What is the Federation
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WIZ Early 1980s "Closed Shop" arrangements were historically common in Australia, despite it apparently being beyond the capacity of the federal tribunal to include compulsory membership provisions in Awards. In the late 1980s employers were more than happy to agree to closed shops, seeing them as a means of reducing the likelihood of tensions between unionised and non-unionised employees and as simplifying the bargaining process. The 1996 Workplace Relations Act made it unlawful to discriminate against employees (including in relation to hiring) on the ground that they do not belong to a union - which brought us into line with ILO Conventions. [Creighton, Labour Law] Lawrie's comments are entirely credible, to the question asked. You'll never see the 'prepared to join union' tick box on an application form ever again. AMOS there was just that other little matter of the employers and the federal government's contribution into the history books.
Personalities aside, fact remains we aren't experts on the new IR regulations. We don't know what's in bounds and what's out; there are now minefields of fines that can stick if you don't know what you're doing in disputes or when bargaining. Only 2 sure things - death and taxes - let's get a decent gross income on which to pay tax and some reasonable conditions so that we can enjoy life; not what is around in other pockets of the industry, exactly what suits us. Splintering in different directions just highlights to the company that we can't come up with a joint position. Time to get over it, get smarter and get it together. Of course labour supply power today can be of benefit individually, but a 'closed shop' strategy nets longer term power to get what we want now and also when the labour supply pendulum swings back.
Personalities aside, fact remains we aren't experts on the new IR regulations. We don't know what's in bounds and what's out; there are now minefields of fines that can stick if you don't know what you're doing in disputes or when bargaining. Only 2 sure things - death and taxes - let's get a decent gross income on which to pay tax and some reasonable conditions so that we can enjoy life; not what is around in other pockets of the industry, exactly what suits us. Splintering in different directions just highlights to the company that we can't come up with a joint position. Time to get over it, get smarter and get it together. Of course labour supply power today can be of benefit individually, but a 'closed shop' strategy nets longer term power to get what we want now and also when the labour supply pendulum swings back.
Last edited by Ol Shep; 21st May 2007 at 20:14.
Hey Lawrie,
Let me firstly say that I applaud you for putting your name to this. I agree wholeheartedly with Bimmer1615's post. I have only been in the game a short while but have been a Feds member since the day i was a fresh faced CPL. I didn't know any better at the time, but someone older, wiser and much less trusting than I signed me up for membership and I believe it is the best money I have spent since.
To any younger guys reading this, it is something you should seriously consider, I mean you're on the AFAP website looking at the jobs, why not have a proper look at the website and what they have to offer.
And Finally, let me also applaud you on keeping a level head amidst somewhat personal and derisive attacks
Cheers
j3
Let me firstly say that I applaud you for putting your name to this. I agree wholeheartedly with Bimmer1615's post. I have only been in the game a short while but have been a Feds member since the day i was a fresh faced CPL. I didn't know any better at the time, but someone older, wiser and much less trusting than I signed me up for membership and I believe it is the best money I have spent since.
To any younger guys reading this, it is something you should seriously consider, I mean you're on the AFAP website looking at the jobs, why not have a proper look at the website and what they have to offer.
And Finally, let me also applaud you on keeping a level head amidst somewhat personal and derisive attacks
Cheers
j3
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Poor amos2, still looking for someone else to blame for his/her own decisions.
The employees of the AFAP did as they were required to do in that time. Obey the instructions of their employer.
If anyone (other than the Government and Management) is to blame for the outcome it is the pilots/members at that time.
We all made decisions and did what we thought best, some went back to work, some didn't. It is totally wrong to blame the staff of the AFAP.
Same applies today. Crap conditions, crap management etc, it is still the pilots who decide when enough is enough. That time hasn't come yet. It may in the future. Thye current situation will not be changed until pilots get together again and demand that change. Don't go blaming people who are not responsible for the mess.
The employees of the AFAP did as they were required to do in that time. Obey the instructions of their employer.
If anyone (other than the Government and Management) is to blame for the outcome it is the pilots/members at that time.
We all made decisions and did what we thought best, some went back to work, some didn't. It is totally wrong to blame the staff of the AFAP.
Same applies today. Crap conditions, crap management etc, it is still the pilots who decide when enough is enough. That time hasn't come yet. It may in the future. Thye current situation will not be changed until pilots get together again and demand that change. Don't go blaming people who are not responsible for the mess.
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A union is it's membership and the members are the union.
There are democratic processes to remove the elected representatives if they fail to act in the interests of and at the direction of the majority of members.
There are democratic processes to remove the elected representatives if they fail to act in the interests of and at the direction of the majority of members.
Last edited by Air Ace; 27th May 2007 at 05:46.
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To those that have enterd the debate thanks. The intent was purely to spell out wht the organisation is. I note the negative comments from those with an axe to grind can I ask you whether this helps trying to ensure that ALL PROFESSIONAL PILOTS are covered?
To be specific does slagging at me change the direction needed to have all pilots in one body?
I have never denied history or my involvement in the events of the past. There were no winners out of it.
The Federation survived because of a need to ensure that pilots have some coverage in a pilot body in the future as your predecessors left you after some heavy battles.
Ultimately it will be the pilots that determine the future not me. What I encourage is those who want to be destructive and devisive is work within the current structures rather than destroy your predecessors good work from when the body was initially formed in 1938 till now.
Lawrie Cox
To be specific does slagging at me change the direction needed to have all pilots in one body?
I have never denied history or my involvement in the events of the past. There were no winners out of it.
The Federation survived because of a need to ensure that pilots have some coverage in a pilot body in the future as your predecessors left you after some heavy battles.
Ultimately it will be the pilots that determine the future not me. What I encourage is those who want to be destructive and devisive is work within the current structures rather than destroy your predecessors good work from when the body was initially formed in 1938 till now.
Lawrie Cox
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Hello Lawrie,
I have a few questions, i think it fair to assume that your intentions are good, i also think it fair to assume the reason for this topic is to try to drum up members, which is a good thing.
Personally i am a critic of unions, why, from a previous life i had to deal with the "Storeman and Packers Union" then the "TWU", from those experiences i did not like the bullying and god like status that was bestoyed upon the union reps in each workplace, but all that said, there were very very frequently very positive outcomes for the associated work force.
I am not a member, but would become a member if there was some positive commitment made by your goodselves, look through my posting history and you'll see my personal concerns.
In the past i used the term " WIFM", whats in it for me, well some believe this is against the concept of a union, the actual question is what in it for us ? ( the pilots from GA to skygods ).
It is pretty much common knowledge that the "Awards" as listed on your website are relevant in only a few states:
Q 1) why are there still pilots within those states being paid less than these rates ?,
Q 2) Why are there still states that these awards do not apply ?,
Q 3) Are the awards appropriate, for example the copilot salary for a Brasilia, how does this compare to the Australian IR minimum wage, is this a fair bench mark ?,
Q 4) What is you organisations stance on AWA's, specifically, is this the end for these awards you have published ?,
Q 5) Black lists, Protests and walking off the job are not techniques that can or should be used ( 89 ), every employee should have some level of commitment to their organisation that is based apon the fact that the company must meet its work commitments to continue paying its bills, How would you approach this sort of negotiation when there is a sticking point with T & C's ?,
Q 6) Legal representation - when do you guys draw the line, when do you no longer offer required services to financial members ?.
Thanks for your time Lawrie,
I have a few questions, i think it fair to assume that your intentions are good, i also think it fair to assume the reason for this topic is to try to drum up members, which is a good thing.
Personally i am a critic of unions, why, from a previous life i had to deal with the "Storeman and Packers Union" then the "TWU", from those experiences i did not like the bullying and god like status that was bestoyed upon the union reps in each workplace, but all that said, there were very very frequently very positive outcomes for the associated work force.
I am not a member, but would become a member if there was some positive commitment made by your goodselves, look through my posting history and you'll see my personal concerns.
In the past i used the term " WIFM", whats in it for me, well some believe this is against the concept of a union, the actual question is what in it for us ? ( the pilots from GA to skygods ).
It is pretty much common knowledge that the "Awards" as listed on your website are relevant in only a few states:
Q 1) why are there still pilots within those states being paid less than these rates ?,
Q 2) Why are there still states that these awards do not apply ?,
Q 3) Are the awards appropriate, for example the copilot salary for a Brasilia, how does this compare to the Australian IR minimum wage, is this a fair bench mark ?,
Q 4) What is you organisations stance on AWA's, specifically, is this the end for these awards you have published ?,
Q 5) Black lists, Protests and walking off the job are not techniques that can or should be used ( 89 ), every employee should have some level of commitment to their organisation that is based apon the fact that the company must meet its work commitments to continue paying its bills, How would you approach this sort of negotiation when there is a sticking point with T & C's ?,
Q 6) Legal representation - when do you guys draw the line, when do you no longer offer required services to financial members ?.
Thanks for your time Lawrie,
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here here LHRT
exactly what I was thinking, I'm newish to the industry and although I as well dislike unions (formally TWU member by force) this industry needs a union that is backed by the majority working within it. I am more than keen to jump into such a union, but I have yet to see how the AFAP has helped new guys like me apart from your job ads. I think a good initiative for you would be to challenge CASA and ASIC fees which would benefit the whole aviation industry which would inturn get every pilot on your side, and would it also be possible to get recreational pilots on board to boost number for a louder voice.
just a thought
Fhead
exactly what I was thinking, I'm newish to the industry and although I as well dislike unions (formally TWU member by force) this industry needs a union that is backed by the majority working within it. I am more than keen to jump into such a union, but I have yet to see how the AFAP has helped new guys like me apart from your job ads. I think a good initiative for you would be to challenge CASA and ASIC fees which would benefit the whole aviation industry which would inturn get every pilot on your side, and would it also be possible to get recreational pilots on board to boost number for a louder voice.
just a thought
Fhead
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Hi Fhead ( have you been told today ? ),
I understand what you are saying but i feel there are bigger fish to fry than ASIC cards and CASA fee's.
T & C's within our industry are probably at the top, with house prices the way they are how are Pilots supposed too pay off a house and feed a family.
How do we get these dodgy operators out of GA ? ( there are some fantastic organisations within GA but they have trouble competing with these cut-throat rule bending aviation enthuasists that start aviation companies ).
Comparing pilots wages to the mining industry is a really poor suggestion, but comparision to an office worker, perhaps, there is some interesting inconsistencies to be seen.
If not for the AFAP's jobs page, i would have never heard of them.
Loss of licence insurance and free legal representation for a meager 1%, that sells itself, why then are we here in this topic ?.
I understand what you are saying but i feel there are bigger fish to fry than ASIC cards and CASA fee's.
T & C's within our industry are probably at the top, with house prices the way they are how are Pilots supposed too pay off a house and feed a family.
How do we get these dodgy operators out of GA ? ( there are some fantastic organisations within GA but they have trouble competing with these cut-throat rule bending aviation enthuasists that start aviation companies ).
Comparing pilots wages to the mining industry is a really poor suggestion, but comparision to an office worker, perhaps, there is some interesting inconsistencies to be seen.
If not for the AFAP's jobs page, i would have never heard of them.
Loss of licence insurance and free legal representation for a meager 1%, that sells itself, why then are we here in this topic ?.
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LRT
Yes guilty as charged regarding members. But the main point at the outset was to correct the often misleading info published about the Federation.
The WIFM was in fact the name of information packs we used to send out to prospective members,
To answer your questions the current legislation has changed the direction of the Award system and one of he reasons that little appears to be happening on it is that only some clauses are now enforceable which changes each time the Federal Government gets concerned about the next election.
There has been a review by the Award Review Taskforce chaired by a Senior Deputy President of the Industrial Relations Commission. This in turn has now been referred to the Fair Pay Commission. In the end the current policy is to remove industry Awards totally. As it is an unknown it is difficult for us to update the respondents list.
1. If the pilot accepts less than an award rate then it makes it difficult. In terms of the company they in most states need to be a respondent named or a successor to a named party. The recent legislation was to remove the succession clause effect.
2. The respondents list is updated when possible and as needed (bearing in mind the review). We have common rule available in Victoria because they ceded their powers to the Commonwealth. In other States there are still State General awards we will be reviewing once the legislation outcome is known and that probably will not occur until the Federal election is out of the way.
3. The Award rates have fallen behind on basis that you cannot vary for general increases without a full wage case which in effect was removed under work choices. The current wage system is based upon enterprise negotiations only and the current award rates are frozen in time as minimums and as such fall behind what the Fair Pay Case decision has determined as the Federal minimum rate. The short answer is that the current Awards do not reflect a fair outcome in my view but the legislation equally makes it near impossible to amend Catch-22 comes to mind.
4. The Federation is opposed to AWA’s for pilots but having said that we have worked with members where they apply. It is hardly choice if the employer refuses to give choice of a collective agreement as against an AWA on the same terms. Our experience is that AWA’s provide less overall and place the individual under pressure and are mainly used to ensure that the group does not unite. Our preference is a collective agreement negotiated and applicable to all pilots of that employee which is completely transparent.
5. Industrial action is always a last resort and will only occur when supported by the pilots involved. Can I say in 89 that pilots voted at meetings 95% to take action it was not something dreamt up and enacted by one or two people. Legislation has now changed which deals with these issues and some would not be able to occur in any case. Regards blacklists and the like the Act deals with it now specifically could I also make the point that yes there was a campaign against those who returned and commitments given to the AIRC in March 90 by the Federation but the company at the request of those individuals refused to employ Federation members. I will point out that I will not be responding further on this in any future postings as it dredges emotions on both sides and I am only responding in terms of the historical record.
6. Legal representation is always based upon advice of all involved. The initial situation is through the staff often we will get a legal opinion about the potential of success or otherwise. Ultimately the finance committee makes the decision as to how far we go this will always involve consultation and explanation to the member. The member has rights of appeal to the executive committee and the convention under our rules. This can be difficult for some people to accept due to emotional involvement in the outcome but has worked successfully for the body since its inception; I can point to cases that have been won against the odds and others that we thought a certainty lost comprehensively.
FHead
The Federation provides assistance and support beyond the industrial issues in areas such as incident/accident. We also work hard campaigning against costs imposed such as you refer these are done through the forums which has seen a little movement but not the outcome sought. We are working on issues such Drug an alcohol; FMS; the MPL proposal amongst others. we also attempt to work with other bodies in the industry in the past we did so with AOPA until their agenda was highjacked by personal interests. we would like to do so again in the future. As a body we are designed for pilots flying for pay and rewards.
Lawrie Cox
Yes guilty as charged regarding members. But the main point at the outset was to correct the often misleading info published about the Federation.
The WIFM was in fact the name of information packs we used to send out to prospective members,
To answer your questions the current legislation has changed the direction of the Award system and one of he reasons that little appears to be happening on it is that only some clauses are now enforceable which changes each time the Federal Government gets concerned about the next election.
There has been a review by the Award Review Taskforce chaired by a Senior Deputy President of the Industrial Relations Commission. This in turn has now been referred to the Fair Pay Commission. In the end the current policy is to remove industry Awards totally. As it is an unknown it is difficult for us to update the respondents list.
1. If the pilot accepts less than an award rate then it makes it difficult. In terms of the company they in most states need to be a respondent named or a successor to a named party. The recent legislation was to remove the succession clause effect.
2. The respondents list is updated when possible and as needed (bearing in mind the review). We have common rule available in Victoria because they ceded their powers to the Commonwealth. In other States there are still State General awards we will be reviewing once the legislation outcome is known and that probably will not occur until the Federal election is out of the way.
3. The Award rates have fallen behind on basis that you cannot vary for general increases without a full wage case which in effect was removed under work choices. The current wage system is based upon enterprise negotiations only and the current award rates are frozen in time as minimums and as such fall behind what the Fair Pay Case decision has determined as the Federal minimum rate. The short answer is that the current Awards do not reflect a fair outcome in my view but the legislation equally makes it near impossible to amend Catch-22 comes to mind.
4. The Federation is opposed to AWA’s for pilots but having said that we have worked with members where they apply. It is hardly choice if the employer refuses to give choice of a collective agreement as against an AWA on the same terms. Our experience is that AWA’s provide less overall and place the individual under pressure and are mainly used to ensure that the group does not unite. Our preference is a collective agreement negotiated and applicable to all pilots of that employee which is completely transparent.
5. Industrial action is always a last resort and will only occur when supported by the pilots involved. Can I say in 89 that pilots voted at meetings 95% to take action it was not something dreamt up and enacted by one or two people. Legislation has now changed which deals with these issues and some would not be able to occur in any case. Regards blacklists and the like the Act deals with it now specifically could I also make the point that yes there was a campaign against those who returned and commitments given to the AIRC in March 90 by the Federation but the company at the request of those individuals refused to employ Federation members. I will point out that I will not be responding further on this in any future postings as it dredges emotions on both sides and I am only responding in terms of the historical record.
6. Legal representation is always based upon advice of all involved. The initial situation is through the staff often we will get a legal opinion about the potential of success or otherwise. Ultimately the finance committee makes the decision as to how far we go this will always involve consultation and explanation to the member. The member has rights of appeal to the executive committee and the convention under our rules. This can be difficult for some people to accept due to emotional involvement in the outcome but has worked successfully for the body since its inception; I can point to cases that have been won against the odds and others that we thought a certainty lost comprehensively.
FHead
The Federation provides assistance and support beyond the industrial issues in areas such as incident/accident. We also work hard campaigning against costs imposed such as you refer these are done through the forums which has seen a little movement but not the outcome sought. We are working on issues such Drug an alcohol; FMS; the MPL proposal amongst others. we also attempt to work with other bodies in the industry in the past we did so with AOPA until their agenda was highjacked by personal interests. we would like to do so again in the future. As a body we are designed for pilots flying for pay and rewards.
Lawrie Cox
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I am not a member, but would become a member if there was some positive commitment made by your goodselves
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LHRT. (I don't think so?)
again agree, T&C are more important and should be the main concern for any union. The problem is I don't see AFAP as having the resources or man power (if it came to action) to do much in the way of T&C at the moment, so little victories that get them publicity and the approval of the majority would build numbers. Am I wrong in saying that? Start small work your way up to the bigger issues. This forum is a good idea and maybe should be updated regularly with federations issues and the responses to the issues such as "Drug an alcohol; FMS; the MPL proposal amongst others"
Lawrie, you got my vote I'll sign up, however I don't see that many of your "issues" will help me in the short term but have the ability to make the industry more pilot friendly in the long run.
again agree, T&C are more important and should be the main concern for any union. The problem is I don't see AFAP as having the resources or man power (if it came to action) to do much in the way of T&C at the moment, so little victories that get them publicity and the approval of the majority would build numbers. Am I wrong in saying that? Start small work your way up to the bigger issues. This forum is a good idea and maybe should be updated regularly with federations issues and the responses to the issues such as "Drug an alcohol; FMS; the MPL proposal amongst others"
Lawrie, you got my vote I'll sign up, however I don't see that many of your "issues" will help me in the short term but have the ability to make the industry more pilot friendly in the long run.
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Don't just think about the airlines
Some ten years ago I saw a number of flight instructors all join the AFAP with happy smiles because they thought that they finally had a voice with wage negotiations with a GA operator. They were being under paid reference the award.
What did the AFAP do to help them….NOTHING.
You’re too small a group to justify the expense. 
This is where pilots being shafted starts and so they then believe they have to do anything to get out of that part of the industry. Hence they now accepted the T&C the larger operators offer simply because it’s better than where they were. This is all in the hope that some day it will all get better. But now we see operators still trying to undervalue pilots with Endorsement requirements and low pay.
For me now it’s about getting enough pay to simply pay the bills, feed the family and not some day driving around a F40. Work on getting salaries that reflect the cost of living and the effort guys and girls do to keep there skills to a professional level.
The constant, “its best you’re going to get” line I hear from many mates that work at all levels of this industry about the AFAP is a sad reflection of your ability to represent pilot in this country.
Help the little guys out early in the piece and you wouldn’t be battling for members now.
After the response I saw ten years ago, there was no way I was going to join. I could add more on the level of interaction with company managements but you’re liable to take legal action.
If you had looked after the guys back then, many would still be members today. The (current or upcoming) pilot shortage will see many GA guys that could have been members now join larger operators with other unions supporting them.
You’ve made this bed you’re in a long time ago by being short sighted.
Good luck with your PR/membership drive.
NH
What did the AFAP do to help them….NOTHING.
You’re too small a group to justify the expense. This is where pilots being shafted starts and so they then believe they have to do anything to get out of that part of the industry. Hence they now accepted the T&C the larger operators offer simply because it’s better than where they were. This is all in the hope that some day it will all get better. But now we see operators still trying to undervalue pilots with Endorsement requirements and low pay.
For me now it’s about getting enough pay to simply pay the bills, feed the family and not some day driving around a F40. Work on getting salaries that reflect the cost of living and the effort guys and girls do to keep there skills to a professional level.
The constant, “its best you’re going to get” line I hear from many mates that work at all levels of this industry about the AFAP is a sad reflection of your ability to represent pilot in this country.
Help the little guys out early in the piece and you wouldn’t be battling for members now.
After the response I saw ten years ago, there was no way I was going to join. I could add more on the level of interaction with company managements but you’re liable to take legal action.
If you had looked after the guys back then, many would still be members today. The (current or upcoming) pilot shortage will see many GA guys that could have been members now join larger operators with other unions supporting them.
You’ve made this bed you’re in a long time ago by being short sighted.
Good luck with your PR/membership drive.
NH
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Interesting that no one has commented on my Post # 25 above? 
I have never been a member of any union and have no interest in union membership. However, I can't see why the members appear to be so critical of the union's actions or inaction yet fail to take action or become involved...?
Is it that they "talk the talk but can't walk the walk"?
I have never been a member of any union and have no interest in union membership. However, I can't see why the members appear to be so critical of the union's actions or inaction yet fail to take action or become involved...?
Is it that they "talk the talk but can't walk the walk"?
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An AIRC commissioner in the mid-ninties once commented that a new pilot group doing the same thing has as much relevance as the "Bunbury Basket Weavers Association".
That's the last thing we want.
What we do have though is a new organisation forming directly as a result of your inaction and ineptitude in representing your members.
The evidence of your close association with VB management is well documented in the public arena and revealed where your true allegiance lies.
No, we are talking about a new pilot group doing something very different to the AFAP indeed, and that is Representing the Pilots!
Splintering in different directions just highlights to the company that we can't come up with a joint position.
You will never receive another cent from me again!
I can get a diary for two bucks at the local newsagent thanks.
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VBD
I will stick to my position and I am sure you will to yours. You are trying to yet again reinvent the wheel. Again pilots fragmenting is a great victory akin to suicide.
Nightrawk
Do not know the specific case you refer to so cannot comment with any authority. As a organisation resources are still finite and what you may have described could be partially right but I would say that we would have provided advice and assitance on courses of action. At least we do get involved in General Aviation and other areas how many others do?
If you think this a recruitment drive you are wrong. Our staff are flat out keeping up with current demand and our membership has grown in recent years despite the critics and doomsayers.
Bottom line is that keep dividing and you will continue to be defeated. Answer is in your own hands. Mind you with such great attitudes I feel that the pilot community could really do without you. But it takes all types to make an active and diverse body which can always do with healthy debate.
Lawrie Cox
I will stick to my position and I am sure you will to yours. You are trying to yet again reinvent the wheel. Again pilots fragmenting is a great victory akin to suicide.
Nightrawk
Do not know the specific case you refer to so cannot comment with any authority. As a organisation resources are still finite and what you may have described could be partially right but I would say that we would have provided advice and assitance on courses of action. At least we do get involved in General Aviation and other areas how many others do?
If you think this a recruitment drive you are wrong. Our staff are flat out keeping up with current demand and our membership has grown in recent years despite the critics and doomsayers.
Bottom line is that keep dividing and you will continue to be defeated. Answer is in your own hands. Mind you with such great attitudes I feel that the pilot community could really do without you. But it takes all types to make an active and diverse body which can always do with healthy debate.
Lawrie Cox
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Ok, so you’re involved with GA. Good for you !!!
GA needs to be represented, as it all starts at the grass roots and then follows on to airlines. So all I’m saying is help stop young guys and gals being mistreated when they enter the industry.
“What you may have described could be partially right”
But you still didn’t help them at all. I never heard of any advice or assistance.
So you would have to admit that if you had helped out more guys early on in their careers, that you wouldn’t have so many “critics and doomsayers”? Only helping when their in the airlines is short sighted (IMHO).
“Mind you with such great attitudes I feel that the pilot community could really do without you.”
Play the ball Lawrie not the man!!! T&C etc...Such comments do not help your case to unite all pilots.
GA needs to be represented, as it all starts at the grass roots and then follows on to airlines. So all I’m saying is help stop young guys and gals being mistreated when they enter the industry.
“What you may have described could be partially right”
But you still didn’t help them at all. I never heard of any advice or assistance.
So you would have to admit that if you had helped out more guys early on in their careers, that you wouldn’t have so many “critics and doomsayers”? Only helping when their in the airlines is short sighted (IMHO).
“Mind you with such great attitudes I feel that the pilot community could really do without you.”
Play the ball Lawrie not the man!!! T&C etc...Such comments do not help your case to unite all pilots.
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With respect it is a two way street. I am not attacking you personally just the attitude expressed but you may have noted that I am not frightened to have a debate whilst being attacked. Note you said that I would probably launch a legal action based on some allegations about employers? Hardly not playing the man is it?
I will stick to my stated position that members would have been given resources to pursue through avenues such as small claims procedure or rectifying by contact with the employer. But again difficult to respond if I do not know the specifics.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about looking after GA see previous posts we do not just look after airline only despite your view I believe we at least spend time and resources doing just that but I hasten to add we do not have infinite resources to do it for nothing.
Lawrie Cox
I will stick to my stated position that members would have been given resources to pursue through avenues such as small claims procedure or rectifying by contact with the employer. But again difficult to respond if I do not know the specifics.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about looking after GA see previous posts we do not just look after airline only despite your view I believe we at least spend time and resources doing just that but I hasten to add we do not have infinite resources to do it for nothing.
Lawrie Cox
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Australia
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Lawrie,
"Note you said that I would probably launch a legal action based on some allegations about employers? Hardly not playing the man is it?"
Hence I didn't post them!!
If I had, yes playing the man.
"Note you said that I would probably launch a legal action based on some allegations about employers? Hardly not playing the man is it?"
Hence I didn't post them!!
If I had, yes playing the man.
