IFR Position Reports
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IFR Position Reports
There seems to be a trend away from brief radio calls, particularly in the case of IFR position reports. Why are the words 'time', 'estimated' and other superfluous words appended to calls?
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Just get the message accross.
I agree CC.
I cringe when I hear:-
ABC Was at Banana Time 25, Maintaining Eight Thousand, Estimate Pineapple at Time 51.
There is no "was", "time" or "estimate" please.
While I am on the soapbox. It is "one five miles" not fifteen, as per the AIP
I cringe when I hear:-
ABC Was at Banana Time 25, Maintaining Eight Thousand, Estimate Pineapple at Time 51.
There is no "was", "time" or "estimate" please.
While I am on the soapbox. It is "one five miles" not fifteen, as per the AIP
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Indeed a problem
There is also the stress factor, it is often 'easier' to read back everything (and not miss something), than to filter. You can get away with this in Oz airspace, but try that in some non-english speaking airspace and you'll trigger an avalanche of confusion (indonesia comes to mind).
Aviation radiotelephony is its own language (derived obviously from English), too many people do not understand this. Things need to be said in order, correctly, and outside of English-speaking countries minus the niceties...
Aviation radiotelephony is its own language (derived obviously from English), too many people do not understand this. Things need to be said in order, correctly, and outside of English-speaking countries minus the niceties...
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Just get the message accross.
Inbound CTAF calls also do not require the words "time" and "estimate" added.
Last edited by tio540; 16th Apr 2007 at 22:28.
I don't have time to scan the AIP, and I suspect that I will get jumped all over for this, but what the heck! .........
Was not the "maintaining" introduced by ATC when calling Centre following a frequency change, when on radar?
ie "Centre, XXX maintaining 8 thousand"
however, it is not required in a full position report
eg "Centre, XXX (was) Bongo (at) 35, 8 thousand, Richmond (at) 04"
I guess you can leave the "was" and the "at's" out, but does it really make any difference?
If "maintaining" is creeping into the full position report then its probably because of the above!
Dr
Was not the "maintaining" introduced by ATC when calling Centre following a frequency change, when on radar?
ie "Centre, XXX maintaining 8 thousand"
however, it is not required in a full position report
eg "Centre, XXX (was) Bongo (at) 35, 8 thousand, Richmond (at) 04"
I guess you can leave the "was" and the "at's" out, but does it really make any difference?
If "maintaining" is creeping into the full position report then its probably because of the above!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 16th Apr 2007 at 09:11.
Grandpa Aerotart
I guess you can leave the "was" and the "at's" out, but does it really make any difference?
Too it is a bit of a slippery slope..what else will people add in because 'does it really matter'?
What is so hard about "Brisbane center, XYZ, Clapp 46, 9000, Drippy 29".
Maintaining/Climbing/descending are appropriate and correct first transmission after a frequency change. If for no other reason than a final 'gotcha' for correct understanding of clearance limit....REALLY important in places like Asia/ME etc.
Radio discipline is a hot button issue at my airline at present.
Bottums Up
Podbreak,
I can accept your stress factor for a newbie. By the time one gets to IFR one should should know what's required rather than try and read back war 'n peace, minus the bits forgotten in the oft vain hope of reading back the required bits.
Lost count of the times I've heard, "passing 5000' call Melbourne centre with departure report", but not heard
which are the ONLY required bits for most takeoff/departure clearances from ASP.
All the required bits missed but the superfluous bulsh!t rambled back.
I can accept your stress factor for a newbie. By the time one gets to IFR one should should know what's required rather than try and read back war 'n peace, minus the bits forgotten in the oft vain hope of reading back the required bits.
Lost count of the times I've heard, "passing 5000' call Melbourne centre with departure report", but not heard
- Clear for takeoff RWY 12/30
- Left/Right turn
- 128.85
which are the ONLY required bits for most takeoff/departure clearances from ASP.
All the required bits missed but the superfluous bulsh!t rambled back.
OK Chuck, I'll try to lift my game!
The one that gives me the sh*ts is the "Good morning Sir, ....", "Copied that Sir, ....", "Wilco Sir, .....", "You have a good day Sir, ......"
Then there was old mates the other day on the YTWB CTAF frequency when I was on the RNAV Appr and trying to talk to a B200 departing to the west.
"XXX, ah this is YYY. Ah, can you hear me George? Where are you?"
"Yeah, I got you Charlie. Ah, oh, ah I'm ah about ah 5 miles on ah the ah Toowoomba side of ah Pittsworth, at ah about 3000 ah feet ah on ah a ah heading ah of ah about 29 ah 5 ah. Where ah are you?"
"Oh ah oh I'm ah about ah maybe a couple of miles ah behind you. Are you ah north or ah south of ah the ah silo?"
"Ah I guess ah I'm ah maybe ah 2 ah miles ah south ah of the ah silo"
You get the picture!
If only there was a minigun mounted under the Bonanza!
Dr
The one that gives me the sh*ts is the "Good morning Sir, ....", "Copied that Sir, ....", "Wilco Sir, .....", "You have a good day Sir, ......"
Then there was old mates the other day on the YTWB CTAF frequency when I was on the RNAV Appr and trying to talk to a B200 departing to the west.
"XXX, ah this is YYY. Ah, can you hear me George? Where are you?"
"Yeah, I got you Charlie. Ah, oh, ah I'm ah about ah 5 miles on ah the ah Toowoomba side of ah Pittsworth, at ah about 3000 ah feet ah on ah a ah heading ah of ah about 29 ah 5 ah. Where ah are you?"
"Oh ah oh I'm ah about ah maybe a couple of miles ah behind you. Are you ah north or ah south of ah the ah silo?"
"Ah I guess ah I'm ah maybe ah 2 ah miles ah south ah of the ah silo"
You get the picture!
If only there was a minigun mounted under the Bonanza!
Dr
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Tio540
I suggest you go and buy a fishing rod, sounds like you have too much time on your hands, who cares if peoples radio calls are not exactly whats in the jepps, I'll bet you have said g'day to a controller before, that's not there
i think there more important things to waste you efforts on!!!!
I suggest you go and buy a fishing rod, sounds like you have too much time on your hands, who cares if peoples radio calls are not exactly whats in the jepps, I'll bet you have said g'day to a controller before, that's not there
i think there more important things to waste you efforts on!!!!
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Agree with most of this.
However my gripe is those of you who shorten headings and FL. If cleared to " fly heading 220" the word heading must be used not just 220. I often hear this mistake and some clearances often a heading and FL, ie Heading 220 climb FL210.
In position reports 8000 should be 8000 feet I feel.
However my gripe is those of you who shorten headings and FL. If cleared to " fly heading 220" the word heading must be used not just 220. I often hear this mistake and some clearances often a heading and FL, ie Heading 220 climb FL210.
In position reports 8000 should be 8000 feet I feel.
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I suggest you go and buy a fishing rod, sounds like you have too much time on your hands, who cares if peoples radio calls are not exactly whats in the jepps, I'll bet you have said g'day to a controller before, that's not there
i think there more important things to waste you efforts on!!!!
i think there more important things to waste you efforts on!!!!
It most definitely isn't a wasted topic, its one too many people don't take seriously, hence it being stressed in cyclics/checks.
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"In position reports 8000 should be 8000 feet I feel"
What other element of a position report would I have eight thousand of?
Dr
Dr
It could be 8000 meters if flying around China and Russia......etc
