Has the Metro had its Day in Oz?
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Top Up
Couln't agree with you more - the Metro, once comfortable with the aircraft, is quite good to operate/fly. Yep, the assymetric go round performance can be left wanting, but if you play around with the speeds a little bit, it will perform. The sad lack of experienced captains for training and ICUS work is showing already, with 800 hr raw pilots being endorsed on Metros, and those same pilots then being used to conduct ICUS operations. How in the hell are those guys going to impart any meaningful knowledge to another newbie?
The electrical system is a nightmare to the uninitiated, even then, is still a nightmare. Some say it mirrors a DC10's systems. Very high loads on the ailerons at speed. Apply bank, count ten, and - lo and behold - the thing starts to bank/turn.
Basically, I found, it is a numbers aircraft, operate to the numbers, and it won't bite you.
There appears (is) a vast discrepancy between QLD and SY basin CASA operating requirements, which doesn't help when drawing comparisons between operations either.
With a good Auto Pilot, it is a comfortable single pilot aircraft in any application. The only requirement for a second pilot in Chtr ops is if there is 15 or more pax. The second crew member can be either cabin attendant or a safety pilot.
Eithe way, the Metro will be here for quite a while yet.
The electrical system is a nightmare to the uninitiated, even then, is still a nightmare. Some say it mirrors a DC10's systems. Very high loads on the ailerons at speed. Apply bank, count ten, and - lo and behold - the thing starts to bank/turn.
Basically, I found, it is a numbers aircraft, operate to the numbers, and it won't bite you.
There appears (is) a vast discrepancy between QLD and SY basin CASA operating requirements, which doesn't help when drawing comparisons between operations either.
With a good Auto Pilot, it is a comfortable single pilot aircraft in any application. The only requirement for a second pilot in Chtr ops is if there is 15 or more pax. The second crew member can be either cabin attendant or a safety pilot.
Eithe way, the Metro will be here for quite a while yet.
Metrosexual
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It's not just the aeroplane.
It's the big-picture SA that needs to go with it.
And that comes from flying experience.
However, I am told that experience is not important to these operations because in Europe, a turboprop is usually someone's first job.
It's the big-picture SA that needs to go with it.
And that comes from flying experience.
However, I am told that experience is not important to these operations because in Europe, a turboprop is usually someone's first job.
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However, I am told that experience is not important to these operations because in Europe, a turboprop is usually someone's first job.
Could help.
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I only know one working Metro pilot, but from conversations I have had with him it would appear that he was given very comprehensive training in a sim and very thorough induction to the "real" aircraft. Perhaps not the norm (?), but he does fly for a large operator of the type.
GG
GG
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I had no sim training and was let loose single pilot with the metro being my first turbo prop! It was a steep learning curve and I have a few extra grey hairs because of it. I enjoyed flying It and was warned before I started flying it that it wasnt a pilot friendly A/C. Not having anything to compare it to in respects of turbo props I found it OK to operate and very reliable.
what seems to be casa's problem with it? Why do they hate it?
Being a metro dog has served me well in my aviation career and I am glad I flew it. In some ways I miss it. Would I trade my push a button for coffee job for it? No but it certainly beat bashing round in a cheiftain covered in ice.
Living the dream!
what seems to be casa's problem with it? Why do they hate it?
Being a metro dog has served me well in my aviation career and I am glad I flew it. In some ways I miss it. Would I trade my push a button for coffee job for it? No but it certainly beat bashing round in a cheiftain covered in ice.
Living the dream!
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Couldn't agree with you more 18-Wheeler.
Actually for mine the M3/23 was a relatively easy aircraft to operate given correct training and some diligence on the part of the pilot/s, no different to most other types. Single engine performance was good as long as correct technique was observed (speaking from much experience simulated and a little actual). Anyone that has flown the type will tell you that their IF skills were never as good as they were when they were flying the Metro. It's been the backbone of profits for many a company over the years and a fine introduction to pressurised, turbine and mostly multi-crew ops for many an aspiring airline pilot.
We could get into the virtues of FAR 23 versus FAR 25 certified aircraft but that would indeed open another can of worms.
D
Actually for mine the M3/23 was a relatively easy aircraft to operate given correct training and some diligence on the part of the pilot/s, no different to most other types. Single engine performance was good as long as correct technique was observed (speaking from much experience simulated and a little actual). Anyone that has flown the type will tell you that their IF skills were never as good as they were when they were flying the Metro. It's been the backbone of profits for many a company over the years and a fine introduction to pressurised, turbine and mostly multi-crew ops for many an aspiring airline pilot.
We could get into the virtues of FAR 23 versus FAR 25 certified aircraft but that would indeed open another can of worms.
D
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Has anyone had any problems with trimming the Metro's?? I was talking to an ex metro pilot today and he spoke of several occasions when the stableliser just ran away trimming up and down!!!!
They apparently have a magnetic clamp, which moves the connecting rod attached to elevator, which burn out often??
Has anyone else had similar problems??
They apparently have a magnetic clamp, which moves the connecting rod attached to elevator, which burn out often??
Has anyone else had similar problems??
Thread Starter
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Spotlight...apologies. We're all a genius in hindsight and perhaps an over-reaction on my behalf. Just hate the have a dig before contributing issue on this web site and maybe took it out on you. Will remove my post.....
The Metro electrical system? It reflects is age and development. Understand it to troubleshoot it. Used to fly with a spare current limiter in the pilot's side pocket. That's why the 23 went to 400 amps (??) instead of the 325 amp current limiter....Never had to use it, luckily.
The trim? Had hassles once. It is a jack screw mechanism. The problem I had was a microswitch. Get up on a ladder when able and feel the stab and fin. Sturdy is not a word I would use. Then you'll hopefully appreciate why it's not a good idea to side slip a Metro (plus wing design, plus power available v power required behind the drag curve.....)
IT'S NOT THE MACHINE.
It is (in my opinion only) the no morals operators, the poor training (problem based learning at its best), the place it fills in GA (that includes the "airlines" in GA), the pressures placed on low time, low expereinced pilots (of which I was once one), and the lack of aggresive implemenation of the rules by the CASA that it is meant to so veremently stand for. I have been approached more than once to dob in a Metro operator. Fact. I refused to. On each occasion the request was met with the reply it deserved.
So, when these issues, in my opinion, are stacked up against "it" things need to change. That is why I question whether the Metro still has a place in today's environment.
And yes, it is a case of not solving the systemic issues. But when these systemic isssues run so deep it may be "easier" to remove one of the Swiss cheese slices than the other ones behind it. Will it happen? No. But hey, this is just a chat site to air some ideas and opinions.......
The Metro electrical system? It reflects is age and development. Understand it to troubleshoot it. Used to fly with a spare current limiter in the pilot's side pocket. That's why the 23 went to 400 amps (??) instead of the 325 amp current limiter....Never had to use it, luckily.
The trim? Had hassles once. It is a jack screw mechanism. The problem I had was a microswitch. Get up on a ladder when able and feel the stab and fin. Sturdy is not a word I would use. Then you'll hopefully appreciate why it's not a good idea to side slip a Metro (plus wing design, plus power available v power required behind the drag curve.....)
IT'S NOT THE MACHINE.
It is (in my opinion only) the no morals operators, the poor training (problem based learning at its best), the place it fills in GA (that includes the "airlines" in GA), the pressures placed on low time, low expereinced pilots (of which I was once one), and the lack of aggresive implemenation of the rules by the CASA that it is meant to so veremently stand for. I have been approached more than once to dob in a Metro operator. Fact. I refused to. On each occasion the request was met with the reply it deserved.
So, when these issues, in my opinion, are stacked up against "it" things need to change. That is why I question whether the Metro still has a place in today's environment.
And yes, it is a case of not solving the systemic issues. But when these systemic isssues run so deep it may be "easier" to remove one of the Swiss cheese slices than the other ones behind it. Will it happen? No. But hey, this is just a chat site to air some ideas and opinions.......
Last edited by TopTup; 19th Apr 2008 at 09:25.
Over the past 12 months have been heavily involved in simulator training of pilots going into the majors. The majority of these pilots have flown Metros or are currently on them. It might be sheer coincidence but the stories they tell of Metro unserviceabilities is alarming. Most have not reported these defects for fear of being labelled trouble maker. A few of the pilots simply refused to fly and walked off the job to unemployment rather than risk their necks. A common complaint is the repeated unserviceability of radar leading to thunderstorm encounters. Damaged radomes, water entering the radar through crook seals or cracks in the radome reveal a sad state of maintenance compounded by reluctance to report things. This indicates the scheduled maintenance is being short cut or avoided and bugger the consequences for the flight crew. It is all anecdotal but there are too many of these stories to be lies. I am sure similar stories are available from those that fly other freight dog types but one hears very little of active CASA interest or airworthiness investigation in Metro ops.
And one wonders what CASA are doing about aircraft flying about u/s weather radar? Probably 3/10ths of feek all.
Most CASA FOI's wouldn't know a Metro if it bit them on the arse.
You have to look at the problems caused by a certain FOI from CASA and the company that he looked after in the mid 90's in NSW.
RIP the two blokes killed in VH-NEJ.
Most CASA FOI's wouldn't know a Metro if it bit them on the arse.
You have to look at the problems caused by a certain FOI from CASA and the company that he looked after in the mid 90's in NSW.
RIP the two blokes killed in VH-NEJ.
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Exactly.....
It's a case of eyes wide shut. I just think that the issues raised here are so prevalent yet those who are meant to be in the know and take the action choose not to, for any reason. When something happens it will be knee jerk and too bloody late.
Centaurus, I can varify what you state to be true. I walked because of such issues. Now, I can guarantee you I'm not the smartest bloke in the world, so why does the CASA not know or act? I have seen and heard of Metro pilots at the Ansett sim in Melbourne being "forced" to pass, ie patterns repeated over and over again for an IFR renewal when it is actaully wrong to do so. I was told to "Shut up. We're short of pilots and can't afford one offline."
Ramp inspections? Ha! If they wanted they could check the real issues instead of writing a compliance notice for oil on the oleos. Pathetic. Have a look at some of the freighters taxiing as the nose gear almost bounces up & down due the who gives a damn loading techniques.
I've seen more than one pilot sacked via dubious means due correctly insisting on writing MEL's or not being a "company man".
Staionair8: there is no requirement for a wx radar on Metros for freight ops. Sad but true. It's back to WWII ADF use!
So again, will anything be done? Hell no. That's why I got out. Those who choose to stay in such circumstances know exactly what they are (not) doing and those who don't get it yet are the most dangerous as they are naiive through inexperience or agree to "play the game".
Russian Roulette.
It's a case of eyes wide shut. I just think that the issues raised here are so prevalent yet those who are meant to be in the know and take the action choose not to, for any reason. When something happens it will be knee jerk and too bloody late.
Centaurus, I can varify what you state to be true. I walked because of such issues. Now, I can guarantee you I'm not the smartest bloke in the world, so why does the CASA not know or act? I have seen and heard of Metro pilots at the Ansett sim in Melbourne being "forced" to pass, ie patterns repeated over and over again for an IFR renewal when it is actaully wrong to do so. I was told to "Shut up. We're short of pilots and can't afford one offline."
Ramp inspections? Ha! If they wanted they could check the real issues instead of writing a compliance notice for oil on the oleos. Pathetic. Have a look at some of the freighters taxiing as the nose gear almost bounces up & down due the who gives a damn loading techniques.
I've seen more than one pilot sacked via dubious means due correctly insisting on writing MEL's or not being a "company man".
Staionair8: there is no requirement for a wx radar on Metros for freight ops. Sad but true. It's back to WWII ADF use!
So again, will anything be done? Hell no. That's why I got out. Those who choose to stay in such circumstances know exactly what they are (not) doing and those who don't get it yet are the most dangerous as they are naiive through inexperience or agree to "play the game".
Russian Roulette.
The WX radar must be in the CASA approved MEL list, but if you speak to the right CASA people we won't need that for night freight!!
I know a number of guys that have flown Metro's II/111/23 single pilot on night freight and a lot of them don't actually do their IFR renewal in the Metro but go off and do it in a Duchess etc with an ATO.
I know a number of guys that have flown Metro's II/111/23 single pilot on night freight and a lot of them don't actually do their IFR renewal in the Metro but go off and do it in a Duchess etc with an ATO.
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Top Tup
Will also remove offending posts.
I must admit to surprise that weather radar is not mandatory in the Metro class of operation if storms are forecast or there is a probability.
On aft loaded Metro's. Of those I've seen a few.
Well, things have to be done properly and the only person who really understands the operation is the pilot and when there are two, things are more exact.
Will also remove offending posts.
I must admit to surprise that weather radar is not mandatory in the Metro class of operation if storms are forecast or there is a probability.
On aft loaded Metro's. Of those I've seen a few.
Well, things have to be done properly and the only person who really understands the operation is the pilot and when there are two, things are more exact.
Last edited by Spotlight; 20th Apr 2008 at 13:42.
Silly Old Git
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Good maintenance, good training, a good aircraft.
To all the knockers, Given a situation where training is sound, Mentoring and checking, is of a high standard and proper maintenance is provided by reputable operators, then the Metro is in fact a great place for the budding airline pilot to spend some time in the right hand seat cut thier teeth and perhaps move to the left seat with confidence
Its fast, forgiving, and below 10,000 @ (248kts) when operated properly with sound SOPs is a great stepping stone to jets with similar speed to 737 profiles below 10.000
Unfortunately due to the accessibility of this category of aircraft within the budget of some lessser operators it can result in poor training, basic endorsements poor understanding of systems, and less than adequate maintenance. In which case i would agree it is an awful plane to fly especially single Pilot
I have over 3000 hours on type and still current and I am not the slightest bit intereted in operating the aircraft single pilot,
I refer to some comments regarding single engine performance, If the aircraft is configured to the approriate configuration for the situation as quickly as possible then it will get you where you want to go safely. I would not however like to be in that situation single pilot at night in IMC there is too much to do if you want to do it clearly methodically and safely auto pilot or not!
There is nothing better than to have a friendly voice sitting next to you watching your ar####s when the sh###t hits the fan.
I would suggest those persons who complain about the systems on the Metro learn more about them and they will find they are not so bad or disimilar to current jets, bear in mind a 737 300 is only about 2-3 years younger than some of the Metros flying today, same technology.
Just my bit but dont knock the Metro till youve tried it and if you have tried it think where it got you
Its fast, forgiving, and below 10,000 @ (248kts) when operated properly with sound SOPs is a great stepping stone to jets with similar speed to 737 profiles below 10.000
Unfortunately due to the accessibility of this category of aircraft within the budget of some lessser operators it can result in poor training, basic endorsements poor understanding of systems, and less than adequate maintenance. In which case i would agree it is an awful plane to fly especially single Pilot
I have over 3000 hours on type and still current and I am not the slightest bit intereted in operating the aircraft single pilot,
I refer to some comments regarding single engine performance, If the aircraft is configured to the approriate configuration for the situation as quickly as possible then it will get you where you want to go safely. I would not however like to be in that situation single pilot at night in IMC there is too much to do if you want to do it clearly methodically and safely auto pilot or not!
There is nothing better than to have a friendly voice sitting next to you watching your ar####s when the sh###t hits the fan.
I would suggest those persons who complain about the systems on the Metro learn more about them and they will find they are not so bad or disimilar to current jets, bear in mind a 737 300 is only about 2-3 years younger than some of the Metros flying today, same technology.
Just my bit but dont knock the Metro till youve tried it and if you have tried it think where it got you
Silly Old Git
Back in the good old days.
I can tell you of a C402a on night freight that had no nav-aids working save for an ADF that would show station passage if you passed over it....
No auto pilot of course there was just a hole...and the port engine couldnt be throttled back more than halfway on approach or it would have shaken out of its mounting
Used that way night after night on ADL -MEL run.
I can tell you of a C402a on night freight that had no nav-aids working save for an ADF that would show station passage if you passed over it....
No auto pilot of course there was just a hole...and the port engine couldnt be throttled back more than halfway on approach or it would have shaken out of its mounting
Used that way night after night on ADL -MEL run.
Look at the positves Tinnpis, it was night multi-command in the logbook!
If you were flying a C402A it would have been a new aircraft.
And young Ppruners when Tinnpis flew C402A's men were men, boys were boys and poofs were something you put feet up on after a hard day at work.
After flying all night they then came home and washed the aircraft so that it was in pristine condition, and all for a wage of 2/6 a week.
If you were flying a C402A it would have been a new aircraft.
And young Ppruners when Tinnpis flew C402A's men were men, boys were boys and poofs were something you put feet up on after a hard day at work.
After flying all night they then came home and washed the aircraft so that it was in pristine condition, and all for a wage of 2/6 a week.