IFR Position Reports
This is EXACTLY why it is where it is in Australia. In cluttered airspace it is frustrating for both the controller and other aircraft. In foreign airspace it has the potential for disaster
No better example than what happened up here the other day. A high performance single (won't mention actual a/c) came into Alice the other day with TERRIBLE radio language, sounded like he was struggling to fly and talk at the same time. The amount of 'airtime' this uy took up was really quite astounding with ATC having to repeat clearances and also having to ask the a/c to correctly readback the clearance. Meanwhile other aircraft have missed their inbound reporting point calls which putsATC behind the 8 ball for organising seperation.
Anyway what ended up happening a few days later when the same aircraft left was that it nearly took off on the reciprocal runway when another aircraft was well into its take-off roll on the opposite direction runway (and correct according to wind). Scary stuff. Apparently either no or minimal radio calls were made by this aircraft as the airfield was a CTAF at the time. No doubt it will make it to the ATSB website.
At the very least, the 'airtime' that correct calls save is significant.
From MATS
AS PAF points out FEET may be omitted for domestic flights, as can the FOLLOWING POINT unless requested by ATC or if the pilot feels it is required to confirm tracking.
[POSITION] (callsign) (position) AT (time in
minutes) (level) (next position) AT (time in
minutes) FOLLOWING POINT (ensuing significant
point)
minutes) (level) (next position) AT (time in
minutes) FOLLOWING POINT (ensuing significant
point)
"In position reports 8000 should be 8000 feet I feel"
"What other element of a position report would I have eight thousand of?"
If passing "1-1 thousand 300" (NZ airspace) not eleven thousand 300 as many use, then not using feet afterwards, the 300 could get confused. Picky I know. Saying just 8000 could also confuse a foriegn controller, they could mis interpret the accent, whereas with a feet afterwards it is very clear.
Someone else mentioned FL 8000 feet?? FL begin at 100 and 130 in AU/NZ respectivly. Once you in Flight Levels then obviously you can omit feet at the end.
Another point is the poor use of WILCO. Many readbacks are unnecssarily long due to pilots reading the full clearance back, WILCO cuts out a lot of this unnecssary chatter.
Also "Sir"; fine say it once if you must but not every transmission - try hards!
"What other element of a position report would I have eight thousand of?"
If passing "1-1 thousand 300" (NZ airspace) not eleven thousand 300 as many use, then not using feet afterwards, the 300 could get confused. Picky I know. Saying just 8000 could also confuse a foriegn controller, they could mis interpret the accent, whereas with a feet afterwards it is very clear.
Someone else mentioned FL 8000 feet?? FL begin at 100 and 130 in AU/NZ respectivly. Once you in Flight Levels then obviously you can omit feet at the end.
Another point is the poor use of WILCO. Many readbacks are unnecssarily long due to pilots reading the full clearance back, WILCO cuts out a lot of this unnecssary chatter.
Also "Sir"; fine say it once if you must but not every transmission - try hards!
Don't you just love PPRune!
"Someone else mentioned FL 8000 feet?? FL begin at 100 and 130 in AU/NZ respectivly"
Thanks for that revelation On Guard!
Psssst! - What Chuckles actually said was, "nope then it would be "xyz maintaining flight level 8000 meters"
Dr
"Someone else mentioned FL 8000 feet?? FL begin at 100 and 130 in AU/NZ respectivly"
Thanks for that revelation On Guard!
Psssst! - What Chuckles actually said was, "nope then it would be "xyz maintaining flight level 8000 meters"
Dr
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a couple of my "pet hates" when it comes to radio reports are :
1 / "Departed xxx, tracking 360 REFERENCE the NDB ..... " when departing a CTAF etc. the aid being used for tracking is NOT required unless it is a NON- RADAR controlled aerodrome.
2 / "Brisbane Tower , XXX established on the ILS at 6 miles ".... not as per the AIP!! which is just "Brisbane tower , XXX "
3 / and the all time favourite is when people "cancel SAR", not "SARWATCH"
sounds "kewl" or just too lazy to read the books ?
1 / "Departed xxx, tracking 360 REFERENCE the NDB ..... " when departing a CTAF etc. the aid being used for tracking is NOT required unless it is a NON- RADAR controlled aerodrome.
2 / "Brisbane Tower , XXX established on the ILS at 6 miles ".... not as per the AIP!! which is just "Brisbane tower , XXX "
3 / and the all time favourite is when people "cancel SAR", not "SARWATCH"
sounds "kewl" or just too lazy to read the books ?
apache
I don't think its just a case of "too lazy to read the books"!
I've been reading the books for 34 years, and have always tried to hit a high standard on radio calls, but I think that there are a lot of people out there who are unclear about just what should be read back.
Are you saying that when TL Appr tell me to "Call the Tower 118.3 leaving 3500" when on the TL ILS, that the correct call to TL Tower is "TL Tower XXX" rather than "TL Tower XXX leaving 3500" ??
Cheers
Dr
I don't think its just a case of "too lazy to read the books"!
I've been reading the books for 34 years, and have always tried to hit a high standard on radio calls, but I think that there are a lot of people out there who are unclear about just what should be read back.
Are you saying that when TL Appr tell me to "Call the Tower 118.3 leaving 3500" when on the TL ILS, that the correct call to TL Tower is "TL Tower XXX" rather than "TL Tower XXX leaving 3500" ??
Cheers
Dr
FTDK I don't think you even need the words "Townsville Tower" at all - it's a tautology if you are saying the frequency numbers.
All I would say is: "118.3, ABC"
AIP GEN 4.4.1 refers: "Only key elements .. of instructions .. ensuring sufficient detail is included to indicate compliance"
I might append a cheers or a g'day if it's quiet. *ducks*.
All I would say is: "118.3, ABC"
AIP GEN 4.4.1 refers: "Only key elements .. of instructions .. ensuring sufficient detail is included to indicate compliance"
I might append a cheers or a g'day if it's quiet. *ducks*.
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I don't think its just a case of "too lazy to read the books"!
Are you saying that when TL Appr tell me to "Call the Tower 118.3 leaving 3500" when on the TL ILS, that the correct call to TL Tower is "TL Tower XXX" rather than "TL Tower XXX leaving 3500" ??
and the DEADSET classic, is the young student doing circuits at Bankstown one day, who PROBABLY doesn't speak english as his first, or even second, language....
BK TWR . "TGL, no need to respond, cleared to land"
TGL . "no need to respond, cleared to land, TGL"
absolutley wet meself on that one.
"monkey see , monkey do". Rather than read the pertinent documents to find out the correct wording, people just copy others
Yep, this is true. I take a lead from the guys flying the heavy iron - but even they don't seem to get it right in many instances.
Dr
Yep, this is true. I take a lead from the guys flying the heavy iron - but even they don't seem to get it right in many instances.
Dr
Bottums Up
FTDK
Reference your post above (#31), when instructed to call the tower leaving A035, the only readback required is "one one eight daycimal tree; FTD". The readback is for the frequency alone, not the agency, or, where, or, when, just the frequency.
Then, unless you have been maintaining A035 there is no requirement to tell the Tower you're leaving because TL is a radar environment. So, if you've managed your approach well and it's been a constant descent, the call passing A035 would be "Townsville Tower, FTD"
Reference your post above (#31), when instructed to call the tower leaving A035, the only readback required is "one one eight daycimal tree; FTD". The readback is for the frequency alone, not the agency, or, where, or, when, just the frequency.
Then, unless you have been maintaining A035 there is no requirement to tell the Tower you're leaving because TL is a radar environment. So, if you've managed your approach well and it's been a constant descent, the call passing A035 would be "Townsville Tower, FTD"
Last edited by Capt Claret; 17th Apr 2007 at 05:25.
"Are you saying that when TL Appr tell me to "Call the Tower 118.3 leaving 3500" when on the TL ILS, that the correct call to TL Tower is "TL Tower XXX" rather than "TL Tower XXX leaving 3500" ??"
Thanks for the responses, but maybe my question was not clear.
Please note - I did not ask what the readback to TL Appr should be, I asked what my call to TL Tower should be.
Compressor Stall: In the light of the above I thought your suggested call was the weirdest I have ever heard, but I have now figured out what you intended.
Capt Claret: The std entry to the TL 01 ILS has you levelled off at 3500 to intercept the localiser and then the glideslope. The std hand off is "Call the Tower 118.3 leaving 3500.
Dr
Thanks for the responses, but maybe my question was not clear.
Please note - I did not ask what the readback to TL Appr should be, I asked what my call to TL Tower should be.
Compressor Stall: In the light of the above I thought your suggested call was the weirdest I have ever heard, but I have now figured out what you intended.
Capt Claret: The std entry to the TL 01 ILS has you levelled off at 3500 to intercept the localiser and then the glideslope. The std hand off is "Call the Tower 118.3 leaving 3500.
Dr
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FTD, if you are radar identified you do not need to say "...leaving 3500".
On another note, the word "leaving" shouldn't really ever be used, only "left". Leaving doesn't indicate the vacation of a level, only the intention, which is kind of irrelevant.
On another note, the word "leaving" shouldn't really ever be used, only "left". Leaving doesn't indicate the vacation of a level, only the intention, which is kind of irrelevant.
At the risk of highjacking this thread (although this story is about radio calls), I have to complement the patience of the guys on the Area Freq around the Mackay/Rocky area.
For some reason that part of Qld seems to attract visiting pilots from Europe (by their accents) on a tiki tour around the countryside.
The best one I have heard recently went along the lines of:
(You gotta do the XXX calls with a heavy European/Germanic accent)
XXX: Brisbane Centre, this is XXX a Cessna 182 and I have departed Keppel Is. I will be tracking direct to Mackay at 4500, can you give me the altimeter setting please?
Centre: XXX, the Area QNH is 1011. Confirm you are tracking direct Keppel Is to Mackay.
XXX: Centre, XXX, altimeter setting is 1011, and yah that is correct we are tracking direct from Keppel Is to Mackay, climbing to 4500.
Centre: XXX are you aware of Romeo 687 Alpha?
XXX: No, what is Romeo 687 Alpha?
Centre: XXX, Romeo 687 is a military restricted area where live firing is currently taking place. The direct track Keppel to Mackay will take you right through the middle of the restricted area. You need to track further west to remain clear.
[Pregnant pause]
The Centre guy went on to give our visitor a transponder code and got him identified. Then he gave him radar vectors around the restricted area, with guidance on how to get himself to Mackay after he dropped off SSR.
I thought "Good onya mate!"
but the next time you f*ck up - I suggest you adopt a thick European accent real quick!
Dr
For some reason that part of Qld seems to attract visiting pilots from Europe (by their accents) on a tiki tour around the countryside.
The best one I have heard recently went along the lines of:
(You gotta do the XXX calls with a heavy European/Germanic accent)
XXX: Brisbane Centre, this is XXX a Cessna 182 and I have departed Keppel Is. I will be tracking direct to Mackay at 4500, can you give me the altimeter setting please?
Centre: XXX, the Area QNH is 1011. Confirm you are tracking direct Keppel Is to Mackay.
XXX: Centre, XXX, altimeter setting is 1011, and yah that is correct we are tracking direct from Keppel Is to Mackay, climbing to 4500.
Centre: XXX are you aware of Romeo 687 Alpha?
XXX: No, what is Romeo 687 Alpha?
Centre: XXX, Romeo 687 is a military restricted area where live firing is currently taking place. The direct track Keppel to Mackay will take you right through the middle of the restricted area. You need to track further west to remain clear.
[Pregnant pause]
The Centre guy went on to give our visitor a transponder code and got him identified. Then he gave him radar vectors around the restricted area, with guidance on how to get himself to Mackay after he dropped off SSR.
I thought "Good onya mate!"
but the next time you f*ck up - I suggest you adopt a thick European accent real quick!
Dr
Grandpa Aerotart
FTDK the tower will know that thus telling them you have left 3500' is redundant.
My response would be "118 decimal 3, XYZ"...then "Townsville Tower, XYZ"
I do draw the line at "Wun Wun Eight Dayseemal Tree" even though that is technically more correct.
I try, not always with 100% success, to ONLY read back required items.
Altitudes (with feet or Flight Level...but admit I often omit "feet" when it is self evident)[ overseas they have also sarted using the word 'altitude' as in "Descend altitude 6000 feet, XYZ".
Headings (with direction of turn and including the word 'heading')
Route Clearances, (ground or air)
Clearance limits,
Runway name,(particularly important with parrallel runways)
Frequencies.
That aint a long list to remember. Adding in verbage is just lack of discipline.
The old days were a lot easier when MOST instructions required only your callsign in answer...but thanks to the efforts of idiots we're now required to readback much more...therin lays the problem. Laziness (copying people who should know better but often don't) is not the solution.
Some things do require verbatim readback..."Behind the landing 737, runway 19, line up behind, XYZ" for instance.
Like the TL Tower transfer mentioned above standard procedures need to be included in working out what you need to readback. Another example is the departure out of Brisbane.
You're given the required first frequency airborne a/. in the top left corner of the SID plate and b/. appended to your ATC clearance, which is readback as per the list above, as it may be different on the day due to sundry reasons.
The Clearance delivery chap would say something like.."XYZ Cleared to Blah via Laravale x, planned route, 6000', squawk 1234, first frequency airborne 123.XX"
"Laravale x, 6000, 1234, 123.XX, XYZ"
When after takeoff the Tower says "XYZ Call departures now" all that should be said is "XYZ"...not the whole verbage and I would argue not even "123.XX, XYZ" unless the tower said "XYZ call departures now 123.XX".
You already acknowledged the frequency during your ATC clearance readback...any need to do it again if the tower has not done so?
My response would be "118 decimal 3, XYZ"...then "Townsville Tower, XYZ"
I do draw the line at "Wun Wun Eight Dayseemal Tree" even though that is technically more correct.
I try, not always with 100% success, to ONLY read back required items.
Altitudes (with feet or Flight Level...but admit I often omit "feet" when it is self evident)[ overseas they have also sarted using the word 'altitude' as in "Descend altitude 6000 feet, XYZ".
Headings (with direction of turn and including the word 'heading')
Route Clearances, (ground or air)
Clearance limits,
Runway name,(particularly important with parrallel runways)
Frequencies.
That aint a long list to remember. Adding in verbage is just lack of discipline.
The old days were a lot easier when MOST instructions required only your callsign in answer...but thanks to the efforts of idiots we're now required to readback much more...therin lays the problem. Laziness (copying people who should know better but often don't) is not the solution.
Some things do require verbatim readback..."Behind the landing 737, runway 19, line up behind, XYZ" for instance.
Like the TL Tower transfer mentioned above standard procedures need to be included in working out what you need to readback. Another example is the departure out of Brisbane.
You're given the required first frequency airborne a/. in the top left corner of the SID plate and b/. appended to your ATC clearance, which is readback as per the list above, as it may be different on the day due to sundry reasons.
The Clearance delivery chap would say something like.."XYZ Cleared to Blah via Laravale x, planned route, 6000', squawk 1234, first frequency airborne 123.XX"
"Laravale x, 6000, 1234, 123.XX, XYZ"
When after takeoff the Tower says "XYZ Call departures now" all that should be said is "XYZ"...not the whole verbage and I would argue not even "123.XX, XYZ" unless the tower said "XYZ call departures now 123.XX".
You already acknowledged the frequency during your ATC clearance readback...any need to do it again if the tower has not done so?
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 17th Apr 2007 at 07:17.