When does volunteering become “working for free”
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When does volunteering become “working for free”
Volunteering for a club seems to be a common thing for both new and older professional pilots. When does it get to a point where you might be "working for free" or taking the position of a paid pilot.
Sprucegoose
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When the type of operation requires a CPL in order to be conducted!!
If it only requires a PPL then you have no choice but to work for free, oops I mean Volunter!!
I have no problem with people gaining experience in club aircraft, ie: glider towing, parachute jumping. But if the operator is selling services to the general public (ie: tandem jumps to non club members) then surely the pilot should be getting paid and hold a CPL?
If it only requires a PPL then you have no choice but to work for free, oops I mean Volunter!!
I have no problem with people gaining experience in club aircraft, ie: glider towing, parachute jumping. But if the operator is selling services to the general public (ie: tandem jumps to non club members) then surely the pilot should be getting paid and hold a CPL?
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If the owner of the aircraft or "Club" is making money ( profit ) from the operation.
Presently many parachute operations require only private licences but earn a hell of a lot of money from the aircraft, pilots deserve to be paid.
Do not think for a second that if CASA stipulates an operation "private", the pilot is any less entitled to payment.
Do not ever ever ever work for free.
Presently many parachute operations require only private licences but earn a hell of a lot of money from the aircraft, pilots deserve to be paid.
Do not think for a second that if CASA stipulates an operation "private", the pilot is any less entitled to payment.
Do not ever ever ever work for free.
Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 10th Jan 2007 at 07:58.
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If a PPL engages in PJE, does the pilot have to "cost share"??? 
If your parachute operator says they are not making money on tandems, here is the math...
Tandem $300/each
$600 revenue for the flight
0.5hrs Airswitch time for a C182 being crosshired out at around $150/hr dry
Fuel 0.5hrs @ 50L/hr @ $1.50/litre
Tandem masters pay = $40/tandem
Costs:
$75 - aircraft
$37 - Avgas
$80 - tandem masters
$15 - landing fees
$20 - Packing
$ 207 - Total COST of direct operation costs
$393 - Profit and indirect operating costs
Now if they wanted a DVD of their tandem jump add $80 ($40 of which go to the tandem masters and $5-$10 to the video mixer)
With these figures it IS POSSIBLE to have the plane go up and down with just one tandem on the C182. Sortie times will be less same with fuel costs.
Yes I do understand that advertising, Marketing, company minibus, rent, rates, etc will all add to the cots of operation, but when you think about it from "walk in to walk out" a tandem operation from 10,000' takes 60-90mins (depending if they have a video/DVD or not), multiply this by 10 tandem bookings a day (5 loads) and 10 tandems on a nice summers day is nothing! you have your self a nice $1800 plus per day operation or a C182 that is grossing $1200/hr....
Now even if you take out $30 per tandem for advertising costs etc, you still have a nice profitable operation
But your boss cant afford to pay you.....
If you want better figures send me a PM, I did them a few days into my 1st job and then showed the boss, few days later I was getting paid! Im sure they wont miss $40/hr or $20/load. It is also common for parachute operations to have the pilot stay on base or close to it, work something out with your boss about rent and wages...Most single pilot operations cant afford to have their pilot walk out on them, so the boss will treat you more like an "asset", if not im sure he can see the HUGE line at the front door for all CPLs wanting to fly for them...NOT!!!!! they all wanna get paid too....
It didnt take long for me to change the mentality of my boss, so maybe its worth having a good chat with them anyway about it......
All the best
CMN
If your parachute operator says they are not making money on tandems, here is the math...
Tandem $300/each
$600 revenue for the flight
0.5hrs Airswitch time for a C182 being crosshired out at around $150/hr dry
Fuel 0.5hrs @ 50L/hr @ $1.50/litre
Tandem masters pay = $40/tandem
Costs:
$75 - aircraft
$37 - Avgas
$80 - tandem masters
$15 - landing fees
$20 - Packing
$ 207 - Total COST of direct operation costs
$393 - Profit and indirect operating costs
Now if they wanted a DVD of their tandem jump add $80 ($40 of which go to the tandem masters and $5-$10 to the video mixer)
With these figures it IS POSSIBLE to have the plane go up and down with just one tandem on the C182. Sortie times will be less same with fuel costs.
Yes I do understand that advertising, Marketing, company minibus, rent, rates, etc will all add to the cots of operation, but when you think about it from "walk in to walk out" a tandem operation from 10,000' takes 60-90mins (depending if they have a video/DVD or not), multiply this by 10 tandem bookings a day (5 loads) and 10 tandems on a nice summers day is nothing! you have your self a nice $1800 plus per day operation or a C182 that is grossing $1200/hr....
Now even if you take out $30 per tandem for advertising costs etc, you still have a nice profitable operation
But your boss cant afford to pay you.....
If you want better figures send me a PM, I did them a few days into my 1st job and then showed the boss, few days later I was getting paid! Im sure they wont miss $40/hr or $20/load. It is also common for parachute operations to have the pilot stay on base or close to it, work something out with your boss about rent and wages...Most single pilot operations cant afford to have their pilot walk out on them, so the boss will treat you more like an "asset", if not im sure he can see the HUGE line at the front door for all CPLs wanting to fly for them...NOT!!!!! they all wanna get paid too....
It didnt take long for me to change the mentality of my boss, so maybe its worth having a good chat with them anyway about it......
All the best
CMN
Here's one...
Well established Aero Club I know of is currently suffering due to well-established animosity between current president (long-time preening C185 pilot) and the past president (who is the CFI and 3,500 hour ATPL holder).
Current president has decided to "help the club out" by volunteering his expertise and his C185 to show tailwheel endorsement candidates the ropes, thereby:
a) minimising the hours flown by the candidates on their tailwheel endorsement training;
b) robbing the club of 5-10 hours of revenue flying; and
c) robbing the instructors (who have all spent their own time and money, to some extent, making sure they are back-seat competent) of their quid pro quo.
What a guy!
Current president has decided to "help the club out" by volunteering his expertise and his C185 to show tailwheel endorsement candidates the ropes, thereby:
a) minimising the hours flown by the candidates on their tailwheel endorsement training;
b) robbing the club of 5-10 hours of revenue flying; and
c) robbing the instructors (who have all spent their own time and money, to some extent, making sure they are back-seat competent) of their quid pro quo.
What a guy!
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Bentleg, sorry, but with respect, you are wrong.
Go and read CAR 206, this is purley for the purposes of categorising the type of aviation operation ( i.e does this require an AOC ).
Industrial Relations is a whole other issue, go to their web site are test your theory against their definitions.
There are private companies moving their staff around the world in their own B737, this is categorised a private operation by CASA, these pilots do get paid.
Do not ever work for free, if you do, your resume will find its way into the round filing cabinet under any Chief Pilots desk.
Go and read CAR 206, this is purley for the purposes of categorising the type of aviation operation ( i.e does this require an AOC ).
Industrial Relations is a whole other issue, go to their web site are test your theory against their definitions.
There are private companies moving their staff around the world in their own B737, this is categorised a private operation by CASA, these pilots do get paid.
Do not ever work for free, if you do, your resume will find its way into the round filing cabinet under any Chief Pilots desk.
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rockthrower...
....where have you been??? or what do you do????
...everybody works for free ,whether you like it or not.....when I show up for work,I only get paid for the hours(credit I fly) ...dont get paid for the checking the paperwork,the pre-flight,the post flight,saying gidday to the paxs as they board,walking around the airport in my uniform giving the company free advertising...the list goes on(they call it ...part of my duties,but they dont pay me for it)..........you must be one mean SOB to employ with that attitude......
...when employed by a Commercial Airline, one must do things for free ...to get paid for the things they pay you to do....
...try putting sugar on ya wheetbix mate,instead of gunpowder....PB
....where have you been??? or what do you do????
...everybody works for free ,whether you like it or not.....when I show up for work,I only get paid for the hours(credit I fly) ...dont get paid for the checking the paperwork,the pre-flight,the post flight,saying gidday to the paxs as they board,walking around the airport in my uniform giving the company free advertising...the list goes on(they call it ...part of my duties,but they dont pay me for it)..........you must be one mean SOB to employ with that attitude......
...when employed by a Commercial Airline, one must do things for free ...to get paid for the things they pay you to do....
...try putting sugar on ya wheetbix mate,instead of gunpowder....PB
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I always wonder how CP's would know you worked for free. I worked for a small skydiving mob does that condemn me because most small skydiving mobs don't, pay do they just presume (I was paid for that job) but i've done some stuff to get clubs and schools out of a one off pickle with duty times doing comerical charters just to get some free time in bigger aircraft (i got an endorsement out of it). Is that enough to say i don't get a second look...
What gives the CP to presume the work wasn't just for freinds or paid in some other way and just those every now and again flights, thats what i'm trying to see with this post
What gives the CP to presume the work wasn't just for freinds or paid in some other way and just those every now and again flights, thats what i'm trying to see with this post
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PB,
Trolling through PPrune you'll frequently see pilots complaining about poor conditions, not being paid correctly, being "forced" to fly unservicable aircraft, generally being treated like crap. Have you put any thought into why this happen ?, the answer in short is because idiots with pilots licences work for free or are willing to work for ten dollars a day less than the guy before him.
"Where have I been" you ask, i work in GA in australia, i have always worked in GA. I have never ever worked for less than i'm entitled too, that has caused me to be unemployed in aviation for a period of about 18 months during the past ten years, purely because i would not work for crap.
I get paid a salary presently, as a pilot, being a pilot includes, paper work, wiping down oleo's, greeting customers etc etc, if you are stupid enough to have accepted a poor paying job, either live with it or grows some conjones and do something about it.
None of what i have said is in reference to a not for profit organisation.
Pilotads,
CP's vary, but generally they have been around the industry longer than the applicants they are vetting, so logically they have a fair idea which operations are legitimate and which are not, its not hard to look in your logbook and work it out.
Some CP's will not give a rats if you have worked for free, these guys are a minority.
An example: a few years ago i was the CP of a GA company, a young pilot rang one day to follow up a resume he emailed, i noticed on his resume where he was flying and easily worked out for who, i dressed him down about flying for free, even though this operator was making a tonne of money from his flying.
He gave me a list as long as your arm of Pathetic reasons why he was "working for free", i need the hours, it's a good aircraft to have hours in blah blah blah.
As you can guess he was told he would not be considered as his experience was not relevant and people like him cause the demise of employment conditions in Australian GA, he burst into tears, apparently i was the fourth person to tell him to sod off and working for free is the actions of a scumbag, ignore my adive if you like, welcome to the real world where people have families to feed and mortgages to pay.
Trolling through PPrune you'll frequently see pilots complaining about poor conditions, not being paid correctly, being "forced" to fly unservicable aircraft, generally being treated like crap. Have you put any thought into why this happen ?, the answer in short is because idiots with pilots licences work for free or are willing to work for ten dollars a day less than the guy before him.
"Where have I been" you ask, i work in GA in australia, i have always worked in GA. I have never ever worked for less than i'm entitled too, that has caused me to be unemployed in aviation for a period of about 18 months during the past ten years, purely because i would not work for crap.
I get paid a salary presently, as a pilot, being a pilot includes, paper work, wiping down oleo's, greeting customers etc etc, if you are stupid enough to have accepted a poor paying job, either live with it or grows some conjones and do something about it.
None of what i have said is in reference to a not for profit organisation.
Pilotads,
CP's vary, but generally they have been around the industry longer than the applicants they are vetting, so logically they have a fair idea which operations are legitimate and which are not, its not hard to look in your logbook and work it out.
Some CP's will not give a rats if you have worked for free, these guys are a minority.
An example: a few years ago i was the CP of a GA company, a young pilot rang one day to follow up a resume he emailed, i noticed on his resume where he was flying and easily worked out for who, i dressed him down about flying for free, even though this operator was making a tonne of money from his flying.
He gave me a list as long as your arm of Pathetic reasons why he was "working for free", i need the hours, it's a good aircraft to have hours in blah blah blah.
As you can guess he was told he would not be considered as his experience was not relevant and people like him cause the demise of employment conditions in Australian GA, he burst into tears, apparently i was the fourth person to tell him to sod off and working for free is the actions of a scumbag, ignore my adive if you like, welcome to the real world where people have families to feed and mortgages to pay.
Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 11th Jan 2007 at 22:19.
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Thanks LRT. you obvioulsy sound like you are going to make a very good employer if you are not already. I would and I think most pilots would never take up long term hour seeking unpaid work. However I would rather do a few unpaid flights if that means i get an endorsement and don't have to pay an employer to get an endorsement. Never would it be a standing arragnement just whenever they needed a hand, also i hope never to pay ICUS on flights the provider is already making money off. Stuff like that paying for endorsements and paying for ICUS when you know the flight is already covered doesn't sit right with me but flying once in a blue moon for just a stamp in the log book seems like a good financial benefit to the pilot. I hope that makes sense especially to all the empoyers out there
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Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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My spouse cost me a fortune and couldn't help me buy a packet of tictacs. and my mortgage would be paid off years ago except I'm fighting a constant battle to keep the dollars up to her. I don't know that not having a spouse isn't such a bad idea.
Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower
While I agree totally to the jist of your posts. I too was a CP of a large all twin GA operation in FNQ before moving on to the airlines in 2000. My comment was relavent to the original question asked by pilotads. If the operation requires a CPL then a PPL can't do it. If the club operation requires an AOC and CPL pilots then a PPL again can't do it. For the life of me I can't think of one operation in Australia that because it is a private operation employs PPL's and pays them for this service. All the operations I can think of require CPL's or ATPL's.
While I agree totally to the jist of your posts. I too was a CP of a large all twin GA operation in FNQ before moving on to the airlines in 2000. My comment was relavent to the original question asked by pilotads. If the operation requires a CPL then a PPL can't do it. If the club operation requires an AOC and CPL pilots then a PPL again can't do it. For the life of me I can't think of one operation in Australia that because it is a private operation employs PPL's and pays them for this service. All the operations I can think of require CPL's or ATPL's.