Firearms and aircraft
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Firearms and aircraft
As a GA pilot operating into remote areas, I have been required relatively frequently to carry firearms for pax -predominantly hunters on their way to or from a hunting block. When I do so, there are a few things I'm looking for:
From the above you may have guessed that I'm not tremendously familiar with firearms. That's a fair assessment, and I can add to it the bloody things scare me ****less. I don't like them, I don't like carrying them, but on occasion, that is part of the operation.
Years ago I had a hunter get quite staunch and upstanding when I asked for the ammo and firing mechanism to be removed and to visually verify the weapon he presented for carriage was safe -he considered my request to be a slight to his professionalism in handling weapons. I got quite a long rant of how many years he had been using weapons, all the usual horse-hockey. Even when I pointed out that I had an aircraft-full of other pax to look after, not to mention the safety of the flight itself, he was still unwilling to comply. It was not until I pointed out to him that if he didn't comply, that I would have to consider whether or not he would be allowed to board the flight that he grudgingly opened the weapon case. Guess what? He had a loaded magazine on the weapon.
Another situation I'm not too sure about is police or security personnel that have a permit to carry a loaded and concealed weapon on their person in-flight. They are required by law to advise the PinC of the presence of the weapon prior to boarding. I haven't had this circumstance yet, but I reckon did it arise and there was no obvious, clear and immediate need for them to be carrying that weapon, I would ask for it to be disabled and carried separately again, despite the presence of permits. This is GA remember, not the heavy end of town.
I'm keen to hear others' stories of how they handle this sort of situation and particularly what safety checks (if any) you make of the weapon prior to accepting it for carriage. I reckon some of you ex and current PNG boys would have some tales to tell!
- The weapon is unloaded -magazine removed or visually verified empty, carried separately, usually under my seat,
- Safety locks engaged,
- Trigger-locks (if available) installed and locked,
- Firing-pin removed if possible, carried separately, and
- Ammunition carried separately.
From the above you may have guessed that I'm not tremendously familiar with firearms. That's a fair assessment, and I can add to it the bloody things scare me ****less. I don't like them, I don't like carrying them, but on occasion, that is part of the operation.
Years ago I had a hunter get quite staunch and upstanding when I asked for the ammo and firing mechanism to be removed and to visually verify the weapon he presented for carriage was safe -he considered my request to be a slight to his professionalism in handling weapons. I got quite a long rant of how many years he had been using weapons, all the usual horse-hockey. Even when I pointed out that I had an aircraft-full of other pax to look after, not to mention the safety of the flight itself, he was still unwilling to comply. It was not until I pointed out to him that if he didn't comply, that I would have to consider whether or not he would be allowed to board the flight that he grudgingly opened the weapon case. Guess what? He had a loaded magazine on the weapon.
Another situation I'm not too sure about is police or security personnel that have a permit to carry a loaded and concealed weapon on their person in-flight. They are required by law to advise the PinC of the presence of the weapon prior to boarding. I haven't had this circumstance yet, but I reckon did it arise and there was no obvious, clear and immediate need for them to be carrying that weapon, I would ask for it to be disabled and carried separately again, despite the presence of permits. This is GA remember, not the heavy end of town.
I'm keen to hear others' stories of how they handle this sort of situation and particularly what safety checks (if any) you make of the weapon prior to accepting it for carriage. I reckon some of you ex and current PNG boys would have some tales to tell!
Last edited by kiwiblue; 11th Sep 2007 at 00:51. Reason: nike's correction!
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this is from my ops manual
FIREARMS
A firearm will not be accepted for carriage on a company aircraft unless the firearm bolt can be carried in a baggage compartment that is not accessible from the cabin while the aircraft is in flight. If the bolt cannot be removed, the firearm may be carried in a baggage compartment that is not accessible from the cabin while the aircraft is in flight. A firearm may be carried as general cargo in an aircraft not engaged in passenger carrying operations. All firearms must be empty of ammunition
The discharge of firearms from company operated aircraft is prohibited unless the operation is an aerial work function approved in the AOC and is conducted in accordance with procedures given in Part D of this manual
regarding police and security
Ammunition, securely boxed (in Division 1.4S, UN 0012 or UN 0014 only), in quantities not exceeding 5kg (11lbs) gross weight per person for that person’s own use, excluding ammunition with explosive or incendiary projectiles. Allowances for more than one passenger must not be combined into one of more package
just our policy but i think it will be the same across the board. We just dont do it. I think ihave only ever had 1 person ask for us to do it but we didnt win it anyway
FIREARMS
A firearm will not be accepted for carriage on a company aircraft unless the firearm bolt can be carried in a baggage compartment that is not accessible from the cabin while the aircraft is in flight. If the bolt cannot be removed, the firearm may be carried in a baggage compartment that is not accessible from the cabin while the aircraft is in flight. A firearm may be carried as general cargo in an aircraft not engaged in passenger carrying operations. All firearms must be empty of ammunition
The discharge of firearms from company operated aircraft is prohibited unless the operation is an aerial work function approved in the AOC and is conducted in accordance with procedures given in Part D of this manual
regarding police and security
Ammunition, securely boxed (in Division 1.4S, UN 0012 or UN 0014 only), in quantities not exceeding 5kg (11lbs) gross weight per person for that person’s own use, excluding ammunition with explosive or incendiary projectiles. Allowances for more than one passenger must not be combined into one of more package
just our policy but i think it will be the same across the board. We just dont do it. I think ihave only ever had 1 person ask for us to do it but we didnt win it anyway
When the weapon is loaded, I make sure that the muzzle is pointing aft to reduce the risk of catastrophic results in the event of an accidental discharge, and the weapon is as secure as I can make it.
"when the weapon is loaded........and the weapon is as secure as I can make it"?????
That paragraph is misleading in the sense that I am sure you meant to say something to the effect that you are not allowing loaded firearms to be placed on the aircraft for transit.
Right?
There's nothing scarey about guns - unlike some of the f*ckwits who still manage to get their hands on them!
I think Bizzybody has it pretty well covered.
"When the weapon is loaded, I make sure that the muzzle is pointing aft to reduce the risk of catastrophic results in the event of an accidental discharge, and the weapon is as secure as I can make it."
Hard to imagine a circumstance, these days, where there is a need to carry a loaded weapon in an aircraft, apart from aerial shooting operations.
When engaged in aerial shooting (mostly choppers) I have always had a door off and the muzzle out the door. Have seen one Bell 47 bubble killed stone dead by a 12 g SSG blast.
Have used "scare" cartridges fired from a 12 g when mustering cattle - same deal - door off and muzzle pointed out the door at all times.
Ah, the good old days - used to carry a range of weaponry (favourite 357 magnum) for stock destruction!
Still have vivid memories of a night in a well known pub in NW Qld when the publican came over the bar with a Colt 45 Auto, to politely ask a customer to leave!
Dr
I think Bizzybody has it pretty well covered.
"When the weapon is loaded, I make sure that the muzzle is pointing aft to reduce the risk of catastrophic results in the event of an accidental discharge, and the weapon is as secure as I can make it."
Hard to imagine a circumstance, these days, where there is a need to carry a loaded weapon in an aircraft, apart from aerial shooting operations.
When engaged in aerial shooting (mostly choppers) I have always had a door off and the muzzle out the door. Have seen one Bell 47 bubble killed stone dead by a 12 g SSG blast.
Have used "scare" cartridges fired from a 12 g when mustering cattle - same deal - door off and muzzle pointed out the door at all times.
Ah, the good old days - used to carry a range of weaponry (favourite 357 magnum) for stock destruction!
Still have vivid memories of a night in a well known pub in NW Qld when the publican came over the bar with a Colt 45 Auto, to politely ask a customer to leave!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 11th Sep 2007 at 02:00.
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FTDK always a good idea when shooting out the side of the bell or kwaka that the spent rounds don't get caught underneath the pedals. A mate had that problem way back in the day and got a real fright.
Kiwi, I was officer in charge of all range work in my army unit many moons ago, just a couple of points....
1.If a person stands on his "Professionalism" and refuses to present their weapon for inspection, they are not a professional at all, period. No comply then no fly, period.
2. Nobody has ever been killed in a "loaded" firearm accident, they were all unloaded of course.
3. The only absolutely sure way of telling a weapon is unloaded is to stick your finger in the firing chamber while looking down the barrel. If you can see your finger wiggle, there is not a round in the chamber. If there is no magazine or ammunition anywhere in the breach and there is no round accidentally stuck to the face of the bolt, or the bolt is removed, you may consider the weapon is unloaded. The bit in bold almost ended my military career.
4. Even when its unloaded, never ever point the thing in the direction of a person or the aircraft. Treat it as if its still loaded.
5. Every time you pick up a weapon do step #3 again, even if you did it only five minutes ago.
6. Carry shotguns "broken" (unlocked). Rifles with their bolts removed and stored separately, ammo seperately again. Do not ever rely on a safety catch as your only means of security - they can fail.
7. And please please don't ever, ever, accept that a weapon does not need to be checked (step#3) because "It's broken/damaged/missing a bit" or "We haven't used it" or "it's brand new, still in its box" or "I just checked it". The first of those also almost ended my military career.
You might consider doing a firearms safety course if you are going to have to do this on a regular basis.
1.If a person stands on his "Professionalism" and refuses to present their weapon for inspection, they are not a professional at all, period. No comply then no fly, period.
2. Nobody has ever been killed in a "loaded" firearm accident, they were all unloaded of course.
3. The only absolutely sure way of telling a weapon is unloaded is to stick your finger in the firing chamber while looking down the barrel. If you can see your finger wiggle, there is not a round in the chamber. If there is no magazine or ammunition anywhere in the breach and there is no round accidentally stuck to the face of the bolt, or the bolt is removed, you may consider the weapon is unloaded. The bit in bold almost ended my military career.
4. Even when its unloaded, never ever point the thing in the direction of a person or the aircraft. Treat it as if its still loaded.
5. Every time you pick up a weapon do step #3 again, even if you did it only five minutes ago.
6. Carry shotguns "broken" (unlocked). Rifles with their bolts removed and stored separately, ammo seperately again. Do not ever rely on a safety catch as your only means of security - they can fail.
7. And please please don't ever, ever, accept that a weapon does not need to be checked (step#3) because "It's broken/damaged/missing a bit" or "We haven't used it" or "it's brand new, still in its box" or "I just checked it". The first of those also almost ended my military career.
You might consider doing a firearms safety course if you are going to have to do this on a regular basis.
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Originally Posted by FTDK
...unlike some of the f*ckwits who still manage to get their hands on them!
Sunfish: thanks! Being ex-military can you give any safe, simple pointers to those of us who are gun-ignorant please? Are there any checks that can be simply made beyond those outlined in the original post or in your post? And I agree: my attitude has always been if they ain't prepared to prove the weapon is safe, then neither they nor the weapon fly.
Originally Posted by sunfish
...stick your finger in the firing chamber while looking down the barrel.
KB
Rifles and semi-auto pistols
1) Point the muzzle of the thing at the ground
2) Remove the magazine
3) Cycle the action 6 times
4) Look in the chamber to ensure that there is not a round stuck in the barrel
5) Remove the bolt/breach block
Lever actions
1) Empty the magazine
2) Cycle the action 6 times
3) Hold the action open and check that there are no rounds in the chamber
4) Close the action, lower the hammer and put the safety on
Revolvers
1) Drop all rounds out of the cylinder
2) Remove the cylinder
Shotguns
1) Never come across one that could not be broken down (ie pulled apart into 3 bits - barrell(s), stock/trigger assembly, forestock (?))
Hav'em do the above in front of you.
If they refuse - tell'm to walk.
Dr
PS: If this is a significant issue for you - get good weapons training - not the crappy pay-your-money-and-get-told-the-answers-to-the-exam-you-have-to-do-to-get-a-firearms-safety-training-certificate.
PPS: A highlight of my somewhat inauspicious military career was walking into the UQ branch of the Commonwealth Bank through the middle of an anti-Vietman war rally, with an Owen sub-machine gun tucked under my arm, to collect an army pay-roll!
Amazing how people give you a wide berth when you have one of them things! If they only knew what I knew - IT WASN"T LOADED!
Rifles and semi-auto pistols
1) Point the muzzle of the thing at the ground
2) Remove the magazine
3) Cycle the action 6 times
4) Look in the chamber to ensure that there is not a round stuck in the barrel
5) Remove the bolt/breach block
Lever actions
1) Empty the magazine
2) Cycle the action 6 times
3) Hold the action open and check that there are no rounds in the chamber
4) Close the action, lower the hammer and put the safety on
Revolvers
1) Drop all rounds out of the cylinder
2) Remove the cylinder
Shotguns
1) Never come across one that could not be broken down (ie pulled apart into 3 bits - barrell(s), stock/trigger assembly, forestock (?))
Hav'em do the above in front of you.
If they refuse - tell'm to walk.
Dr
PS: If this is a significant issue for you - get good weapons training - not the crappy pay-your-money-and-get-told-the-answers-to-the-exam-you-have-to-do-to-get-a-firearms-safety-training-certificate.
PPS: A highlight of my somewhat inauspicious military career was walking into the UQ branch of the Commonwealth Bank through the middle of an anti-Vietman war rally, with an Owen sub-machine gun tucked under my arm, to collect an army pay-roll!
Amazing how people give you a wide berth when you have one of them things! If they only knew what I knew - IT WASN"T LOADED!
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 11th Sep 2007 at 04:45.
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of the bell or kwaka that the spent rounds don't get caught underneath the pedals
(this is a rumour network
)) with the floor covered in spent 357mag rounds. Bloody big fish them barramundi!
unlike some of the f*ckwits who still manage to get their hands on them!
'Always treat a weapon as if it's loaded' the old man always said and ' most accidents don't happen, they were usually planned by an idiot'
best be off the soapbox now
Kiwi, in low light situations, the finger in the hole and wiggle method is the only effective way. Its safe because the action has to be open to do it and if the weapon is of the fixed firing pin/bolt forward to fire, then all you will potentially suffer is a mashed finger anyway - hint :get the owner who is holding the weapon to shove their thumb in the breech, anyone army already knows the "inspect arms!" command.
To put it another way, one day you'll glance into a breach, looking for it to be clear, and you will miss the round stuck up the spout. Finger up the spout is the only way to be absolutely sure.
FTDK; Many many years ago I too remember pay parades and the Browning 9mm spoiled the cut of my uniform and my escort indeed carried either Owens or F1's. This was after the Sydney Airport pay parade robbery.
But guess what? The weapons were there for our personal protection only, - we were told that if robbed, we were to hand over the money, magazines were loaded, just not fitted.
P.S. My memory seems to tell me you need CASA Approval to carry weapons in an aircraft.
To put it another way, one day you'll glance into a breach, looking for it to be clear, and you will miss the round stuck up the spout. Finger up the spout is the only way to be absolutely sure.
FTDK; Many many years ago I too remember pay parades and the Browning 9mm spoiled the cut of my uniform and my escort indeed carried either Owens or F1's. This was after the Sydney Airport pay parade robbery.
But guess what? The weapons were there for our personal protection only, - we were told that if robbed, we were to hand over the money, magazines were loaded, just not fitted.
P.S. My memory seems to tell me you need CASA Approval to carry weapons in an aircraft.
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Interesting post.
Can anyone suggest 'reputable' weapons training courses around the country. I'm in Adelaide which will help me out. But others here I'm srure would be interested also.
Cheers.
Can anyone suggest 'reputable' weapons training courses around the country. I'm in Adelaide which will help me out. But others here I'm srure would be interested also.
Cheers.
AJM - Can't help you mate. They must be out there somewhere! I would hunt out someone with a military background.
The army weapons training I had was 1st rate, which is why when you read that an army "weapons expert" accidently shot himself while cleaning his pistol you think, "We'll that's crap"!
35 years later, if you need someone to blow up old car bodies with an M20 bazooka, I'm your man!
Dr
The army weapons training I had was 1st rate, which is why when you read that an army "weapons expert" accidently shot himself while cleaning his pistol you think, "We'll that's crap"!
35 years later, if you need someone to blow up old car bodies with an M20 bazooka, I'm your man!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 14th Sep 2007 at 11:41.
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ajm
Just front up to the nearest police station. They should be able to offer information on such a course - pretty sure you need to do one these days if you're applying for a gun licence.
A quick google and......
Here's a link to the NZ Police website, and about half way down is a downloadable Arms Code (PDF), also at the bottom of the page, translated in chinese and korean even! (No comment).
http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/
Just know the 7 basic rules.
Here's a link to the NZ Police website, and about half way down is a downloadable Arms Code (PDF), also at the bottom of the page, translated in chinese and korean even! (No comment).
http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/
Just know the 7 basic rules.
Just front up to the nearest police station. They should be able to offer information on such a course - pretty sure you need to do one these days if you're applying for a gun licence.
Correct. I had to do one a few years ago.
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There are only four rules of firearms safety that you need to know, you can break 2 and never get into trouble, but if you break three of them then harm can be done, just don't break any 
1. Treat every firearm as loaded.
2. Never point the firearm at something you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
4. Clearly identify your target and what is behind it.
My user name might give you some insight into what I do for a day job (hopefully give this up for a cockpit soon!), which also involves lots of weapons work.
Please also note the distinction (however much you want to split hairs) of a weapon and a firearm.
Anything can be a weapon including a firearm, but unless a firearm is used to hurt or harm people or property or conduct illegl acts then it is just an inanimate object and should be called a firearm and not a weapon.
Off my soap box now as well....
Cheers Mr Bomb
1. Treat every firearm as loaded.
2. Never point the firearm at something you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
4. Clearly identify your target and what is behind it.
My user name might give you some insight into what I do for a day job (hopefully give this up for a cockpit soon!), which also involves lots of weapons work.
Please also note the distinction (however much you want to split hairs) of a weapon and a firearm.
Anything can be a weapon including a firearm, but unless a firearm is used to hurt or harm people or property or conduct illegl acts then it is just an inanimate object and should be called a firearm and not a weapon.
Off my soap box now as well....
Cheers Mr Bomb
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Kiwi, in low light situations, the finger in the hole and wiggle method is the only effective way
Last edited by SmokingHole; 12th Sep 2007 at 14:26.