Departure questions
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Departure questions
Just wanting to clarify a few questions, hoping someone can help me out:
1) Departing via a SID from jandakot requires climb on the departure rwy heading to 500ft before making a turn to intercept the 308 radial. What should the intercept angle be? Somewhere in aip i think it says you need to intercept departure track within 5nm...
2) Say you were departing YPPH VFR. You received a clearance to "track PH to BIU then FPR...." You where then "21 cleared for takeoff make left turn" Does that "make left turn" authorise you to turn left and track direct to your cleared waypoint from the der, OR does it allow you to make left turn and intercept the PH-BIU track?
3) Departing YPPH IFR via a SID often states that you maintain rwy track until at a certain altitude before you commence a turn (eg to 1500 but not before DER). If departing VFR when can you initiate the turn? I think somewhere in aip it states you SHOULD climb to within 300ft of circuit height before making a turn. But in CARs it states you MUST climb to 500ft before making a turn...
4) When departing a non controlled aerodrome at night, which has a 10nm MSA of say 1500, what is the correct procedure to depart? Because it seems as though there isnt much in the way of obstacle clearance until you are above the MSA of 1500. I suppose you could always look at an IAP chart and look at the circling minima for an approach, then you would know that if you were above the circling minima within the circling area you would be safe. But still what about the initial climb to the circling minima?
haha soo many questions, thanks in advance
1) Departing via a SID from jandakot requires climb on the departure rwy heading to 500ft before making a turn to intercept the 308 radial. What should the intercept angle be? Somewhere in aip i think it says you need to intercept departure track within 5nm...
2) Say you were departing YPPH VFR. You received a clearance to "track PH to BIU then FPR...." You where then "21 cleared for takeoff make left turn" Does that "make left turn" authorise you to turn left and track direct to your cleared waypoint from the der, OR does it allow you to make left turn and intercept the PH-BIU track?
3) Departing YPPH IFR via a SID often states that you maintain rwy track until at a certain altitude before you commence a turn (eg to 1500 but not before DER). If departing VFR when can you initiate the turn? I think somewhere in aip it states you SHOULD climb to within 300ft of circuit height before making a turn. But in CARs it states you MUST climb to 500ft before making a turn...
4) When departing a non controlled aerodrome at night, which has a 10nm MSA of say 1500, what is the correct procedure to depart? Because it seems as though there isnt much in the way of obstacle clearance until you are above the MSA of 1500. I suppose you could always look at an IAP chart and look at the circling minima for an approach, then you would know that if you were above the circling minima within the circling area you would be safe. But still what about the initial climb to the circling minima?
haha soo many questions, thanks in advance
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Off the top of my head (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)
1. As required to intercept within 5nm.
2. Left turn to intercept track
3. 500ft
4. Initial climb to circling minima is protected by the runway splay which goes out a certain number of degrees either side of extended rwy centreline, and at a certain gradient out to a certain number of miles (actually feet). All listed in the RDS section of ERSA and depends on the category of runway used.
1. As required to intercept within 5nm.
2. Left turn to intercept track
3. 500ft
4. Initial climb to circling minima is protected by the runway splay which goes out a certain number of degrees either side of extended rwy centreline, and at a certain gradient out to a certain number of miles (actually feet). All listed in the RDS section of ERSA and depends on the category of runway used.
One more question I've always wondered about.... If you're doing circuits, and go around, then tower tells you to "make early left turn", do you still need to climb to 500' before you turn?
Thats an interesting one. As a tower controller we try to be very concious of the fact that a pilot should not turn before reaching 500'AGL. Thus here we try to avoid using that term unless its actually required. We might say an early turn is available, then its the pilots discretion as to when to turn.
Generally if given a go round you should rejoin the circuit on upwind, which in my mind commences at the upwind threshold of the runway. However sometimes you are easily at 500'AGL or more before even reaching the threshold, hence an early turn to rejoin downwind.
I'm sure there are others with more experience that can shed some light on that one.
Also as a side note, the climb to within 300' of circuit altitude is only at non controlled aerodromes I believe.
Generally if given a go round you should rejoin the circuit on upwind, which in my mind commences at the upwind threshold of the runway. However sometimes you are easily at 500'AGL or more before even reaching the threshold, hence an early turn to rejoin downwind.
I'm sure there are others with more experience that can shed some light on that one.
Also as a side note, the climb to within 300' of circuit altitude is only at non controlled aerodromes I believe.
AWOL a question for twr controller....
Quite often in my ga days we'd be cleared a visual approach 'when within your ccl area' (At night)
Was ok out with low lsalts but in places like CNS and even EN it was a bit of challange with a 2.6nm ccl area from 3700+ feet!
Whats the go with that clearance? I would have presumed the guys would know about the profile before issuing the clearance?
Quite often in my ga days we'd be cleared a visual approach 'when within your ccl area' (At night)
Was ok out with low lsalts but in places like CNS and even EN it was a bit of challange with a 2.6nm ccl area from 3700+ feet!
Whats the go with that clearance? I would have presumed the guys would know about the profile before issuing the clearance?
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Was ok out with low lsalts but in places like CNS and even EN it was a bit of challange with a 2.6nm ccl area from 3700+ feet!
Whats the go with that clearance? I would have presumed the guys would know about the profile before issuing the clearance?
Whats the go with that clearance? I would have presumed the guys would know about the profile before issuing the clearance?
AIP bits:
a. A pilot in command must maintain track/heading on the route progressively authorised by ATC until:
(2) by night,
-- for an IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area; or
-- for a VFR flight, within 3NM of the aerodrome; and
-- the aerodrome is in sight.
(2) by night,
-- for an IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area; or
-- for a VFR flight, within 3NM of the aerodrome; and
-- the aerodrome is in sight.
b. by night:
(1) for an IFR flight:
-- maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or the appropriate step of the DME/GPS Arrival procedure, or 500FT above the lower limit of the CTA, if this is higher; or
-- if being radar vectored, operate not below the last assigned altitude;
until the aircraft is:
-- within the prescribed circling area for the category of aircraft or a higher category, where the limitations of the higher category are complied with, and the aerodrome is in sight; or
-- within 5NM (7NM for a runway equipped with an ILS) of the aerodrome, aligned with the runway centreline and established not below “on slope” on the T-VASIS or PAPI; or
-- within 10NM (14NM for Runways 16L and 34L at Sydney) of the aerodrome, established not below the ILS glide path with less than full scale azimuth deflection.
(2) for a VFR flight:
-- maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight (CAR 174B) until the aircraft is within 3NM of the aerodrome and the aerodrome is in sight.
(1) for an IFR flight:
-- maintain an altitude not less than the route segment LSALT/MSA or the appropriate step of the DME/GPS Arrival procedure, or 500FT above the lower limit of the CTA, if this is higher; or
-- if being radar vectored, operate not below the last assigned altitude;
until the aircraft is:
-- within the prescribed circling area for the category of aircraft or a higher category, where the limitations of the higher category are complied with, and the aerodrome is in sight; or
-- within 5NM (7NM for a runway equipped with an ILS) of the aerodrome, aligned with the runway centreline and established not below “on slope” on the T-VASIS or PAPI; or
-- within 10NM (14NM for Runways 16L and 34L at Sydney) of the aerodrome, established not below the ILS glide path with less than full scale azimuth deflection.
(2) for a VFR flight:
-- maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible for VFR flight (CAR 174B) until the aircraft is within 3NM of the aerodrome and the aerodrome is in sight.
What SM4 Pirate said 
You are right, but we can't authorise descent below the LSALT which we don't always know depending on your route (particularly as a VFR aircraft). So it's circling area or at 3nm depending on your flight rules.
You are right, but we can't authorise descent below the LSALT which we don't always know depending on your route (particularly as a VFR aircraft). So it's circling area or at 3nm depending on your flight rules.
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brns2,
My answers:
1) Not sure what the answer is but I would assume that the expectation is that you would choose an intercept that would get you established on the outbound track by 5 NM.
2) Given that you were cleared to track from PH to BIU, and the takeoff clearance said "make left turn", you MUST turn left and intercept the PH-BIU track within 5 NM. To track direct to BIU from the DER requires a different clearance.
3) If departing from YPPH VFR the applicable law is that from the CARs, which states that you must have climbed to at least 500' above the aerodrome before turning. That reference to "300' below circuit altitude" applies only to aircraft conducting circuits at non-towered aerodromes.
4) You are responsible for terrain clearance when departing any aerodrome (including controlled aerodromes). This means you can do whatever you like (almost) whilst on the way up to your route LSALT. You must conform to any clearance, obviously, and any rule (e.g must be established on track within 5 NM) or local procedure, but apart from that, what you do is up to you. Be aware that the 5 NM rule has nothing to do with terrain clearance!
Strictly speaking, you must study the appropriate topgraphic maps of the area in order to assess the terrain for the purpose of avoiding it during the departure.
Gear in transit,
You may be in a category B aircraft (circling area radius 2.66 NM), but for the purposes of making a visual approach, you may use the circling area of a higher category of aircraft. Category C, for example, uses 4.2 NM. Any requirements that apply to that higher category obviously have to be complied with.
My answers:
1) Not sure what the answer is but I would assume that the expectation is that you would choose an intercept that would get you established on the outbound track by 5 NM.
2) Given that you were cleared to track from PH to BIU, and the takeoff clearance said "make left turn", you MUST turn left and intercept the PH-BIU track within 5 NM. To track direct to BIU from the DER requires a different clearance.
3) If departing from YPPH VFR the applicable law is that from the CARs, which states that you must have climbed to at least 500' above the aerodrome before turning. That reference to "300' below circuit altitude" applies only to aircraft conducting circuits at non-towered aerodromes.
4) You are responsible for terrain clearance when departing any aerodrome (including controlled aerodromes). This means you can do whatever you like (almost) whilst on the way up to your route LSALT. You must conform to any clearance, obviously, and any rule (e.g must be established on track within 5 NM) or local procedure, but apart from that, what you do is up to you. Be aware that the 5 NM rule has nothing to do with terrain clearance!
Strictly speaking, you must study the appropriate topgraphic maps of the area in order to assess the terrain for the purpose of avoiding it during the departure.
Gear in transit,
You may be in a category B aircraft (circling area radius 2.66 NM), but for the purposes of making a visual approach, you may use the circling area of a higher category of aircraft. Category C, for example, uses 4.2 NM. Any requirements that apply to that higher category obviously have to be complied with.
Cat C CCL was always an option, but drawing the short straw every week or so often (That meant flying the BN2) it was a bit tough to make the ole girl comply with cat c speeds..... 
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Thanks guys for helping me out with those questions
Just one other thing.. On a TTF last nite in the remarks section it had "WBD 0.9" ???
Im assuming it has something to do with dewpoint?
Just one other thing.. On a TTF last nite in the remarks section it had "WBD 0.9" ???
Im assuming it has something to do with dewpoint?
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One more question I've always wondered about.... If you're doing circuits, and go around, then tower tells you to "make early left turn", do you still need to climb to 500' before you turn?
Normal Dep = minimum 500FT turn
ATC request early L/R turn = minimum 500FT turn
ATC "Make early L/R turn" = Capt turns the aircraft when safe to do so.
ATC Turn L/R now = Turn immediately if safe to do so.
Important thing here is ATC requesting an early right turn does not authorise a pilot to turn below the 500ft requirement of CAR's.
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First the easy one. WBD 0.9 is indeed how far the dewpoint is below the dry bulb, to give viewers a real appreciation for what 08/07 means, in this case (for e.g.) 08.3/07.4, it could be 07.6/07.4, giving a WBD of 0.2!
I have noted before a difference in opinion about CAR167, as indicated by the posts of MaxspeedSlowdown & Awol57. It says:
unless otherwise instructed by air traffic control...after take-off, maintain the same track from the take-off until the aircraft is 500 feet above the terrain...
I would interpret a request from the tower to be an instruction, and so would turn before 500' if I considered it safe to do so. It doesn't say 'directed', it says 'instructed'. It would remove any possible doubt if they said, "Make an early left turn," but I understand they are leaving some weasel-space for the inquest if some spud tries to turn when they are still on the runway.
It would also help if there were some guidance as to what this rule (and, well, all of them really) was actually aiming to achieve. Is there a magic safety threshold reached at 500' or is it a beaurocratic nicety that if you are not pointing in the same direction as a runway below 500' you are indulging in naughty low flying and should be deprived of some penalty units...
I have noted before a difference in opinion about CAR167, as indicated by the posts of MaxspeedSlowdown & Awol57. It says:
unless otherwise instructed by air traffic control...after take-off, maintain the same track from the take-off until the aircraft is 500 feet above the terrain...
I would interpret a request from the tower to be an instruction, and so would turn before 500' if I considered it safe to do so. It doesn't say 'directed', it says 'instructed'. It would remove any possible doubt if they said, "Make an early left turn," but I understand they are leaving some weasel-space for the inquest if some spud tries to turn when they are still on the runway.
It would also help if there were some guidance as to what this rule (and, well, all of them really) was actually aiming to achieve. Is there a magic safety threshold reached at 500' or is it a beaurocratic nicety that if you are not pointing in the same direction as a runway below 500' you are indulging in naughty low flying and should be deprived of some penalty units...
If I was asked to "Make early L/R turn",
I would normally turn as soon as I was in a position to do so safely. In the case of the Bo that may well be 100-200', after I have it cleaned up and stabilised in the climb, and I am able to do so clear of any obstacles.
I suspect for a B737 pilot it would be somewhat different!
I don't fly around with all the CARs stacked up in my head for reference in case I somehow inadvertently bust one.
Dr
I would normally turn as soon as I was in a position to do so safely. In the case of the Bo that may well be 100-200', after I have it cleaned up and stabilised in the climb, and I am able to do so clear of any obstacles.
I suspect for a B737 pilot it would be somewhat different!
I don't fly around with all the CARs stacked up in my head for reference in case I somehow inadvertently bust one.
Dr
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I don't fly around with all the CARs stacked up in my head for reference in case I somehow inadvertently bust one.
By requesting it, its up to you to turn when safe to do so. If it's safe at 100', well thats your call 
Rarely will we "instruct" an early turn and if we do it would normally have immediately or something else in it, also probably the word alert. The reason we try not to "instruct" the early turn is we don't know whats happening in the cockpit. You could have abnormal engine indications etc etc and think that by having requested an early turn you do it anyway then subsequently crash. We don't want that, nor do you, hence when you think its safe to do so, you can make the turn.
Hope that helps somewhat. Probably clear as mud eh.
Rarely will we "instruct" an early turn and if we do it would normally have immediately or something else in it, also probably the word alert. The reason we try not to "instruct" the early turn is we don't know whats happening in the cockpit. You could have abnormal engine indications etc etc and think that by having requested an early turn you do it anyway then subsequently crash. We don't want that, nor do you, hence when you think its safe to do so, you can make the turn.
Hope that helps somewhat. Probably clear as mud eh.
RE: Post #9 (gear in transit)
Mate can I elaborate on your speed point - it might help, you can correct me if I'm wrong...
You can use the larger cat "C" circling area, in your BN-2. You are visually circling and the speed stipulated is a maximum speed ie. you're free to fly slower if you want. (The maximum speed is to assist with containing yourself inside said area.)
So more room for circling, no speed issues for visual circling.
If you are flying the approach, use the performance category and speed ranges for initial and final etc. for the aircraft. Here again, I think you can use a higher performance category than your Vat puts you in (IFR C210s are a good example - look at the cat "A" final approach speed range...), but you must acknowledge all the other differences in the approach for the chosen performance category. This might be a different outbound heading, and might involve a minimum speed that your aircraft has difficulty with...
But yeah I think you're talking about the clear sky night arrival and how to handle that - use a cat "C" circling area and a cat "C" circling minima and your slower ship is no problem because speed limit is a maximum for visual circling.
CR.
You can use the larger cat "C" circling area, in your BN-2. You are visually circling and the speed stipulated is a maximum speed ie. you're free to fly slower if you want. (The maximum speed is to assist with containing yourself inside said area.)
So more room for circling, no speed issues for visual circling.
If you are flying the approach, use the performance category and speed ranges for initial and final etc. for the aircraft. Here again, I think you can use a higher performance category than your Vat puts you in (IFR C210s are a good example - look at the cat "A" final approach speed range...), but you must acknowledge all the other differences in the approach for the chosen performance category. This might be a different outbound heading, and might involve a minimum speed that your aircraft has difficulty with...
But yeah I think you're talking about the clear sky night arrival and how to handle that - use a cat "C" circling area and a cat "C" circling minima and your slower ship is no problem because speed limit is a maximum for visual circling.
CR.
