say 600 mtrs, less than that there are only toy planes that can land on that & it's unlikely you will find traffic at varying Alt's anyway.
Decent at abeam the thresshold works well at 130 kts without having to point the nose down too much. The only trouble with diff curcuit() heights is that we all have to come down some time to meet up!
CW
'flyby' sadly I have to agree with you, there will come a day where 2 shall meet & it won't be in a bar afterwards either!
now now 'airman1' I was wondering when you would mention that CW was thinking of 'adding' words here
And I fly 1500' curcuits() not 1000', too scarey down therehey 'forky' if I see you trying to pass me on down wind & i'm driving a LR35 I'll soon fix that mate, how fast can that funny tailed beast go?
This whole debate about curcuit (
)height is predicated on good airmanship & the use of proper R/T, the latter almost no existant at times & not just from the 'farmer browns' out there . Radios ought to be mandatory for ALL airports over a certain rwy length, say 600 mtrs, less than that there are only toy planes that can land on that & it's unlikely you will find traffic at varying Alt's anyway.Decent at abeam the thresshold works well at 130 kts without having to point the nose down too much. The only trouble with diff curcuit(
) heights is that we all have to come down some time to meet up!CW
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If you operate a turbo prop to the same airport as single engine training aircraft most schools teach their students to overfly at circuit + 500, so thats smack in to the turbo prop circuit pattern.
Its not fun trying to convince the student that they are not clear of you just because they are overflying at 1500 AGL.
So why dont we give up with the 1500 circuit and drop to a 1000, its safer that way.
I would love to know who dreampt up the change and why?
Its not fun trying to convince the student that they are not clear of you just because they are overflying at 1500 AGL.
So why dont we give up with the 1500 circuit and drop to a 1000, its safer that way.
I would love to know who dreampt up the change and why?