Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Yappy is a senior....
Not sure if Boeing manager was 'spying' or what but it can't have been for our benefit!!!!
As for me, I am behind the exec. in their bid for PIA.
QE & QF are just like a bunch of poker players, they are trying to 'bluff' us with thier 'negotiating' tactics. What they haven't realized yet is we have had enough of their lies and cheating. How can they defend their position when the company is making record profits? How can they ask us to take a pay 'rise' that is less than the cost of living increase when the Board and Managers give themselves pay rises beyond belief?
It is interesting to note that in all of the diatribe the company is preaching this time around they have not dragged out the usual threat of outsourcing aircraft maintenence!! Maybe its because there is nowhere else to send it!!!!
That being the case what are we waiting for?
Why is anyone worried?
Unemployment at 30 year low....
No major apprentice training (by anyone) in Aus in the last 5-10 years....
If QE make us all redundant, where can QF get a workforce big enough, and suitably trained, to service AND repair their aircraft in Aus?
I don't think the logistics of getting 'A' checks done overseas would be economical, do you? And how many suitably licensed people are there, in any of the Line Station cities, who are unemployed and waiting for QE to offer them a job at the pay rates that QE think is fair? I think QF would have a lot or 'Gate Guardians' parked accros the country and around the world!!!
QF is playing a game, it is up to us LAMEs to play them at their own game.
Stand Firm, Stand Strong, Stand up for each other and get the pay RISE we deserve, not the insult QF is offering!!!
One last thing, who pays our wages? QF(Airlines) or QE(Engineering), if it is QF, then why do we have to 'bid' for our own work? More company tactics to make us feel vulnerable?
Not sure if Boeing manager was 'spying' or what but it can't have been for our benefit!!!!
As for me, I am behind the exec. in their bid for PIA.
QE & QF are just like a bunch of poker players, they are trying to 'bluff' us with thier 'negotiating' tactics. What they haven't realized yet is we have had enough of their lies and cheating. How can they defend their position when the company is making record profits? How can they ask us to take a pay 'rise' that is less than the cost of living increase when the Board and Managers give themselves pay rises beyond belief?
It is interesting to note that in all of the diatribe the company is preaching this time around they have not dragged out the usual threat of outsourcing aircraft maintenence!! Maybe its because there is nowhere else to send it!!!!
That being the case what are we waiting for?
Why is anyone worried?
Unemployment at 30 year low....
No major apprentice training (by anyone) in Aus in the last 5-10 years....
If QE make us all redundant, where can QF get a workforce big enough, and suitably trained, to service AND repair their aircraft in Aus?
I don't think the logistics of getting 'A' checks done overseas would be economical, do you? And how many suitably licensed people are there, in any of the Line Station cities, who are unemployed and waiting for QE to offer them a job at the pay rates that QE think is fair? I think QF would have a lot or 'Gate Guardians' parked accros the country and around the world!!!
QF is playing a game, it is up to us LAMEs to play them at their own game.
Stand Firm, Stand Strong, Stand up for each other and get the pay RISE we deserve, not the insult QF is offering!!!
One last thing, who pays our wages? QF(Airlines) or QE(Engineering), if it is QF, then why do we have to 'bid' for our own work? More company tactics to make us feel vulnerable?
It may have passed your attention, but Forstaff have advertised for a "General Manager" at Avalon on Friday. Duties include industrial negotiations, compliance with contracts, and all sorts of other stuff designed to ensure sweetness and light.
In other words, actually delivering on whatever it is that Forstaff signed up for....leaving a higher "senior manager" out of the loop and off the hook.
Needless to say, Sunfish will not be applying. This is not a growth opportunity.
In other words, actually delivering on whatever it is that Forstaff signed up for....leaving a higher "senior manager" out of the loop and off the hook.
Needless to say, Sunfish will not be applying. This is not a growth opportunity.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SYDNEY
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Hmmm! All this negotiating with the EBA got me wondering just what is GD's hourly rate compared to mine. Well after some research I worked it out. Including bonuses for last financial year, it worked out to be $1012.00 per hour.
So my question is what are you on?????
I'm with you fed sec and the rest of the crew, we deserve more.
Show me the money........
So my question is what are you on????? I'm with you fed sec and the rest of the crew, we deserve more.
Show me the money........
Join Date: Jan 2008
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soldier of fortune
I see where you're comming from, but can you imagine any of those people arriving here and looking at what a truck driver gets on the mines these days. How long do you think they will stay working for QE when they can earn much more elswhere, and not just on the mines. Just look at the recently qualified AMEs, how many of them are staying on?
QE are not able to attract, or keep, new (young) aircraft workers.
QE does not pay enough to get the type of people it needs.
If it did it would not need to keep as many LAMEs employed as it does!!!
Young people can, and do. earn similar money to AMEs, with less training, exams and without the need to do 24/7 shifts.
One last thing before I retire (to bed). Where is Chemical Ali and his friends??
Maybe the smell of a (A380) course has quietened them down?
Good night for now!!!!
I see where you're comming from, but can you imagine any of those people arriving here and looking at what a truck driver gets on the mines these days. How long do you think they will stay working for QE when they can earn much more elswhere, and not just on the mines. Just look at the recently qualified AMEs, how many of them are staying on?
QE are not able to attract, or keep, new (young) aircraft workers.
QE does not pay enough to get the type of people it needs.
If it did it would not need to keep as many LAMEs employed as it does!!!
Young people can, and do. earn similar money to AMEs, with less training, exams and without the need to do 24/7 shifts.
One last thing before I retire (to bed). Where is Chemical Ali and his friends??
Maybe the smell of a (A380) course has quietened them down?
Good night for now!!!!
Last edited by YOSHI; 6th Apr 2008 at 16:09. Reason: Extra text....
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Melbourne
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Hi There comrades, looks like you a finally going to get what you deserve, great stuff, my predictions are on the money.
Lets see
But where do they go...Please wait and see
The end of the ALAEA... soon you will agree!!!
Lets see
- PIA gets up
- rumblings can be heard in the membership
- stop works happens
- lock out ensues
- panick sets iin
- membership fractures
But where do they go...Please wait and see
The end of the ALAEA... soon you will agree!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a report on Channel 7 news tonight about some 'major airline' and maintenance deficiencies. Any one else see the shorts for that ???
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I have heard about it but not seen.
Wingers the in-principle Agreement was better than previous Agreements our members had certified. It was only the very odd member who could tally the extras up to give him 5%pa or more. Most were around the 4 mark if averaged out but what changed after we agreed with Qf was the removal of the extra 1% super for some. This now left a small number of ALAEA members with only 3% pa which was basically in line with all rises in the past. Though small in number, these individuals rightly demonstrated and won support from their workmates to say no until all members benefited. Of course this was not the only reason members were not happy.
Do I think it was a good Agreement? I did when we agreed to it but when it started to become watered down I felt cheated as I’m sure many members did. One other ppruner over the weekend commented that we (FP and FS) are out of touch with the members to even agree in the first place. Maybe he is right. We did however run the terms past about 20 individuals before we said yes to anything.
As for flip flops, if you put a $5000 deposit on a car worth $50,000 and go to pick it up on your next day off. The dealer tells you it didn’t pass the roadworthy and needed $2000 worth of repairs that he was adding to the price. Who do you think is doing the flip flop?
Translate that to the EBA discussions. You agree in-principle to support a set of terms (I will now focus on the rostering ones) and knowing that our Perth boys and gal did a brilliant job to protect our right to agree to rosters. They throw the final copy in front of you and it says “LAMEs can’t unreasonably withhold Agreement to new extended hours rosters”. Something you never even discussed with the airline for them to change and would have resulted in them being able to put you on any roster they like. Would you like me to have done this flip flop or sit there and say, it’s ok, I don’t want to upset Geoff and his appointees, you can keep it there. So we demand it comes out and a more appropriate set of words go in only to find that key managers in Mel and Syd are running around telling LAMEs that they will be merged and all on one roster as soon as the EBA is signed up. I won’t print what I want to write next
Your Executive and I make decisions on behalf of you and other LAMEs in this country. We answer to them and no other. We try (and sometimes it gets very trying) to stay in touch with members and adjust our actions accordingly. We aren’t in the game to make friends with airline managers and are fully aware that they wouldn’t even bother talking to us unless they wanted something.
If we get a smaller majority it doesn’t concern us in fact we expect it. This time around we only need 50% plus 1. I will test my judgement of the membership and take a guess at 70% in favour with a 75% return rate. I better prepare for our next day in court.
cheers
Wingers the in-principle Agreement was better than previous Agreements our members had certified. It was only the very odd member who could tally the extras up to give him 5%pa or more. Most were around the 4 mark if averaged out but what changed after we agreed with Qf was the removal of the extra 1% super for some. This now left a small number of ALAEA members with only 3% pa which was basically in line with all rises in the past. Though small in number, these individuals rightly demonstrated and won support from their workmates to say no until all members benefited. Of course this was not the only reason members were not happy.
Do I think it was a good Agreement? I did when we agreed to it but when it started to become watered down I felt cheated as I’m sure many members did. One other ppruner over the weekend commented that we (FP and FS) are out of touch with the members to even agree in the first place. Maybe he is right. We did however run the terms past about 20 individuals before we said yes to anything.
As for flip flops, if you put a $5000 deposit on a car worth $50,000 and go to pick it up on your next day off. The dealer tells you it didn’t pass the roadworthy and needed $2000 worth of repairs that he was adding to the price. Who do you think is doing the flip flop?
Translate that to the EBA discussions. You agree in-principle to support a set of terms (I will now focus on the rostering ones) and knowing that our Perth boys and gal did a brilliant job to protect our right to agree to rosters. They throw the final copy in front of you and it says “LAMEs can’t unreasonably withhold Agreement to new extended hours rosters”. Something you never even discussed with the airline for them to change and would have resulted in them being able to put you on any roster they like. Would you like me to have done this flip flop or sit there and say, it’s ok, I don’t want to upset Geoff and his appointees, you can keep it there. So we demand it comes out and a more appropriate set of words go in only to find that key managers in Mel and Syd are running around telling LAMEs that they will be merged and all on one roster as soon as the EBA is signed up. I won’t print what I want to write next
Your Executive and I make decisions on behalf of you and other LAMEs in this country. We answer to them and no other. We try (and sometimes it gets very trying) to stay in touch with members and adjust our actions accordingly. We aren’t in the game to make friends with airline managers and are fully aware that they wouldn’t even bother talking to us unless they wanted something.
If we get a smaller majority it doesn’t concern us in fact we expect it. This time around we only need 50% plus 1. I will test my judgement of the membership and take a guess at 70% in favour with a 75% return rate. I better prepare for our next day in court.
cheers
LAMEA380 Why won't you back up your claims?
Ahh. LAMEA380, you’re back! Great! Would you care to elaborate on your claims? I note that you refused to respond to the reasonable questions I posed back in post #432 about similar claims you made in post #422. Allow me to refresh your memory: ' Gday LAMEA380, Re: your post #422: ‘the redun(d)ancy wont be an issue, as they will be sacked, they will not have an agreement and will all be on the outer looking in.’ How did you come to the conclusion that the LAME’s will be sacked? Also, could you please explain how the AWU will negotiate a LAME agreement when they aren’t respondents to the LAME EBA? Finally are you currently employed by Qantas as a permanent full time LAME or are you commenting as an outsider? Thanks.'
Well-fedsec,
U are 100% right about us all being merged etc etc so why at this stage should a new roster even be considered.Im sure a lot of members can recall that less then 12 months ago a roster was introduced by qf management basically just to cause pain.Hmmmmmm-wonder who is enduring the most pain now!!FEDSEC-before u recommend it to the members,pls look very carefully and deep into this proposal and find out EVERY reason why it is so suddenly important for qf to be running around trying to get it in.
Could be as many points in there as there was in the EBA that were never intended to be complied with once the agreement is signed-THEN,ITS TOO LATE!.
U are 100% right about us all being merged etc etc so why at this stage should a new roster even be considered.Im sure a lot of members can recall that less then 12 months ago a roster was introduced by qf management basically just to cause pain.Hmmmmmm-wonder who is enduring the most pain now!!FEDSEC-before u recommend it to the members,pls look very carefully and deep into this proposal and find out EVERY reason why it is so suddenly important for qf to be running around trying to get it in.
Could be as many points in there as there was in the EBA that were never intended to be complied with once the agreement is signed-THEN,ITS TOO LATE!.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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TALKWRENCH
When is an EBA not an EBA, when the employer applies to get it cancelled.
If they apply, then this MUST be granted , at this stage it looks a fair bet, that means all existing conditions and redundancy provisions no longer apply , they are inconsequential and they are lost.
No agreement exists and no previous agreement has any effect, then the fun and games begin.
But dont take my word for it, i suggest you find out for yourself.
When is an EBA not an EBA, when the employer applies to get it cancelled.
If they apply, then this MUST be granted , at this stage it looks a fair bet, that means all existing conditions and redundancy provisions no longer apply , they are inconsequential and they are lost.
No agreement exists and no previous agreement has any effect, then the fun and games begin.
But dont take my word for it, i suggest you find out for yourself.
Thanks for timely response LAMEA380
Thanks LAMEA380. Although you didn’t answer my questions, I guess any response is better than none at all. You are quite the politician! You assert that it is a ‘fair bet’ that QE will apply to have the EBA cancelled. What do you base this assertion on? Your view points may be taken with more than a grain of salt if you were to back them with some facts. Your moniker suggests that you are employed as a permanent full time LAME with QE. Are you?
The one protection the Government introduced was that the EBA redundancy entitlements would be “preserved” for a maximum of 12 months after the EBA is terminated. That will help some people when a company suddenly finds itself in financial strife and has to lay people off quickly: it won’t have time to pull these stunts.
But Tristar, like many manufacturers, has known for years that it was going to have to lay off workers, and it has played the waiting game to minimise the workers’ entitlements. After it announced it had no work left, it laid off a fair number of workers who had not accumulated much leave. But it refused to lay off the older, long-serving employees.
Instead, it insisted that they turn up to work even though there was no work to do. Essentially it waited until their EBA had expired, terminated it, and instantly slashed their entitlements to about 25% of what it had originally agreed to pay. This, of course, was perfectly legal — and as the changes in WorkChoices show, it’s something the Government wants to encourage.
But Tristar, like many manufacturers, has known for years that it was going to have to lay off workers, and it has played the waiting game to minimise the workers’ entitlements. After it announced it had no work left, it laid off a fair number of workers who had not accumulated much leave. But it refused to lay off the older, long-serving employees.
Instead, it insisted that they turn up to work even though there was no work to do. Essentially it waited until their EBA had expired, terminated it, and instantly slashed their entitlements to about 25% of what it had originally agreed to pay. This, of course, was perfectly legal — and as the changes in WorkChoices show, it’s something the Government wants to encourage.
Do you really think Qantas would want that sort of publicity ? They don't have Packer on the board anymore so the negative publicity shield on his media empire is effectively gone... so I ask you;
Seriously... what crap are you trying to spread.
It is in Qantas's interest to keep us on an EBA, if we all went to AWA's like Virgin Blue engineers working for VirginTech or Jetcare(Patrick's) we would all get pay rises far in excess of 5% pa. I personally wouldn't mind 100k for 1 type license, with B1/B2 training and type training for all when required... not for those who bend over so far they can kiss their own arse
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Yoshi said
"Not sure if Boeing manager was 'spying' or what but it can't have been for our benefit!!!!"
I'd like to think he was seeing exactly what a night in base is all about. After all, he is the one who canned night shift at the SIT !!
"Not sure if Boeing manager was 'spying' or what but it can't have been for our benefit!!!!"
I'd like to think he was seeing exactly what a night in base is all about. After all, he is the one who canned night shift at the SIT !!
EBA termination????
If QF were even thinking about terminating the eba,why would they have gone to the trouble of again issuing a letter telling us this time that they will be leaving the new eba on the table for the time being??
Its very obvious now that to be a qf manager u have to have no sense of respect for anyone that works for u,u think nothing of your workers opinions,and very sadly cant understand that your workers do have a life outside of qf unlike urself.
Its very obvious now that to be a qf manager u have to have no sense of respect for anyone that works for u,u think nothing of your workers opinions,and very sadly cant understand that your workers do have a life outside of qf unlike urself.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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A question to the Fed Sec and everyone elses opinion out there....
With all this EBA stuff going on and being a big issue, i think the Sydney Precinct issue seems to have fallen away from the Union's attention.
There seems to be alot of talking around moving guys around and having specific manufacturer based crews, I.E Boeing guys looking after Boeing aircraft sydney ops and Airbus guys looking after Airbus sydney ops, well what is the unions opinion on all of this?
Shouldn't the unions view on this be keep the line guys as line guys and the base guys as base guys that way everyone has there own speciality and keeps everyone protected in there own areas and keeps everyone in a job, let alone other industrial issues such as roster changes, people moving areas that dont want to move.
Just a though.
With all this EBA stuff going on and being a big issue, i think the Sydney Precinct issue seems to have fallen away from the Union's attention.
There seems to be alot of talking around moving guys around and having specific manufacturer based crews, I.E Boeing guys looking after Boeing aircraft sydney ops and Airbus guys looking after Airbus sydney ops, well what is the unions opinion on all of this?
Shouldn't the unions view on this be keep the line guys as line guys and the base guys as base guys that way everyone has there own speciality and keeps everyone protected in there own areas and keeps everyone in a job, let alone other industrial issues such as roster changes, people moving areas that dont want to move.
Just a though.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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The Sydney precinct thing is something that's on our radar. We know the changes are being kept back at the moment subject to the EBA being signed off. Of course managers have moved around and the 330 crews have been set up for some time.
We do have an opinion on it. There is a legal position on it. At this time I won't be commenting on either as they could become mixed up and false assumptions made.
cheers
We do have an opinion on it. There is a legal position on it. At this time I won't be commenting on either as they could become mixed up and false assumptions made.
cheers
Join Date: Jun 2006
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The Big Issues
Man Power and Licence Coverage
(LAMEs on the Skilled shortage list, Licenced Engineers one of five professions automatically granted a greencard in USA, Minimum rates climbing at all other employers except QANTAS and Regional airlines offering 100k for licenced LAMEs)
Management will attempt band aid fixes such as
SYDNEY PRECINCT
NO MAN TRANSIT
MERGERS
SHUTDOWN OF HEAVY MAINTENANCE
Sign off on this EBA and all of the above will be implemented within months if not weeks
It is apparent that THIS IS QANTAS ENGINEERING's TEN YEAR PLAN
Open your ears and open your eyes, this time around it appears OUR union, the ALAEA is taking the fight to QF, Let's get right behind them and safeguard OUR FUTURE
Man Power and Licence Coverage
(LAMEs on the Skilled shortage list, Licenced Engineers one of five professions automatically granted a greencard in USA, Minimum rates climbing at all other employers except QANTAS and Regional airlines offering 100k for licenced LAMEs)
Management will attempt band aid fixes such as
SYDNEY PRECINCT
NO MAN TRANSIT
MERGERS
SHUTDOWN OF HEAVY MAINTENANCE
Sign off on this EBA and all of the above will be implemented within months if not weeks
It is apparent that THIS IS QANTAS ENGINEERING's TEN YEAR PLAN
Open your ears and open your eyes, this time around it appears OUR union, the ALAEA is taking the fight to QF, Let's get right behind them and safeguard OUR FUTURE