Airmanship at Ardmore.
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Airmanship at Ardmore.
Airmanship.
It's quite a simple concept really. If you are conducting a practice forced landing that sees you gliding straight through the traffic pattern of an airfield, the least you could do would be to tell the other aircraft that happened to be in the pattern what your intentions are.
Sadly that was not the case at Kelly field near Mercer on Monday. I joined the circuit at Kellys only to find an AFS C172 carrying out a practice forced landing that saw him or her glide right over the field at well less than circuit height, at right angles to the pattern. That would be OK if said aeroplane was landing at Kelly Field! In this instance, said 172 was gliding towards a paddock nearby.
OK - I could have lived with that! However common courtesy would have made things a tad easier for me. Perhaps a reply to my radio calls advising me of their intentions. I even asked! Not a reply. We extended a significant distance downwind to ensure clearance from this blind, deaf and obviously dumb aviator.
After landing, my passenger and I both sat back and watched as several AFS 172s practiced their forced landings into various paddocks nearby. It was as if Kelly Field did not even exist. There was no respect for the traffic pattern whatsoever! These aeroplanes glided overhead toward their chosen crash sites - one was no more than 2-300 feet (yes I can estimate heights rather well) and obviously did not know he was overhead an airfeild. As we departed, we made several radio calls to which we heard no reply offering advise on intentions or position.
On the subject of position, what is the "Big Green Shed". That raised myself and fellow friend/colleagues brows to hear another 172 commencing a forced landing from overhead "the big green shed". At least said instructor knew the difference between big and small, and had learnt his or her colours because they seemed to have learnt little about airmanship.
Perhaps it is time CFI took a wee look at what his junior instructors get up to while clear of the circuit. The fellow that shot past me doing a "beat-up" at Mercer several months ago, against the traffic direction and on the wrong frequency is a case in point. For my student, to see a 172 going past him in the opposite direction while we were only 200 feet after takeoff cemented in his mind where NOT to train.
Airmanship. It's got a much better ring than "human factors" don't you think? I can never see myself saying that I exercised good "human factors" by staying on the ground when the weather is bad. And our friends in Wellington wonder why the GA accident rate is so high.
I feel better now. And even more so when I report that next beat-up at Mercer to our friends in Wellington.
It's quite a simple concept really. If you are conducting a practice forced landing that sees you gliding straight through the traffic pattern of an airfield, the least you could do would be to tell the other aircraft that happened to be in the pattern what your intentions are.
Sadly that was not the case at Kelly field near Mercer on Monday. I joined the circuit at Kellys only to find an AFS C172 carrying out a practice forced landing that saw him or her glide right over the field at well less than circuit height, at right angles to the pattern. That would be OK if said aeroplane was landing at Kelly Field! In this instance, said 172 was gliding towards a paddock nearby.
OK - I could have lived with that! However common courtesy would have made things a tad easier for me. Perhaps a reply to my radio calls advising me of their intentions. I even asked! Not a reply. We extended a significant distance downwind to ensure clearance from this blind, deaf and obviously dumb aviator.
After landing, my passenger and I both sat back and watched as several AFS 172s practiced their forced landings into various paddocks nearby. It was as if Kelly Field did not even exist. There was no respect for the traffic pattern whatsoever! These aeroplanes glided overhead toward their chosen crash sites - one was no more than 2-300 feet (yes I can estimate heights rather well) and obviously did not know he was overhead an airfeild. As we departed, we made several radio calls to which we heard no reply offering advise on intentions or position.
On the subject of position, what is the "Big Green Shed". That raised myself and fellow friend/colleagues brows to hear another 172 commencing a forced landing from overhead "the big green shed". At least said instructor knew the difference between big and small, and had learnt his or her colours because they seemed to have learnt little about airmanship.
Perhaps it is time CFI took a wee look at what his junior instructors get up to while clear of the circuit. The fellow that shot past me doing a "beat-up" at Mercer several months ago, against the traffic direction and on the wrong frequency is a case in point. For my student, to see a 172 going past him in the opposite direction while we were only 200 feet after takeoff cemented in his mind where NOT to train.
Airmanship. It's got a much better ring than "human factors" don't you think? I can never see myself saying that I exercised good "human factors" by staying on the ground when the weather is bad. And our friends in Wellington wonder why the GA accident rate is so high.
I feel better now. And even more so when I report that next beat-up at Mercer to our friends in Wellington.
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Well I couldn't agree more.. more of this needs reporting. Unfortunately they sit around patting themselves on the back so much that they start to believe their own rubbish. I simply try to stay away from AR now.. I'm sick of getting pulled out in front of when on final forcing me to go around.. I think they think its funny. Airmanship doesn't enter into it.. as you rightly point out it is a lost term. .... Unfortunately the incoming pt141 requirements are going to remove more experienced part time instruction from the industry and force people to learn from pt141 organizations who are largely employing arrogant low time instructors that are just wanting to move on like they deserve .. or rather.. think they deserve. It doesn't bode well for the future.
Last edited by Itai101; 31st Jul 2007 at 05:58.
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The Green Shed
Yeh...gotta admit that the "airmanship" at Ardmore is "variable". I've experienced some really good airmanship along with the other types. I don't do alot in the circuit at AR, but do a bit out in the training area and the Mercer MBZ. It seems that some do not use the Mercer MBZ freq as each time I've been in there I seem to be the only one (apart from the meatbombers) that are making regular position reports. And it is a bit of a surprise to see other aircraft meander through the MBZ, or even operate inside it without the accomanying position reports. Must admit that I have used the "Green shed" (the lumberyard on the northwestern corner - eastern side of SH1 from Pokeno) from time to time as a reporting point as there is a nice straight 1km long road just adjacent to it that's a pretty good estimation of the size of an aerobatic box. I know of a few other aero pilots that also use this location for the same reason...
The green shed really does stick out like dogsballs...can't believe you haven't seen it.
[Edit] Added GoogleEarth pictures
Don't you just love GoogleEarth!!
Note the interchange on the south side of the Bombays.
The green shed really does stick out like dogsballs...can't believe you haven't seen it.
[Edit] Added GoogleEarth pictures
Don't you just love GoogleEarth!!
Note the interchange on the south side of the Bombays.
Last edited by slackie; 26th Jul 2007 at 02:55.
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I do know the shed you mean Slackie. However let's imagine a pilot from someplace south of Ardmore transitting through the Mercer MBZ and being unfamiliar with the "green shed". Her or she would have no idea where the aircraft are using it as a reporting point. Given the MBZ is not that large, surely it would be better to simply reference your position to Mercer AD?
I think I have suggested it here before, but those pilots who have little experience or knowledge of airfields other than AR should take a trip to Paraparaumu. My hat goes off to the operators there who, while undoubtedly on opposing "teams" exercise good airmanship and courtesy to all. I was impressed last time I went through PP to hear pilots offering to extend downwind so as to let other operators line up and take their time teaching the student pilot how to commence the takeoff roll without some balding CFI yelling at them to get off the runway!
Itai is quite correct - if the standards that the likes of AFS aspire to are "industry standard", said industry is in trouble. Thankfully there are other places in NZ where airmanship and professionalism are still taught. It's up to the industry to weed out those who have been through the lower standard processing plants and send the message back that what they produce are simply not good enough.
Heading off on a tangent other than the one I'm on now, perhaps the release of Cessna's 162 will see some of our smaller aero clubs start to recover. That's where we can see some decent standards taught. As Itai mentioned, it's up to industry now to ensure the changes to Part 141 as proposed by the AIA (oops I mean CAA) will permit the smaller aero clubs to operate the likes of a 162 within a sensible legal framework that will allow them to do so economically. If not, if the principle proponents of this rule change (the processing factories) get their way, there is no way our accident rate will reduce.
(For our goaty-bearded boy racer AFS fraternity, the AIA stands for "Aviation Industry Association" - it's a body of aviation-related company officials out to better their own bottom lines at the expense of standards and safety).
I think I have suggested it here before, but those pilots who have little experience or knowledge of airfields other than AR should take a trip to Paraparaumu. My hat goes off to the operators there who, while undoubtedly on opposing "teams" exercise good airmanship and courtesy to all. I was impressed last time I went through PP to hear pilots offering to extend downwind so as to let other operators line up and take their time teaching the student pilot how to commence the takeoff roll without some balding CFI yelling at them to get off the runway!
Itai is quite correct - if the standards that the likes of AFS aspire to are "industry standard", said industry is in trouble. Thankfully there are other places in NZ where airmanship and professionalism are still taught. It's up to the industry to weed out those who have been through the lower standard processing plants and send the message back that what they produce are simply not good enough.
Heading off on a tangent other than the one I'm on now, perhaps the release of Cessna's 162 will see some of our smaller aero clubs start to recover. That's where we can see some decent standards taught. As Itai mentioned, it's up to industry now to ensure the changes to Part 141 as proposed by the AIA (oops I mean CAA) will permit the smaller aero clubs to operate the likes of a 162 within a sensible legal framework that will allow them to do so economically. If not, if the principle proponents of this rule change (the processing factories) get their way, there is no way our accident rate will reduce.
(For our goaty-bearded boy racer AFS fraternity, the AIA stands for "Aviation Industry Association" - it's a body of aviation-related company officials out to better their own bottom lines at the expense of standards and safety).
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ah winge moan winge moan.
If you heard an aircraft report at the 'big green shed', and you did not know where it was, why did you not ask where it was?
I flew in around the ardmore circuit for a few years as an instructor, up until not too long ago. It all worked pretty good - all instructors from the various got on pretty well and we all knew everyone. The problem always arose when wallys from out of town, who did not read the lenghty information in the VOL 4 about proceedures at ardmore, came charging along and messed the circuit up. Some people seem to think that coming in via clevedon and calling 'establised' final 21 gave them right of way. Rubbish. But despite all the info in the aip and common sense people still do it and get cranky when they finally spot aircraft on a tight left base.
Oh and then theres the people who think a low level circuit will be great, then call the helicopter they just enncounted joining for the southern aiming point at 500ft!
With regards to FLWOP at mercer and surrounding paddocks. It is a training area, and there will always be problems when there are that many people around. If you see something you don't agree with, call the operators CFI and with a rego and a time tell them about the problem.
200-300 ft you say, well read part 91.311 very carefully. CAA themselves were even unclear on this a while back. They got a legal opinion on this matter which was an interesting read. But indeed going low around cattle is not a smart or clever thing to do!
Pt 141 - yes it seems like a total waste of time and resources to me, that will give smaller clubs a hard time. But who says a 141 needs to be a long winded full of crap document. It really only needs to be brief (as CAA told me once) stating whos incharge, responsible for what etc. I think that it could be good, but will definately make life hard for some instructors out there in their spare time treaching mates to fly.
Itai101 - so your sick of people forcing you to go around. Maybe you are one of the many people who see 4 aircraft at the holding pt, but still turn very close base? If this is not he case and you keep getting cut off, call unicom, call the CFI - or go and see the CFI!
ah well thats a little over my 10cents worth!
If you heard an aircraft report at the 'big green shed', and you did not know where it was, why did you not ask where it was?
I flew in around the ardmore circuit for a few years as an instructor, up until not too long ago. It all worked pretty good - all instructors from the various got on pretty well and we all knew everyone. The problem always arose when wallys from out of town, who did not read the lenghty information in the VOL 4 about proceedures at ardmore, came charging along and messed the circuit up. Some people seem to think that coming in via clevedon and calling 'establised' final 21 gave them right of way. Rubbish. But despite all the info in the aip and common sense people still do it and get cranky when they finally spot aircraft on a tight left base.
Oh and then theres the people who think a low level circuit will be great, then call the helicopter they just enncounted joining for the southern aiming point at 500ft!
With regards to FLWOP at mercer and surrounding paddocks. It is a training area, and there will always be problems when there are that many people around. If you see something you don't agree with, call the operators CFI and with a rego and a time tell them about the problem.
200-300 ft you say, well read part 91.311 very carefully. CAA themselves were even unclear on this a while back. They got a legal opinion on this matter which was an interesting read. But indeed going low around cattle is not a smart or clever thing to do!
Pt 141 - yes it seems like a total waste of time and resources to me, that will give smaller clubs a hard time. But who says a 141 needs to be a long winded full of crap document. It really only needs to be brief (as CAA told me once) stating whos incharge, responsible for what etc. I think that it could be good, but will definately make life hard for some instructors out there in their spare time treaching mates to fly.
Itai101 - so your sick of people forcing you to go around. Maybe you are one of the many people who see 4 aircraft at the holding pt, but still turn very close base? If this is not he case and you keep getting cut off, call unicom, call the CFI - or go and see the CFI!
ah well thats a little over my 10cents worth!
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Originally Posted by 6080 ft
ah well thats a little over my 10cents worth!
If I were you, I wouldn't be too proud that you once counted yourself amongst their mentors -the rest of us have seen the quality of your product.
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The main problem...
The main problem with most of the "product" that is turned out of AR is their lack of familiarity with controlled airspace. This isn't unexpected of course, as the bulk of their training is carried out without having to contend with those "scary controllers"!!
Unfortunately, since ATC was withdrawn from AR back in the 90s, the standard fell almost immediately and hasn't really recovered.
Clack100
Unfortunately to reference every position report to either Mercer or Kelly Field isn't without its problems either. It is surprising how different one pilot's "5nm" is from another. The number of times you hear "5nm east of xxxx" and the aircraft is actually "8nm WEST of xxx" would surprise you!!
I tend to use "the northwest edge of the Mercer MBZ" and sometimes include "StateHighway2" for those with better local knowledge.
Unfortunately, since ATC was withdrawn from AR back in the 90s, the standard fell almost immediately and hasn't really recovered.
Clack100
Unfortunately to reference every position report to either Mercer or Kelly Field isn't without its problems either. It is surprising how different one pilot's "5nm" is from another. The number of times you hear "5nm east of xxxx" and the aircraft is actually "8nm WEST of xxx" would surprise you!!
I tend to use "the northwest edge of the Mercer MBZ" and sometimes include "StateHighway2" for those with better local knowledge.
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ahhh,
once again, another Thread that starts about things gernerally around the Ardmore area and ends up bashing AFS aircraft.
I also used to instruct around the ardmore area, and yes it has its problems like anywhere, but also you have to look at a simple statistic.....students are students, they are exactly that! learning, making mistakes....isnt that why once you get to the 'big ones' you have stopped making mistakes......to a point?
Im not defending the place, and some of the things you have said are bad, but lets face it, if you have 15 AFS cessnas going up every 1 1/2 hours statistically they are going to be involved in more incidents than say EFT 2 172's??
Kiwiblue - what part of the country are you from? It seems that the whole country has issue with people from AFS, yet for some reason airlines and operators (more than 10,000lb aeroplanes) seem to think the quality of people coming out of the organisations are good?
Maybe thats why its full of young guys?
As for airmanship in the circuit at AR, i can remember many times being in a twin, single engine training and having someone turn inside me whilst on base for a glide approach, or making a short approach for the seal! not legal but i dealt with it
Mercer MBZ - always has been a problem, always will be a problem due to lateral boundry constraints and also as said Kelly field and Mercer airfield, I agree that the position reports need to be accurate and agreed if your in the circuit at Kelly field it shows poor 'big picture/airmanship' to blast through that circuit on a FLWOP, especially if you are making radio calls. I agree with 6080ft, if you have an issue, call the operator, talk to the CFI or a senior instructor, you may be suprised how understanding they are of the issue and that you can be assured it will be dealt with. When i used to instruct out of AR i know that we always used to call up other operators and have a freindly chat, and no harm done, student learns and we all move on.
If you dont want to ever have an issue while flying and you only want things to be black and white i suggest we all stop flying, and just read part 91 law.
As i said, not defending AFS just giving a different perspective
FL440
once again, another Thread that starts about things gernerally around the Ardmore area and ends up bashing AFS aircraft.
I also used to instruct around the ardmore area, and yes it has its problems like anywhere, but also you have to look at a simple statistic.....students are students, they are exactly that! learning, making mistakes....isnt that why once you get to the 'big ones' you have stopped making mistakes......to a point?
Im not defending the place, and some of the things you have said are bad, but lets face it, if you have 15 AFS cessnas going up every 1 1/2 hours statistically they are going to be involved in more incidents than say EFT 2 172's??
Kiwiblue - what part of the country are you from? It seems that the whole country has issue with people from AFS, yet for some reason airlines and operators (more than 10,000lb aeroplanes) seem to think the quality of people coming out of the organisations are good?
Maybe thats why its full of young guys?
As for airmanship in the circuit at AR, i can remember many times being in a twin, single engine training and having someone turn inside me whilst on base for a glide approach, or making a short approach for the seal! not legal but i dealt with it
Mercer MBZ - always has been a problem, always will be a problem due to lateral boundry constraints and also as said Kelly field and Mercer airfield, I agree that the position reports need to be accurate and agreed if your in the circuit at Kelly field it shows poor 'big picture/airmanship' to blast through that circuit on a FLWOP, especially if you are making radio calls. I agree with 6080ft, if you have an issue, call the operator, talk to the CFI or a senior instructor, you may be suprised how understanding they are of the issue and that you can be assured it will be dealt with. When i used to instruct out of AR i know that we always used to call up other operators and have a freindly chat, and no harm done, student learns and we all move on.
If you dont want to ever have an issue while flying and you only want things to be black and white i suggest we all stop flying, and just read part 91 law.
As i said, not defending AFS just giving a different perspective
FL440
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ah yes the old, not on freq, ballsing up proceedures etc. Crickey that happens all over the country everyday. By airline pilots too! As FL440 says - students will be students. I was at WHK last week - along came a BOP operators student joining the wrong way. realising that they were no doubt a student it didn't overly worry me. you learn from mistakes like that.
FL440 - yes good point, it is funny how many afs students have ended up at various pt 135 and pt125 operators around the country.
Slackie - good point re the controlled airspace comment.
FL440 - yes good point, it is funny how many afs students have ended up at various pt 135 and pt125 operators around the country.
Slackie - good point re the controlled airspace comment.
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Originally Posted by slackie
The main problem with most of the "product" that is turned out of AR is their lack of familiarity with controlled airspace.
Originally Posted by FL440
what part of the country are you from?
On more than one occasion I have been involved in guiding these aircraft to where they need to be after they have gotten themselves all 'geographically challenged', which I see at least in part as being because their training organisation sent them off on a mission that was patently beyond their skill-levels and/or preparedness, not to mention their language skills in some cases.
Many of them could use some training in plain, common courtesy both in the air & on the ground also.
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For many English is a 2nd language of which they have at best a vague grasp.
Unfortunately, even when procedures are published in the AIP it is CAA's point of view that if they are in uncontrolled airspace (Ardmore, Milford, etc.) then they are merely suggestions, not requirements.
Classic
Kiwiblue -
What are you like the Labour Party MP for waimak?
I was not having a dig at AFS specifically - have never been there, nor do I recall ever having had a specific issue with anyone I can positively identify as being from there -my comments were more generally directed at the AR/Massey students
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Kiwiblue - my comment as to where you were from was more to guage how much traffic you see from AR etc.
Given how far south from us you are, i would be suprised if more than 20 aeroplanes from the AR region make it south of you.
With comments like this i assume that you are not in the "heavies" as you put it? I sense you have issues with aircraft from the north, beleive me i have seen many a brave mountain pilot from the south island struggle and get lost trying to find Hamilton airport.!
Good on you for helping these people when they have got themselves into that situation, im sure that they were more than grateful and have learnt a great lesson! Thats what learning to fly is all about!!
I understand your points regarding airmanship etc but i think that you need you to have your head read if you think the only bad pilots seem to come from where you say?
Ive seen many south island pilots enter the Ardmore MBZ and Mercer MBZ areas and make a complete arse of it, no drama though! When that happens we understand that they are somewhere unfamiliar and we make adjustments accordingly, whether its a freindly speel on the radio or an extension downwind so that they can get on the ground!
Surely you cannot expect a pilot from somewhere totally unfamiliar to be absaloutely perfect the first time they fly in your region?
Kiwiblue, this is not aimed personally at you, im just trying to find out where your coming form
Given how far south from us you are, i would be suprised if more than 20 aeroplanes from the AR region make it south of you.
Perhaps the heavies are more accepting of the products of these environments because when they come out, they are very unlikely to be in command of an aircraft for quite some years and can be more readily moulded into the wee cookie-cutter clones required
Good on you for helping these people when they have got themselves into that situation, im sure that they were more than grateful and have learnt a great lesson! Thats what learning to fly is all about!!
I understand your points regarding airmanship etc but i think that you need you to have your head read if you think the only bad pilots seem to come from where you say?
Ive seen many south island pilots enter the Ardmore MBZ and Mercer MBZ areas and make a complete arse of it, no drama though! When that happens we understand that they are somewhere unfamiliar and we make adjustments accordingly, whether its a freindly speel on the radio or an extension downwind so that they can get on the ground!
Surely you cannot expect a pilot from somewhere totally unfamiliar to be absaloutely perfect the first time they fly in your region?
Kiwiblue, this is not aimed personally at you, im just trying to find out where your coming form
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FL440: likewise, I have no wish for my comments to be misinterpreted. It is not the students I blame for their shortcomings, but the organisations that train them. Whilst the training offered may be appropriate to achieve a minimum standard for entry to the majors, the emphasis on the majors as a part of that training serves the students poorly in the environments that are being thrust upon them as a part of their training. You're quite right -we don't see a lot of them, sometimes several months between appearances, but when we do, we may see as many as 3-4 "gaggles" of up to 5 machines at a time in as many weeks. Often there is not an instructor or pilot with experience in the area amongst them. The number of times that a pilot from these places has approached anyone in the area for a briefing or even a little information, you could count on the fingers of one hand. Far more likely they will simply pour through with scant regard or attention to what is going on around them, causing sometimes quite serious havoc. Personally, I wouldn't dream of coming into 'your patch' without 1st trying to get some information on procedural issues of which I am ignorant. I've only flown up that way a handful of times over the last 30 years. If I had to, I could probably get where I was going without screwing the pooch too badly -but I would certainly want that information/local knowledge if time & circumstances allowed me to pursue it -and I would do whatever I could to conform with published procedures where available and avoid cluttering common frequencies with inane chatter.
We all do whatever we can to assist whenever necessary, as we should. Lord knows there have been times I have needed sorted... for my sins! My point however (again) is that these guys are not being taught the basics of airmanship properly. Again, they are being let down by their training organisations and cut loose in command in a system for which they are ill-prepared. Mountain flying -particularly in a high-traffic density area- is a demanding exercise. You cannot have your head in the cockpit trying to sort out what it is you need to do now/next. That should have been sorted on the ground, before you launched, preferably in a properly structured briefing. If that isn't possible at the minimum a briefing from an experienced local pilot can save a lot of grief -for everyone. Need I mention the C310 at QN on RWY 14? Or the Cardinal that ran out of fuel winding up on the steps of the hospital 200m from the RWY threshold? Any one of us would offer whatever advice/assistance we can if asked, even to the extent of 'follow me, do what I do' if necessary and traffic permits. The emphasis is on 'if asked' there, because we rarely are. I am not suggesting that all bad pilots come from N of the Bombays or anything of the kind -just that many of the classic pooch-screws we see are from that area and the point of origin (sometimes down to the particular location on the tarmac!) monotonously regular.
Of course not. I do however expect courtesy, no more or less that they would expect from me in their area, and some respect for the task they are undertaking. A quick flip around the Coromandel it ain't. Yet that seems to be how many from that area treat it.
Some of the previous comments in this thread have left me virtually in a state of despair for the falling standards... "she'll be right" doesn't cut it. Students have to be properly prepared and assessed competent before they are launched on some of these extended solo missions. They also need to be advised to approach locals before entering unfamiliar areas -I don't think I've ever been knocked back when I have sought advice from someone more experienced. There's always more to learn, more places to go. There's always someone that knows more than me too -those are the people I seek out every time.
Not a bad idea when you think about it.
We all do whatever we can to assist whenever necessary, as we should. Lord knows there have been times I have needed sorted... for my sins! My point however (again) is that these guys are not being taught the basics of airmanship properly. Again, they are being let down by their training organisations and cut loose in command in a system for which they are ill-prepared. Mountain flying -particularly in a high-traffic density area- is a demanding exercise. You cannot have your head in the cockpit trying to sort out what it is you need to do now/next. That should have been sorted on the ground, before you launched, preferably in a properly structured briefing. If that isn't possible at the minimum a briefing from an experienced local pilot can save a lot of grief -for everyone. Need I mention the C310 at QN on RWY 14? Or the Cardinal that ran out of fuel winding up on the steps of the hospital 200m from the RWY threshold? Any one of us would offer whatever advice/assistance we can if asked, even to the extent of 'follow me, do what I do' if necessary and traffic permits. The emphasis is on 'if asked' there, because we rarely are. I am not suggesting that all bad pilots come from N of the Bombays or anything of the kind -just that many of the classic pooch-screws we see are from that area and the point of origin (sometimes down to the particular location on the tarmac!) monotonously regular.
Originally Posted by FL440
Surely you cannot expect a pilot from somewhere totally unfamiliar to be absaloutely perfect the first time they fly in your region?
Some of the previous comments in this thread have left me virtually in a state of despair for the falling standards... "she'll be right" doesn't cut it. Students have to be properly prepared and assessed competent before they are launched on some of these extended solo missions. They also need to be advised to approach locals before entering unfamiliar areas -I don't think I've ever been knocked back when I have sought advice from someone more experienced. There's always more to learn, more places to go. There's always someone that knows more than me too -those are the people I seek out every time.
Not a bad idea when you think about it.
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KiwiBlue..
Thats crap...no bloody amount of "local" procedural knowledge would have prevented that accident
An appreciation of the effects of a false horizon and high density altitudes would have done much much more.....
I have to say I agree wholeheartedly however with the decline in training standards, but its been a problem since the mid 80's and so far no one has come up with a better system.
As far as general airmanship at AR, well its no better or worse than anywhere else.
Need I mention the C310 at QN on RWY 14?
An appreciation of the effects of a false horizon and high density altitudes would have done much much more.....
I have to say I agree wholeheartedly however with the decline in training standards, but its been a problem since the mid 80's and so far no one has come up with a better system.
As far as general airmanship at AR, well its no better or worse than anywhere else.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
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haughtney1: I don't recall what the specific Density Altitude was that day, but I don't reckon it can have been too bad -the rest of us were on/off 14 all day in aircraft at/near gross... but no, that wasn't my point either. Every one of us that has operated 14 with any sort of regularity have given itinerants likely to be operating off 14 warning of the false horizon in the turn and the proximity to terrain -which does come back to my point: lack of training and preparedness is at the root of many of these crashes and incidents... which IMO comes back again to airmanship. As far as I'm concerned, local procedural knowledge includes information of this nature that is immediately pertinent to the intended operation.
As you are no doubt aware there were other factors that militated against this particular pilot which we don't need to be getting into here.
As you are no doubt aware there were other factors that militated against this particular pilot which we don't need to be getting into here.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
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Well, I've never been to AR - yet.
I have 600 hours GA - I know, I know, not a lot compared to you big boys - but more than your average PPL student - and I have no doubt whatsoever that when I do go in there, I will cock something up!
(*I will however keep an eye out for the Big Green Shed...)
I have 600 hours GA - I know, I know, not a lot compared to you big boys - but more than your average PPL student - and I have no doubt whatsoever that when I do go in there, I will cock something up!
(*I will however keep an eye out for the Big Green Shed...)