Pilots with history of recreational drug use.Do I stand a chance?
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Originally Posted by ampan
what's the difference between a whatever-it-is of cocaine and half a bottle of Chevas Regal?
(Chivas Regal 25 Year Old and cocaine probably cost the same though
)
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ampan,
You're fishing for a bite, and I'll oblige.
Firstly, for those who want to justify their pro-drug position by mentioning smokes and booze, alcohol and tobacco are drugs of addiction, no dispute there.
Smoking has virtually undisputed negative side effects. Alcohol in moderation has a low incidence of negative side effects both physical and psychological. 'Recreational' drugs have much higher incidences of negative side effects, both physical and psychological. Alcohol and tobacco are licenced and regulated substances, 'recreational' drugs are not regulated, not licenced, not tested and not safe. The effects of a single use of these drugs can last a life time.
I used to work with a guy called Bob who was a recreational user. He never got past "level 1 or 2" drug use, never was a dealer or that close to the underbelly side of things, he was just a private guy doing drugs. As a result of his recreational habits he acquired permanent nerve damage, skin problems, paranoia, memory trouble and a bunch of social dysfunctions. (Hands up who would buy a ticket to travel on an aircraft knowing that he was the captain?) Don't get me wrong, if you just met this bloke you probably wouldn't notice anything at all, but when the chips were down this guy became something/someone else entirely. Most of the women in the company eventually refused to work with or near him and plenty of the guys wrote him off and dismissed him completely. I still bump into him every year or two around Albury and although he has been off the drugs for nearly 25 years, he has not made any improvements in the last 20 years.
Lets apply a little common sense here: alcohol and tobacco are known substances and their effect on a person is quantifiable, illicit drugs are not. How can a user know the full chemistry of the bathtub speed they are taking? The reason it is legal to drink and smoke (although the government would love to get rid of smoking) but not allowed to take drugs, is because recreational drugs are dangerous, no matter how many sympathisers bang on and say otherwise.
Despite what anyone may think after reading this; I don't condemn the guy who started this thread, or any others who have made the bad decision to get involved with drugs. I wish you hadn't done it, but it is your choice and you are free to make it. I have seen many people give up the drugs and try to get on with their lives, it can be done.
ABX
Ps. I belong to an organisation that has a branch involved in providing drug rehab for people trying to get off the stuff, I do know what I'm talking about.
...but what's the difference between a whatever-it-is of cocaine and half a bottle of Chevas Regal?
Firstly, for those who want to justify their pro-drug position by mentioning smokes and booze, alcohol and tobacco are drugs of addiction, no dispute there.
Smoking has virtually undisputed negative side effects. Alcohol in moderation has a low incidence of negative side effects both physical and psychological. 'Recreational' drugs have much higher incidences of negative side effects, both physical and psychological. Alcohol and tobacco are licenced and regulated substances, 'recreational' drugs are not regulated, not licenced, not tested and not safe. The effects of a single use of these drugs can last a life time.
I used to work with a guy called Bob who was a recreational user. He never got past "level 1 or 2" drug use, never was a dealer or that close to the underbelly side of things, he was just a private guy doing drugs. As a result of his recreational habits he acquired permanent nerve damage, skin problems, paranoia, memory trouble and a bunch of social dysfunctions. (Hands up who would buy a ticket to travel on an aircraft knowing that he was the captain?) Don't get me wrong, if you just met this bloke you probably wouldn't notice anything at all, but when the chips were down this guy became something/someone else entirely. Most of the women in the company eventually refused to work with or near him and plenty of the guys wrote him off and dismissed him completely. I still bump into him every year or two around Albury and although he has been off the drugs for nearly 25 years, he has not made any improvements in the last 20 years.
Lets apply a little common sense here: alcohol and tobacco are known substances and their effect on a person is quantifiable, illicit drugs are not. How can a user know the full chemistry of the bathtub speed they are taking? The reason it is legal to drink and smoke (although the government would love to get rid of smoking) but not allowed to take drugs, is because recreational drugs are dangerous, no matter how many sympathisers bang on and say otherwise.
Despite what anyone may think after reading this; I don't condemn the guy who started this thread, or any others who have made the bad decision to get involved with drugs. I wish you hadn't done it, but it is your choice and you are free to make it. I have seen many people give up the drugs and try to get on with their lives, it can be done.
ABX
Ps. I belong to an organisation that has a branch involved in providing drug rehab for people trying to get off the stuff, I do know what I'm talking about.
I think there are a number of issues here that are getting confused.
For the record, we are talking about a nineteen year old who allegedly spent a year doing recreational drugs at clubs on weekends - but he quit playing with drugs two months ago because he wants to pursue an aviation career - and now he is worried about whether he should tell a DAME.
My view is that on learning the circumstances, I suspect many DAMES would either say or think "I wish you hadn't told me that", because once the confession is in writing on your medical record, your aviation career is over before it's started - that's why some of us told Cetnik to change his nickname if he proceeds.
The related issues are as follows:
Approximately 40% of people over 14 have used illegal drugs at least once in their life. 17% have used within the last year. That means, on the balance of probabilities, that 40% of the aviation workforce would be in exactly the same boat Note: It does not mean that 40% of you are addicts.
What it implies is that if the pilot population is broadly similar to the general population and everyone wrote "no drug use" on their medical questionnaire then there is a 40% chance they are lying. Please don't feel insulted, it's just a statistical conclusion.
As for the actual percentage of aviation professionals who will get nailed by random drug tests, I would expect it will be well under half a percent, as it is apparently with other transport professionals.
The unrelated issues:
Drug use in general, I'm dead against it. Marijuana is vastly underrated as a destroyer of careers, it is NOT a harmless recreational drug, there is no such thing. As for the rest, yuck!
Penalties for dealers? Hanging in the town square.
Soft on drugs hard on drugs? Wrong question: Make drug use and it's consequences an entirely medical/behavioural matter and keep the police right out of it.
Penalties for pilots that get caught? Should be the same as the US alcoholism policy, grounded, treated, tested regularly and eventually returned to flying with regular testing. Second offence, you are out.
I suspect if illegal drugs were available when I was a kid, at a price I could have afforded, I might have decided to try them as well, just out of curiosity - but alcohol got to me first!
Gee it's Friday night and almost time for my legal Cab. Sav. "fix"
For the record, we are talking about a nineteen year old who allegedly spent a year doing recreational drugs at clubs on weekends - but he quit playing with drugs two months ago because he wants to pursue an aviation career - and now he is worried about whether he should tell a DAME.
My view is that on learning the circumstances, I suspect many DAMES would either say or think "I wish you hadn't told me that", because once the confession is in writing on your medical record, your aviation career is over before it's started - that's why some of us told Cetnik to change his nickname if he proceeds.
The related issues are as follows:
Approximately 40% of people over 14 have used illegal drugs at least once in their life. 17% have used within the last year. That means, on the balance of probabilities, that 40% of the aviation workforce would be in exactly the same boat Note: It does not mean that 40% of you are addicts.
What it implies is that if the pilot population is broadly similar to the general population and everyone wrote "no drug use" on their medical questionnaire then there is a 40% chance they are lying. Please don't feel insulted, it's just a statistical conclusion.
As for the actual percentage of aviation professionals who will get nailed by random drug tests, I would expect it will be well under half a percent, as it is apparently with other transport professionals.
The unrelated issues:
Drug use in general, I'm dead against it. Marijuana is vastly underrated as a destroyer of careers, it is NOT a harmless recreational drug, there is no such thing. As for the rest, yuck!
Penalties for dealers? Hanging in the town square.
Soft on drugs hard on drugs? Wrong question: Make drug use and it's consequences an entirely medical/behavioural matter and keep the police right out of it.
Penalties for pilots that get caught? Should be the same as the US alcoholism policy, grounded, treated, tested regularly and eventually returned to flying with regular testing. Second offence, you are out.
I suspect if illegal drugs were available when I was a kid, at a price I could have afforded, I might have decided to try them as well, just out of curiosity - but alcohol got to me first!
Gee it's Friday night and almost time for my legal Cab. Sav. "fix"
Bottums Up
Drugs. Close to top of the list of most parents, parental nightmares!
Personally I'm surprised that the stats for 'illegal' drug usage are as low as they are (40%).
As for calling the police, or draging one's offspring off to them, well, when faced with situation of Claret Junior's dalliance with dope, I spoke with a friendly legal eagle. She explained that the risks of an adverse criminal record were high.
Now I wouldn't execute a person for taking drugs, much less my own children, so in the first instance, I'd prefer not to lumber them with a record either.
Now in their mid 20s, do they take drugs? I don't know. They say not. I hope not. But I'd be naive to believe that they tell me everything and that it would be impossible for them to partake.
Personally I'm surprised that the stats for 'illegal' drug usage are as low as they are (40%).
As for calling the police, or draging one's offspring off to them, well, when faced with situation of Claret Junior's dalliance with dope, I spoke with a friendly legal eagle. She explained that the risks of an adverse criminal record were high.
Now I wouldn't execute a person for taking drugs, much less my own children, so in the first instance, I'd prefer not to lumber them with a record either.
Now in their mid 20s, do they take drugs? I don't know. They say not. I hope not. But I'd be naive to believe that they tell me everything and that it would be impossible for them to partake.
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Well said Claret. Thats the bottom line - that taking drugs (occasionally) CAN be hidden from parents, and sometimes even friends.
A mate of mine dabbled for months before any of us found out - and to this day, his parents have never been the wiser. Between Uni and Work, its so easy for him to hide it from the 'rentals.
Like most, I am NOT condoning the use of drugs, and have never taken them, nor will I ever. But, frankly, the fact is that they are being used by many, many kids, who can subsequently hide the fact so easily from their parents.
What can be done? Who knows. Maybe more crackdowns by parents, curfews, allowance cuts. In my opinion, until kids are chained to their parents 24/7, then some will continue to ingest illegal substances behind the backs of their folks..
A mate of mine dabbled for months before any of us found out - and to this day, his parents have never been the wiser. Between Uni and Work, its so easy for him to hide it from the 'rentals.
Like most, I am NOT condoning the use of drugs, and have never taken them, nor will I ever. But, frankly, the fact is that they are being used by many, many kids, who can subsequently hide the fact so easily from their parents.
What can be done? Who knows. Maybe more crackdowns by parents, curfews, allowance cuts. In my opinion, until kids are chained to their parents 24/7, then some will continue to ingest illegal substances behind the backs of their folks..
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Geez....
Again, the reason drugs are becoming an increasing problem is this pussy "go soft" approach advocated by many posting here.
I give up.
Let the fools pop their pills. It will catch up with them one day. I just hope they don't take any innocent people out with them
Also hope those that encouraged junkies to join the industry will accept some responsibility if innocent people are hurt.
Again, the reason drugs are becoming an increasing problem is this pussy "go soft" approach advocated by many posting here.
I give up.
Let the fools pop their pills. It will catch up with them one day. I just hope they don't take any innocent people out with them
Also hope those that encouraged junkies to join the industry will accept some responsibility if innocent people are hurt.
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This topic has drifted to how "us" teens can be caught with drugs and the like, and what should be done.
This topic was to answer whether he'd be okay with flying after a history of drugs.
However, because I'm a little sh*te, i'll add to the topic.
I really think, that teens can be sensible, or not. Those who aren't deserve the consequences.
Honestly, a bit of <insert drug here, excepting Crystal Meth> never hurt anybody. Some would think of it as a thing you could try once. Many drug users start due to peer pressure, and love it. One of my close friends smokes weed, and she is against everything else, including alcohol. She is fine, and sensible about it, as sensible as someone using weed can be. She uses it on weekends, never on weekdays, due to school etc.
Of course it will destroy braincells and the like, but it isn't a scratch compared to the debilitating effects of drugs like Crystal Meth.
Anyway, the teens have ALL seen the facts, I can guarantee it. It is their choice to decide whether to take them seriously, or just think of them as 'fuel' against the use of drugs.
I admit that parents ARE responsible for the actions of their children, but if children are deceitful and dishonest with their parents, then they know what is coming.
I have seen someone at my school go from a pretty smart kid, to someone who just looks blankly while someone talks to him, probably because he spent (literally) Thousands of dollars on drugs, and he is probably stoned half the time anyway.
I have good friends who use weed occasionally, and they are still getting B's and even A's at school. Which, i've seen is a step up from previous results, due to increased study effort knowing that it counts for their leaving result.
As for me, I have seen the warnings, and:
a) stayed completely away from drug culture;
b) when offered drugs, just said no, or whatever, even if it does affect my popularity.
c) I am lucky enough to have a small group of close friends as my friend base, who either is totally against drugs, or doesn't try and persuade you to use drugs. One of them asked me, I said 'no', and they didn't pursue it further.
This topic was to answer whether he'd be okay with flying after a history of drugs.
However, because I'm a little sh*te, i'll add to the topic.
I really think, that teens can be sensible, or not. Those who aren't deserve the consequences.
Honestly, a bit of <insert drug here, excepting Crystal Meth> never hurt anybody. Some would think of it as a thing you could try once. Many drug users start due to peer pressure, and love it. One of my close friends smokes weed, and she is against everything else, including alcohol. She is fine, and sensible about it, as sensible as someone using weed can be. She uses it on weekends, never on weekdays, due to school etc.
Of course it will destroy braincells and the like, but it isn't a scratch compared to the debilitating effects of drugs like Crystal Meth.
Anyway, the teens have ALL seen the facts, I can guarantee it. It is their choice to decide whether to take them seriously, or just think of them as 'fuel' against the use of drugs.
I admit that parents ARE responsible for the actions of their children, but if children are deceitful and dishonest with their parents, then they know what is coming.
I have seen someone at my school go from a pretty smart kid, to someone who just looks blankly while someone talks to him, probably because he spent (literally) Thousands of dollars on drugs, and he is probably stoned half the time anyway.
I have good friends who use weed occasionally, and they are still getting B's and even A's at school. Which, i've seen is a step up from previous results, due to increased study effort knowing that it counts for their leaving result.
As for me, I have seen the warnings, and:
a) stayed completely away from drug culture;
b) when offered drugs, just said no, or whatever, even if it does affect my popularity.
c) I am lucky enough to have a small group of close friends as my friend base, who either is totally against drugs, or doesn't try and persuade you to use drugs. One of them asked me, I said 'no', and they didn't pursue it further.
If you had 2 guys/girls standing in front of your desk with exactly the same resume, and 1 had NEVER tried illegal drugs, but the other had, which one would you choose?
Some people here are saying the drug experimenter because he has more life experiences, others are saying the clean applicant because he had the willpower not to try drugs.
Who would you choose? I know which 1 I would pick...
Some people here are saying the drug experimenter because he has more life experiences, others are saying the clean applicant because he had the willpower not to try drugs.
Who would you choose? I know which 1 I would pick...
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If you had 2 guys/girls standing in front of your desk with exactly the same resume, and 1 had NEVER tried illegal drugs, but the other had, which one would you choose?
Some people here are saying the drug experimenter because he has more life experiences, others are saying the clean applicant because he had the willpower not to try drugs.
Who would you choose? I know which 1 I would pick...
Some people here are saying the drug experimenter because he has more life experiences, others are saying the clean applicant because he had the willpower not to try drugs.
Who would you choose? I know which 1 I would pick...
Last time there was any sort of mass catch up with people I went to school with... the guys who I knew had been messing with drugs had still never been away from home and really couldn't offer anything substantial with what they'd done since leaving school. (Ok some had some funny stories of when they'd been completely fubar'd, but they were really no more interesting than the stories from people not on drugs but happened to have a big night out on the piss, including one going to the toilet near closing time at a pub overseas and getting locked in the pub for the night from 4am until 10:30am when they reopened).
Meanwhile I had a CPL, CIR/ME, aerobatics rating
a full time job, been overseas for a little bit, seen a lot of Australia driving around looking for flying work, flown to places most people had never heard of, seen the sunrise and sunset from altitude, loved (and lost). I'd also met some of the most amazing people doing the most amazing things.So to answer your question.. if I had two people at my desk with exactly the same resume, first of all I'd be trying to establish who copied who, or why their mother gave them both the same name at birth. Then I'd most likely be giving the job to the person who interviews better.
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Honestly, a bit of <insert drug here, excepting Crystal Meth> never hurt anybody.
Heroin and Cocaine have extremely complicated physical addictive properties, which ultimately lead the user back again, and again, and again, after the very first "hit". Its the catalyst in the leadup for individual personal self destruction, I have seen it happen to many people over the years and it is upsetting to see not to mention downright disturbing.
THC on the other hand does not hold the same addictive properties as the above, but statistics have proven that people who experiment with the lesser drugs ie THC, move onto the more harder drugs such as Heroin, Cocaine and even Methamphetamines, after they have satisfied their curiosity & want to try something else a bit stronger.
So to be saying that a "bit of drugs except crystal meth never hurt anybody" is extremely naive and misleading.
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Mr Milk's comment about religious people having their head filled with crap IS so true. Mr Milk is certainly an observant human being.
Ever noticed that over zealous christians ( or Muslims.....) ARE a bit zombie like? Don't seem to be able to follow logical arguments, is also a phrase that comes to mind. They stare at their wrist a lot (WWJD) and seem to think something out there will save them. Really not much different from my mate Chris who smokes one joint a day. Cept Chris just stares ahead and uses the word Big Bird instead of Jesus.
Cetnik, I hope for you sake you are not a religious nut as well.
Ever noticed that over zealous christians ( or Muslims.....) ARE a bit zombie like? Don't seem to be able to follow logical arguments, is also a phrase that comes to mind. They stare at their wrist a lot (WWJD) and seem to think something out there will save them. Really not much different from my mate Chris who smokes one joint a day. Cept Chris just stares ahead and uses the word Big Bird instead of Jesus.
Cetnik, I hope for you sake you are not a religious nut as well.
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Bring it On.
This is a very interesting post especially considering the imminent introduction of random drug testing within the aviation community.
What particularly intrigues me are those rabid 'anti drug' commentators who happily admit to smoking and drinking.
In my opinion it is impossible when considering the statistics and other known performance data, to take a positive stance on one and a negative stance on the other. Health workers, academics ,safety authorities and even the government have understood this for a long time.
Take a look at the facts. (Report on costs of drugs to the Aust Community, Macquarie Univ. 2008)
In one year (2004-5) there was $9.2 billion lost in workplace productivity due to tobacco or alcohol and $3.2 billion in road accidents caused by alcohol.
Of the total cost to Australia economy per year of $56 billion (yes billion), $15.3 billion is attributed to alcohol, $31.5 billion to tobacco, and $8.2 billion to other illicit drugs.
Tests done by the ADF and others show that ANY consumption of alcohol impairs performance.
The hangover from even so called 'moderate' recent alcohol consumption impairs performance even more than a drink itself.
Now that we have a prohibition from smoking in many work and public places, what are the effects of nicotine withdrawal on performance in the short term, such as on long flights with difficult terminating procedures? And what about impaired O2 saturation in an emergency?
Those people investigating these links know how real and serious they are.
I for one am sick of filthy fagging pilots, pissed or hung over guys calling in sick OR ill because of their lifestyle habits; and having to pay the huge cost these weak spongers place on me (and the community) in the form of increased operating costs, my medical benefit contribution costs, and all the other costs (taxes) stemming from their self righteous habits. ie 56bill divided by 22mill people is $2545 for every man, woman and child in Australia, per year and that does not take into account the immense pain and suffering caused to innocent people by these habits.
So you self righteous bigots, take a look at yourselves and the **** you're causing, and when you've cleaned up your own act, then consider giving advise to others.
As for you Cetnic, start your Aviation career by making your first command decision, get off all drugs and stay off. If you can't do that, forget it.
BP
What particularly intrigues me are those rabid 'anti drug' commentators who happily admit to smoking and drinking.
In my opinion it is impossible when considering the statistics and other known performance data, to take a positive stance on one and a negative stance on the other. Health workers, academics ,safety authorities and even the government have understood this for a long time.
Take a look at the facts. (Report on costs of drugs to the Aust Community, Macquarie Univ. 2008)
In one year (2004-5) there was $9.2 billion lost in workplace productivity due to tobacco or alcohol and $3.2 billion in road accidents caused by alcohol.
Of the total cost to Australia economy per year of $56 billion (yes billion), $15.3 billion is attributed to alcohol, $31.5 billion to tobacco, and $8.2 billion to other illicit drugs.
Tests done by the ADF and others show that ANY consumption of alcohol impairs performance.
The hangover from even so called 'moderate' recent alcohol consumption impairs performance even more than a drink itself.
Now that we have a prohibition from smoking in many work and public places, what are the effects of nicotine withdrawal on performance in the short term, such as on long flights with difficult terminating procedures? And what about impaired O2 saturation in an emergency?
Those people investigating these links know how real and serious they are.
I for one am sick of filthy fagging pilots, pissed or hung over guys calling in sick OR ill because of their lifestyle habits; and having to pay the huge cost these weak spongers place on me (and the community) in the form of increased operating costs, my medical benefit contribution costs, and all the other costs (taxes) stemming from their self righteous habits. ie 56bill divided by 22mill people is $2545 for every man, woman and child in Australia, per year and that does not take into account the immense pain and suffering caused to innocent people by these habits.
So you self righteous bigots, take a look at yourselves and the **** you're causing, and when you've cleaned up your own act, then consider giving advise to others.
As for you Cetnic, start your Aviation career by making your first command decision, get off all drugs and stay off. If you can't do that, forget it.
BP
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mate, we were all young once and part of being young is screwing up and learning from our mistakes, you`ll get ppl here that are quick to critisize but just remember there is more crap talked on this forum than could be thought possible, and many ppl here will get a hard on for flaming you. Be honest with yourself: do you really want to fly for a living and enjoy a unique career, or do you want to look back when you get older and regret blowing your chances. Stop hanging out with ppl that will influence you in the wrong way, and get your act together. If you don`t, You WILL regret it.
Sorry Kalevo, the comment I made referred to a post made by another user several pages back where they stated (or words to that effect) that using drugs is a life experience, and that those who hadn't used somehow missed out on an important life experience..... Personally I prefer the option of being the only one in the sky at dusk over Central oz to being smashed on the garage floor of my olds house, but hey I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be a worthwhile experience. 
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Just to provoke some thought...
An earlier post asked what would be thought of somebody using cannabis legally in Amsterdam, and then being tested in Australia...
Our child protection laws are such that if you have sex with an under 16 year old oversea, regardless of that country's age of consent, you can be prosecuted on your return.
How is the above example any different in principle?
An earlier post asked what would be thought of somebody using cannabis legally in Amsterdam, and then being tested in Australia...
Our child protection laws are such that if you have sex with an under 16 year old oversea, regardless of that country's age of consent, you can be prosecuted on your return.
How is the above example any different in principle?
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An earlier post asked what would be thought of somebody using cannabis legally in Amsterdam, and then being tested in Australia...
Our child protection laws are such that if you have sex with an under 16 year old oversea, regardless of that country's age of consent, you can be prosecuted on your return.
Our child protection laws are such that if you have sex with an under 16 year old oversea, regardless of that country's age of consent, you can be prosecuted on your return.
I think this thread has run its course, so why dont we all come to a conclusion(s):
1. Illicit Drugs are bad, and should never be consumed (especially by pilots). No one is debating this fact.
2. No matter the amount of legislation and control, illegal substances will continue to be consumed by both juveniles and professionals alike.
What more needs to be said? Complaining and arguing based on personal perception will acheive nothing, especially on a rumor forum. Besides, if someone is that bothered about the subject, there is a local seat in government that you could run for....
Mins