straight in approaches
Just tell him to power up and go around Werbil, 
When you live....
Why do I have it in my head that either the AIP or the CASA promotional bullsh*t talks about aircraft making straight in approaches must be established on final by 5nm and give way to a/c established on BASE?
Have I lost my marbles or is this written somewhere? The implication being that having called a 5 mile final, anyone on downwind is expected to give way?
Will go home tonight and see if I can find it.....
UTR.
Have I lost my marbles or is this written somewhere? The implication being that having called a 5 mile final, anyone on downwind is expected to give way?
Will go home tonight and see if I can find it.....
UTR.
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Yep, aircraft on straight-in must give way to base / downwind traffic. Seems silly that you can be on a 1.5 mile final and have to give way because the nut-bag on base turned in front of you.
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Okay, deep breath! It has been a while since I needed to look at circuit rules.
There is a conflict inherent in the AIP. Yes it does state in effect that outside five miles on the straight in; base traffic for the same runway is number one for landing. (not downwind traffic)
Also, in effect it states that aircraft conducting a straight in do not have priority over established circuit traffic.
To me this has meant that if four, five or even one aircraft are conducting a traditional type circuit onto Rwy 18, it is not on to commence a straight in approach to Rwy 36 regardless of whether the circuit aircraft are upwind, downwind, base or final. YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.
How about this. A Tiger Moth with one Com and no navaids joins upwind to get a good look at the sock on a two and a half thousand metre runway. Seven kts headwind on 18, so he broadcasts joining overhead for 18. Meanwhile our hero at fifteen miles in his fast boat (with auto-met) stands on principle and announces intention to conduct 'five mile final' onto 36.
If there was a prize for subsequent airmanship in the above example, who would you put your money on?
There is a conflict inherent in the AIP. Yes it does state in effect that outside five miles on the straight in; base traffic for the same runway is number one for landing. (not downwind traffic)
Also, in effect it states that aircraft conducting a straight in do not have priority over established circuit traffic.
To me this has meant that if four, five or even one aircraft are conducting a traditional type circuit onto Rwy 18, it is not on to commence a straight in approach to Rwy 36 regardless of whether the circuit aircraft are upwind, downwind, base or final. YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.
How about this. A Tiger Moth with one Com and no navaids joins upwind to get a good look at the sock on a two and a half thousand metre runway. Seven kts headwind on 18, so he broadcasts joining overhead for 18. Meanwhile our hero at fifteen miles in his fast boat (with auto-met) stands on principle and announces intention to conduct 'five mile final' onto 36.
If there was a prize for subsequent airmanship in the above example, who would you put your money on?
Last edited by Spotlight; 2nd Jul 2007 at 10:57.
When you live....
Spotlight
Thanks - and I think you've clarified what I was trying to say - but I having read the AIP I was barking up the wrong tree anyway.
The conflicting statement that straight in approaches must give way to circuit traffic is, I think, designed to prevent a conflicting straight in on the opposite runway - i.e a straight in must give way to all other traffic so theoretically could go in if the only circuit traffic had just turned crosswind but in practice can't really. ENR-64.6 prohibits the scenario you proposed pretty comprehensively.
Having re-read AIP ENR64.6.4 however, there is no point at which you get automatic priorty on a straight-in and at all times you must not get in the way of aircraft on base or final.
QNH1013 - it seems that you're correct - and relying on the airmanship of others makes me nervous!
UTR.
The conflicting statement that straight in approaches must give way to circuit traffic is, I think, designed to prevent a conflicting straight in on the opposite runway - i.e a straight in must give way to all other traffic so theoretically could go in if the only circuit traffic had just turned crosswind but in practice can't really. ENR-64.6 prohibits the scenario you proposed pretty comprehensively.
Having re-read AIP ENR64.6.4 however, there is no point at which you get automatic priorty on a straight-in and at all times you must not get in the way of aircraft on base or final.
QNH1013 - it seems that you're correct - and relying on the airmanship of others makes me nervous!
UTR.
Fortaildriver whatever your name is.. I think you need to re-read my post. I do straigh in approaches on a day to day basis as normal ops. Hell they dont want me to circle whenever it can be avoided.
Like I said obviously you have never tired to do a straight in approach with a circuit full of half fluent learning chinese students..... trust me you are dicing with death.
Like I said obviously you have never tired to do a straight in approach with a circuit full of half fluent learning chinese students..... trust me you are dicing with death.
Bula
"you have never tired to do a straight in approach with a circuit full of half fluent learning chinese students..... "
No, can't say I have .... but I have shared the airspace with some ethnic Lear drivers!
"trust me you are dicing with death"
You are probably right!
Dr
"you have never tired to do a straight in approach with a circuit full of half fluent learning chinese students..... "
No, can't say I have .... but I have shared the airspace with some ethnic Lear drivers!
"trust me you are dicing with death"
You are probably right!
Dr
I'm in one of those moods
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1. The bloke who said ‘don’t’ .. had want to consider the consequences of effectively issuing an ‘instruction’ …. Had the subsequent circuit (additional 3-5min in the terminal area) collected the light blue See-bee on downwind (hypothetically) ….. mate, if the lawyers could corroborate who said ‘don’t’ ….. that is a worlda hurt for the rest of his days!
2. FTDK, werbil, absolutely correct … subject to ‘use of some degree of cranial matter’ and assessment of traffic early …It is also incumbent on existing circuit aircraft to consider fitting the turn onto base once the straight in is in sight or gives you a distance to run when you are ready for base …. I mean ferked if I want to be putting along at 70kts craning around trying to see the big faster bugga trying to mow me down from behind on Dwind, Base or Final, particularly if I am below in front!
3. I’ll bet my left nut, many of these sorts of events are due to frequency management (more than one ), unheard or no broadcasts, and time in flight between ATS and CTAF (time available to acquire SA)
4. As coral said, at busy aerodromes (including firkin CTAF Airshows .. ferchristsake), a straight-in ‘could’ be lethal. Targets approaching from left AND right base despite the rules .. most of whom will be looking into the turn onto final, not out board along the extended final leg … equally, flying dodgems around 4 legs with god knows how many targets to hit! … if it is that busy why would you not invest in 3-6mins and stay out the way (or above) until yer have the picture or it quietens down … cheap insurance! Seen smart folks (mostly IFR fast singles and twins) do it many times during airshow arrivals bursts!
.
hmmm ….. depends on the cloud base too I suppose …..
eeeeeeeew .. that brings back some bad memories!
2. FTDK, werbil, absolutely correct … subject to ‘use of some degree of cranial matter’ and assessment of traffic early …It is also incumbent on existing circuit aircraft to consider fitting the turn onto base once the straight in is in sight or gives you a distance to run when you are ready for base …. I mean ferked if I want to be putting along at 70kts craning around trying to see the big faster bugga trying to mow me down from behind on Dwind, Base or Final, particularly if I am below in front!
3. I’ll bet my left nut, many of these sorts of events are due to frequency management (more than one ), unheard or no broadcasts, and time in flight between ATS and CTAF (time available to acquire SA)
4. As coral said, at busy aerodromes (including firkin CTAF Airshows .. ferchristsake), a straight-in ‘could’ be lethal. Targets approaching from left AND right base despite the rules .. most of whom will be looking into the turn onto final, not out board along the extended final leg … equally, flying dodgems around 4 legs with god knows how many targets to hit! … if it is that busy why would you not invest in 3-6mins and stay out the way (or above) until yer have the picture or it quietens down … cheap insurance! Seen smart folks (mostly IFR fast singles and twins) do it many times during airshow arrivals bursts!
.
hmmm ….. depends on the cloud base too I suppose …..
eeeeeeeew .. that brings back some bad memories!
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no one seems to understand I HAVE THE BIGEST D%$k.
Now that thats clear, I have two points. Pilot conducting straight in,during the quoting/route plannng process for said flight would have worked out the price based on conducting a standard circuit, so doing a straight in would be a big plus to the boss, however joining a standard circuit would no send them broke. True I do have the bigest D%$K. Now that said,172 doing circuits for training or charter guy on a mission, dont you guys want the hours anyway? so extending downwind would be a plus for you, why not take it, anything for the extra 0.1 hrs
Now that thats clear, I have two points. Pilot conducting straight in,during the quoting/route plannng process for said flight would have worked out the price based on conducting a standard circuit, so doing a straight in would be a big plus to the boss, however joining a standard circuit would no send them broke. True I do have the bigest D%$K. Now that said,172 doing circuits for training or charter guy on a mission, dont you guys want the hours anyway? so extending downwind would be a plus for you, why not take it, anything for the extra 0.1 hrs
Thread Starter
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"however joining a standard circuit would no send them broke. "
true but it will add up over 12 months. Besides its about getting the pax on the ground quickly. Other operators might be different but thats out policy.
I dont know about you but if im flying from Birdsville to Warnervale by the time i am starting to get close to Warnervale i would want to get on the ground as quick as i can.
(id need a smoke bad)
Bizz
true but it will add up over 12 months. Besides its about getting the pax on the ground quickly. Other operators might be different but thats out policy.
I dont know about you but if im flying from Birdsville to Warnervale by the time i am starting to get close to Warnervale i would want to get on the ground as quick as i can.
(id need a smoke bad)
Bizz
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Or another way of thinking is, not that it adds up over 12 months but, each straight in might save you money but at what cost to all arond you. not having a go at anyone, I can see both sides. but if you cant afford to join a standard circuit sould you be in operation. sure it adds up, no question about that.
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On The Hillside, Your lying about one thing, It is me who has the biggest #$%^. But you are spot on, who for the sake of 0.1 if that would play with traffic in the pattern. Do a friggin circuit thats what it is designed for, to facilitate traffic flow. No traffic, too good, do a straight in. Heaps of traffic go with the flow and add those hours to the log book.
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UTR,
I believe when we use to have MBZ's only aircraft on BASE OR FINAL had right of way over an aircraft on five mile final. When MBZ's were abolished the rules were changed so that any aircraft in the CIRCUIT had right of way over an aircraft on five mile final.
I believe when we use to have MBZ's only aircraft on BASE OR FINAL had right of way over an aircraft on five mile final. When MBZ's were abolished the rules were changed so that any aircraft in the CIRCUIT had right of way over an aircraft on five mile final.
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i think we all need to use our brains on this matter, i commonly conduct straight in approaches to aerodromes and a few things i consider.
1. If its +/- 30 degrees from heading to runway alignment
2. i never straight in to unfamiliar aerodrome, generally i would like to see the layout once before i come barreling in.
3. make it clear to all others what i am doing, ie "maneuvering to intercept a 5 mile final"
4. an remember there is no harm in using plain english to explain your position, ie if another a/c in on base or late downwind say that you will join behind them number 2 or do you mind if i go number 1. This generally removes all confusion about who has right of way and what the other guy is doing, sort it out before your wings touch
things that pi$$ me off are Jabiru's with no radio conducting straight in approaches (and you know who you are)
DS
1. If its +/- 30 degrees from heading to runway alignment
2. i never straight in to unfamiliar aerodrome, generally i would like to see the layout once before i come barreling in.
3. make it clear to all others what i am doing, ie "maneuvering to intercept a 5 mile final"
4. an remember there is no harm in using plain english to explain your position, ie if another a/c in on base or late downwind say that you will join behind them number 2 or do you mind if i go number 1. This generally removes all confusion about who has right of way and what the other guy is doing, sort it out before your wings touch
things that pi$$ me off are Jabiru's with no radio conducting straight in approaches (and you know who you are)
DS
