Australia University Aviation Course
Have watched this thread with interest!
My two cents worth - I have a somewhat different background across a profession (not engineering), the tertiary sector and GA.
If I had a son or daughter interested in a career in aviation (as I do), I would NOT recommend they do any of the aviation courses available in Oz. In my opinion they are a meaningless qualification.
I would recommend they do an accredited degree in mechanical engineering - well recognised, bankable, qualification that will always be there to fall back on if the flying career goes pear shaped, and will open up a range of career opportunities in the aviation industry in addition to the military or airline tech crew.
Unfortunately the majority of tertiary level aviation courses in Oz are a bunch of maths and physics, and maybe some phsyc and business - with a bit of flying on the side.
Dr
My two cents worth - I have a somewhat different background across a profession (not engineering), the tertiary sector and GA.
If I had a son or daughter interested in a career in aviation (as I do), I would NOT recommend they do any of the aviation courses available in Oz. In my opinion they are a meaningless qualification.
I would recommend they do an accredited degree in mechanical engineering - well recognised, bankable, qualification that will always be there to fall back on if the flying career goes pear shaped, and will open up a range of career opportunities in the aviation industry in addition to the military or airline tech crew.
Unfortunately the majority of tertiary level aviation courses in Oz are a bunch of maths and physics, and maybe some phsyc and business - with a bit of flying on the side.
Dr
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I am currently studying the Bachelor of Aviation course at Griffith Univeristy and I must say it is the best choice I have made so far. Not only do I get to fly and get my commercial license, multi-engine instrument rating and all the ATPL subjects, but I also get to learn about all the secrets within the aviation industry. Most of out teachers are ex-captains or first officers, instructors, and other professionals within the aviation industry. Getting a degree in Aviation will help you in every way because you will be way ahead of a fellow pilot with the same amount of hours and at the same time you will have all sorts of contacts within the airlines. So in other words, having a univeristy degree in aviation and being a commercial pilot will make things much easier if your dream is to become an airline pilot. However, it is obviously also possible doing it the old way by just going to a flight school, but why not get a degree aside? Never bothers and at the same time it opens many more doors within the industry.
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The pros and cons of doing an aviation degree....everyone obviously has a different opinon on this one. I quite often hear the argument that someone interested in flying and also obtaining a university qualification should go and do another non-aviation degree (e.g. engineering etc) and then learn to fly. Pros: Having another qualification other than flying. Yes...that is true...but in reality...attending a 4 year university course and staying motivated enough to complete a course of study in an area which you are not interested in would be quite a challenge. So many people these days start university courses in an industry which they dont have an interest in.....and so many get 12-18 months into the course and pack it in because they are bored as bats*&t. Result: 18 months of HECCS fees (and they are expensive these days) and back to square one. I think if you WANT a university qualification and are keen to enter the aviation industry then an aviation degree is a logical and appropriate choice. At the end of the day...most degrees these days require some sort of post grad study anyway and this option is always available with an aviation degree (management, human factors etc).
How many other professions have degrees in another industry just incase their chosen career goes pear shaped???? Furthermore.....lets all get 2 trades just in case one trade goes pear shaped.
As to whether an aviation degree helps with obtaining employment...well who knows. I completed an aviation degree in 1998 and I have been in the airlines for 4 years. Did it help....I have no idea but it couldnt have worked against me.
Thats my 2 cents
How many other professions have degrees in another industry just incase their chosen career goes pear shaped???? Furthermore.....lets all get 2 trades just in case one trade goes pear shaped.
As to whether an aviation degree helps with obtaining employment...well who knows. I completed an aviation degree in 1998 and I have been in the airlines for 4 years. Did it help....I have no idea but it couldnt have worked against me.
Thats my 2 cents
If you learnt to fly at a private flying school, most likely a lot of the training would be one on one, and most certainly the study would be on your own, perhaps with a little assistance from your instructor and or CFI(i'm not talking about flight briefings). I know some schools have a good social enviroment and try to organise things from time to time (although i think this is a dying breed). One of the best things i got out of going to Uni was being in an enviroment with like minded people. Not only were they a great bunch of guys/gals, but we all helped motivate each other, and now as a result we have contacts not just in Australia but all over the world. When i started (94) we also had some great lecturers/instructors with an absolute wealth of knowledge. Ex RAF, RAAF, BOAC, CASA, British Aerospace engineers. I feel priveleged to have been taught by some of these guys, especially as later on i became an instructor, and realised how difficult at times it could be. UNi is not for everyone, and true if i hadn't gone to uni i might've been finished a year earlier.....but when your 20/21 whats a year make? My 2 cents.
Fork Tailed
Unfortunately the majority of tertiary level aviation courses in Oz are a bunch of math’s and physics, and maybe some phsyc and business - with a bit of flying on the side.
Edith Cowan University
Griffith University
University of South Australia
Swinbourne University
University of NSW.
There is a lot less Math’s and Physics involved and the courses focus on aviation type subjects. I would suggest to anybody contemplating a degree and who wants to fly, that they undertake a degree majoring in perhaps Psychology, Accountancy, and Finance and then perhaps if they so wish, undertake a Masters in Aviation if they feel they needed to do aviation at tertiary level.
As an aside anybody who has a first degree with passes in ATPL subjects together with an Instructor Rating and MECIR will get a host of credits towards most aviation degrees. Aviation degrees are too specialized, not highly regarded and do not allow a fall back position in case of loss of license and unemployment.
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To someone who said aviation degrees are focused on maths and physics, that simply isn't true.
MBA - the subject I disagree with you about is psychology. Employment prospect for psych graduates isn't that good, and it doesn't equip you with 'immediately useful' qualification as such, unless you do 4th year psych etc. I agree with you about finance and accounting though.
MBA - the subject I disagree with you about is psychology. Employment prospect for psych graduates isn't that good, and it doesn't equip you with 'immediately useful' qualification as such, unless you do 4th year psych etc. I agree with you about finance and accounting though.
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On the subject of aviation uni degrees, I am considering studying an aviation course at the Masters level. I currently hold a CPL, ATPL subjects and have done some business studies at uni (although I have not completed it). Does anyone have any first hand experience of the Master of Aviation Managment course at the Uni of Newcastle? Any other recommendations for masters level aviation courses?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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We only study math, physics and biology in the first semester (Griffith). As of the second semester all subjects have to do with aviation studies such as human factos, aerodynamics, air law.....
An Aviation Degree is still an "unbankable" qualification!
You would be far better off investing your time and money in a accredited professional qualification that will always be there for you to fall back on should your aviation career go pear shaped.
Dr
You would be far better off investing your time and money in a accredited professional qualification that will always be there for you to fall back on should your aviation career go pear shaped.
Dr
Yep our V tail Bonanza lover is spot on!
If you lost your medical and had a aviation degree what use is it? There is nothing you are qualified to do. You would have to go back to uni and do a masters in something else.
However if you had any science degree, engineering, Finance, Accountancy etc you could walk into a start in that industry, or even into that department in a Airline!!
You also have to consider the cost of all this. 4 years at uni then starting to learn to fly would put you a long way behind in the financial stakes.
For all those who believe that you need a degree to fly a jet this is not true. I would hazard a guess that in Australia the majority of people who fly jets do not hold degrees. AirForce pilots are considered the cream of the crop and they generally don't have degree qualifications. QF cadets generally don't have degrees. Similarly there are plenty of direct entry folks in QF and Virgin who don't hold degrees.
millonario Don't believe everything that the University PR machine tells you! I was once told by a uni lecturer that his students first jobs out of uni was flying for regional airlines at a time when Hazeltons and Kendalls wanted 1000's of hours before they'd take your resume!!
If you lost your medical and had a aviation degree what use is it? There is nothing you are qualified to do. You would have to go back to uni and do a masters in something else.
However if you had any science degree, engineering, Finance, Accountancy etc you could walk into a start in that industry, or even into that department in a Airline!!
You also have to consider the cost of all this. 4 years at uni then starting to learn to fly would put you a long way behind in the financial stakes.
For all those who believe that you need a degree to fly a jet this is not true. I would hazard a guess that in Australia the majority of people who fly jets do not hold degrees. AirForce pilots are considered the cream of the crop and they generally don't have degree qualifications. QF cadets generally don't have degrees. Similarly there are plenty of direct entry folks in QF and Virgin who don't hold degrees.
millonario Don't believe everything that the University PR machine tells you! I was once told by a uni lecturer that his students first jobs out of uni was flying for regional airlines at a time when Hazeltons and Kendalls wanted 1000's of hours before they'd take your resume!!
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There is nothing you are qualified to do
The degree I have just graduated from included a great deal of management stuff - airline-specific. Also the human factors/safety side of things was very closely explored, along with airport management and air traffic management. There is far more to aviation than driving the heavy metal, and as long as there are airlines there will be a requirement for suitably qualified people to run them.
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Joe Yellow
Have a look at this thread, even though it does not go into the specifics of University of Newcastle.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272667
Have a look at this thread, even though it does not go into the specifics of University of Newcastle.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272667
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Kookabat,
To be honest, I don't consider what you learn at university in terms of management skills and knowledge to be that relevant, airline-specific or not. With management skills, I find that you either got it or not got it. Some of the best managers I have come across have no educational background to speak of beyond year 10, and some of the worst managers had doctorate in management. In other words, having studied management does no guarantee you to be a good manager, or be equipped with relevant management-skills. If an aviation degree makes one the best sort of manager of an airline, then aviation industry's graduate recruitment would focus on aviation management graduates - but that isn't the case.
Also bearing in mind most people here are talking about the relevance of an aviation degree to professional flying career. I really don't think it would necessarily help their career - that is, even if the aviation made them a better pilot in fact.
What a lot of people seem to be saying (myself included) is that it is much better to have other professional qualifications that would lead to a backup job fairly easily if they lose their medical or cannot fulfil their dream for whatever reason. Aviation degree does not make one easily employable, and it can even make one less attractive to non-aviation employer than someone with other 'occupational' degrees such as engineering, accounting, or even commerce.
Aviation degree is great once you have some experience in the industry and 'formalise' your experience into an educational qualification or want to gain extra knowledge of the industry. Some (well, at least one) of the aviation degrees are also great for getting flying training done at HECS I believe - that would of course be very handy. If you are also genuinely interested in subject offerings of an aviation degree, then of course it would be beneficial. But if someone is doing an aviation degree purely for the sake of having 'any' degree, or if someone is trying to improve one's employability, then I believe there are better ones to do.
I find aviation industry to be very heavily experience-based rather than 'piece-of-paper'-based, and degrees don't necessarily buy you the industry experience.
To be honest, I don't consider what you learn at university in terms of management skills and knowledge to be that relevant, airline-specific or not. With management skills, I find that you either got it or not got it. Some of the best managers I have come across have no educational background to speak of beyond year 10, and some of the worst managers had doctorate in management. In other words, having studied management does no guarantee you to be a good manager, or be equipped with relevant management-skills. If an aviation degree makes one the best sort of manager of an airline, then aviation industry's graduate recruitment would focus on aviation management graduates - but that isn't the case.
Also bearing in mind most people here are talking about the relevance of an aviation degree to professional flying career. I really don't think it would necessarily help their career - that is, even if the aviation made them a better pilot in fact.
What a lot of people seem to be saying (myself included) is that it is much better to have other professional qualifications that would lead to a backup job fairly easily if they lose their medical or cannot fulfil their dream for whatever reason. Aviation degree does not make one easily employable, and it can even make one less attractive to non-aviation employer than someone with other 'occupational' degrees such as engineering, accounting, or even commerce.
Aviation degree is great once you have some experience in the industry and 'formalise' your experience into an educational qualification or want to gain extra knowledge of the industry. Some (well, at least one) of the aviation degrees are also great for getting flying training done at HECS I believe - that would of course be very handy. If you are also genuinely interested in subject offerings of an aviation degree, then of course it would be beneficial. But if someone is doing an aviation degree purely for the sake of having 'any' degree, or if someone is trying to improve one's employability, then I believe there are better ones to do.
I find aviation industry to be very heavily experience-based rather than 'piece-of-paper'-based, and degrees don't necessarily buy you the industry experience.
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But if someone is doing an aviation degree purely for the sake of having 'any' degree, or if someone is trying to improve one's employability, then I believe there are better ones to do.
Also bearing in mind most people here are talking about the relevance of an aviation degree to professional flying career. I really don't think it would necessarily help their career - that is, even if the aviation made them a better pilot in fact.
Thanks for the considered discussion, however!
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VirginBlueDriver,
I didn't even want to go there. But now you mentioned it... yes accountants thinking they make good managers! Admittedly, some accountants do make good managers, but just some...
Kookabat
I like the sensible discussion that you've presented (too many PPRuNe threads turn into silly verbal peeing contest). In any case, it's good to see people doing aviation degree with genuine interest. I actually feel that not enough people doing university degrees (that is, any degree) have passion for the subject they are studying. I guess I'm a non-believer in 'degree for the sake of a degree'.
Speaking of loss of medical, some friends of mine lost their medical after a pretty successful flying career. Where did they go? Simulator instructing
(some getting paid more than before they lost their medical - they don't know whether to be thankful or sad). Not many ex-pilot seem to end up in aviation management, although I suspect that's because they have a good loss of licence policy, enough to buy them a house in the Caribbean and retire (as long as they don't get stung in a messy divorce).
I guess the big problem comes when someone loses their medical early on in their career - can't exactly go sim instructing or become a management type. Not enough experience in the industry, leading to difficulties because they don't have enough experience in the aviation industry in any capacity - in which case an aviation degree doesn't necessarily help, whereas accountancy (god forbid!) may help them get a job in another industry (it might at least help them to pick a good loss of licence policy - once they are getting paid enough to afford it
). A bit 'safer' option to widen one's catchment area.
I'm one of those that did an aviation degree because of genuine interest and it has served me well. Not that I needed another degree though, so I always had other safety nets. Then accountants started to tell me I should do accountancy because it's good and interesting. I haven't taken that on board yet! Perhaps I shouldn't say that people should do accountancy or commerce instead of aviation management
I didn't even want to go there. But now you mentioned it... yes accountants thinking they make good managers! Admittedly, some accountants do make good managers, but just some...
Kookabat
I like the sensible discussion that you've presented (too many PPRuNe threads turn into silly verbal peeing contest). In any case, it's good to see people doing aviation degree with genuine interest. I actually feel that not enough people doing university degrees (that is, any degree) have passion for the subject they are studying. I guess I'm a non-believer in 'degree for the sake of a degree'.
Speaking of loss of medical, some friends of mine lost their medical after a pretty successful flying career. Where did they go? Simulator instructing
(some getting paid more than before they lost their medical - they don't know whether to be thankful or sad). Not many ex-pilot seem to end up in aviation management, although I suspect that's because they have a good loss of licence policy, enough to buy them a house in the Caribbean and retire (as long as they don't get stung in a messy divorce).I guess the big problem comes when someone loses their medical early on in their career - can't exactly go sim instructing or become a management type. Not enough experience in the industry, leading to difficulties because they don't have enough experience in the aviation industry in any capacity - in which case an aviation degree doesn't necessarily help, whereas accountancy (god forbid!) may help them get a job in another industry (it might at least help them to pick a good loss of licence policy - once they are getting paid enough to afford it
). A bit 'safer' option to widen one's catchment area.I'm one of those that did an aviation degree because of genuine interest and it has served me well. Not that I needed another degree though, so I always had other safety nets. Then accountants started to tell me I should do accountancy because it's good and interesting. I haven't taken that on board yet! Perhaps I shouldn't say that people should do accountancy or commerce instead of aviation management