The rubbish taught by flying instructors.
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Training or Supervision
Since the thread is titled ‘the rubbish taught by flying instructors’ I’m wondering which schools teach their students to fly low orbits on finals. I would suggest none. Orbits may work in a controlled environment but if the circuit is busy and an orbit is executed it may lead to some other traffic conflict that the ‘orbiter’ has failed to assess.
Perhaps many of the bad practices revealed in this thread are self taught after leaving the flying school. Surprising how lack of supervision will lead to poor airmanship. I think too many of us are out to shoot down the instructor, perhaps the finger should be pointed at chief pilots and company check pilots. I know a lot have little or no instructional experience and this may lead to some missing supervisory skills. It seems there is more of a decline in standards after leaving the school rather than a development of sound operating techniques when established on the line.
Perhaps many of the bad practices revealed in this thread are self taught after leaving the flying school. Surprising how lack of supervision will lead to poor airmanship. I think too many of us are out to shoot down the instructor, perhaps the finger should be pointed at chief pilots and company check pilots. I know a lot have little or no instructional experience and this may lead to some missing supervisory skills. It seems there is more of a decline in standards after leaving the school rather than a development of sound operating techniques when established on the line.
Orbits ?
Agree with Wiz. Worth teaching students on early navs - it's a useful manoeuvre out in the low traffic country. 300 agl should be about the limit for an orbit - usually before deploying full flap. If you have a baulked approach after this - then fly the missed approach.
Anything lower than 300 ft - don't, until you have had some decent low level training.
Checklists
Checklist to fit the aircraft - only the absolute essentials.
As Wiz said, hatches on pre-take-off but not pre-landing, and so on.
The rest of these lengthy checklists is just unnecessary.
We're wasting students time on procedural matters when it should be spent gaining skills.
happy days,
Agree with Wiz. Worth teaching students on early navs - it's a useful manoeuvre out in the low traffic country. 300 agl should be about the limit for an orbit - usually before deploying full flap. If you have a baulked approach after this - then fly the missed approach.
Anything lower than 300 ft - don't, until you have had some decent low level training.
Checklists
Checklist to fit the aircraft - only the absolute essentials.
As Wiz said, hatches on pre-take-off but not pre-landing, and so on.
The rest of these lengthy checklists is just unnecessary.
We're wasting students time on procedural matters when it should be spent gaining skills.
happy days,
Forgive my possible ignorance but I can see no mention of orbits being allowed below 500' in CAR 157. If you are doing an orbit, you are no longer in my mind in the act of taking off or landing, your are now holding or delaying your landing for whatever reason. If I am missing something I have no doubt someone will point it out.
Unless of course everyone that is saying it's ok has low level approval...
Unless of course everyone that is saying it's ok has low level approval...
Awol57
You are quite correct. An “orbit” isn’t part of the process of taking off or landing. It is holding and as such CAR 157 applies. In which case if you are in a built up area you must climb to 1000 ft or 500 ft anywhere else. In 10 years of flying in GA prior to moving into the airlines six years ago I never even considered once doing an orbit once within the circuit area. It is fraught with danger. Some of them that spring to mind are no coms aircraft, obstacles in the circling area, loss of control at low level, bird strikes etc. I too have low level approval but this doesn’t exclude me from adhering to CAR157. It does give me though an appreciation of the dangers involved with flight close to terra ferma and the fact that Joe average pilot shouldn’t be trying it without the proper training. Some people on this forum need a reality check if they think that doing orbits at low level is safe. It isn’t and should only be done by appropriately qualified pilots which most of you reading this aren’t.
You are quite correct. An “orbit” isn’t part of the process of taking off or landing. It is holding and as such CAR 157 applies. In which case if you are in a built up area you must climb to 1000 ft or 500 ft anywhere else. In 10 years of flying in GA prior to moving into the airlines six years ago I never even considered once doing an orbit once within the circuit area. It is fraught with danger. Some of them that spring to mind are no coms aircraft, obstacles in the circling area, loss of control at low level, bird strikes etc. I too have low level approval but this doesn’t exclude me from adhering to CAR157. It does give me though an appreciation of the dangers involved with flight close to terra ferma and the fact that Joe average pilot shouldn’t be trying it without the proper training. Some people on this forum need a reality check if they think that doing orbits at low level is safe. It isn’t and should only be done by appropriately qualified pilots which most of you reading this aren’t.
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I once saw an instructor do an orbit on final with a student on board and told the student it was a good way of losing height if too high on final.
No one had any respect for that guy anyhow.
I have also had to take avoiding action because another aircraft did an orbit on finals, he obviously forgot that I was behind him.
There is no shame in going around, if it has to be from 300' then do it.
No one had any respect for that guy anyhow.
I have also had to take avoiding action because another aircraft did an orbit on finals, he obviously forgot that I was behind him.
There is no shame in going around, if it has to be from 300' then do it.
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The usual reason that an aircraft orbits on final is because as you where on mid downwind a jet about to take off has just lined up... so you proceed to turn base...... jet still there.... turn final.... jet still there..... slow down as much as possible..... jet still there.... and they always seem too busy to answer radio calls to advise how long they plan to sit on the active runway with five 210's and a conquest in the circuit.......... an aircraft shouldn't be on the active runway unless it is backtracking or ready to roll.......
trolleydriver
In which case you go around. At 500 ft turn crosswind and rejoin the circuit making the appropriate radio calls once safe to do so. The jet has right of way on the runway after all. It’s not your job to second guess why they weren’t rolling. They may have had a problem for all you know. Remember the old saying, Aviate, Navigate and communicate. When you start flying for an outfit which has solid SOP’s, it will be drummed into you.
In which case you go around. At 500 ft turn crosswind and rejoin the circuit making the appropriate radio calls once safe to do so. The jet has right of way on the runway after all. It’s not your job to second guess why they weren’t rolling. They may have had a problem for all you know. Remember the old saying, Aviate, Navigate and communicate. When you start flying for an outfit which has solid SOP’s, it will be drummed into you.
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404 Titain
I think you'll find my point was you don't enter and backtrack a runway if your not ready to roll, (i think thats why at the holding point at a controlled aerodrome you report ready!!!) so the tower can clear you to enter the active runway and TAKEOFF not sit there waiting for flight attendents to put there seatbelt on! Pre-takeoff checks should be completed before entering an active runway that should help prevent problems on the runway... sure it will happen rarely that a problem will arise but i've seen aircraft hold up the whole pattern way to often in my career, just because they are the airline and think they own the runway!!! that would help stop new guys (trying there hardest to cut a .1 off there flight time for there tight arse boss) from orbiting on short final!
I think you'll find my point was you don't enter and backtrack a runway if your not ready to roll, (i think thats why at the holding point at a controlled aerodrome you report ready!!!) so the tower can clear you to enter the active runway and TAKEOFF not sit there waiting for flight attendents to put there seatbelt on! Pre-takeoff checks should be completed before entering an active runway that should help prevent problems on the runway... sure it will happen rarely that a problem will arise but i've seen aircraft hold up the whole pattern way to often in my career, just because they are the airline and think they own the runway!!!
that would help stop new guys (trying there hardest to cut a .1 off there flight time for there tight arse boss) from orbiting on short final!
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404 Titan is right. Quite apart from the legality side, an orbit on short-ish finals has got to be one of the stupidist maouevers you can perform, for a variety of reasons. In addition to the reasons that 404 Titan stated, it takes you outside the protected area for the approach, it makes it far harder for a following aircraft to spot you, and for that matter an aircraft on the ground about to line up, who will look in the usual spot for an approaching aircraft and not see you. It puts you in a virtually impossible position, at some airports, should you lose the engine, and it makes it very difficult to re-stabilise the approach once you have completed the orbit.
Stupid. Don't do it.
No doubt all the PNG bush-bashers will disagree...!
Stupid. Don't do it.
No doubt all the PNG bush-bashers will disagree...!
trolleydriver
And my point was that things happen after reporting ready and entering the runway for departure. It isn’t you job to second guess what is going on in the cockpit of the aircraft on the runway. If for whatever reason they are still trying to sort their problem out, go around. By the way some airlines including mine have checks that can only be completed once lined up on the runway. If a problem is discovered at this point too bad for the aircraft on final. If we can vacate the runway we will. If we can’t, we can’t. That’s life. I suggest you deal with it. If as you say it happens too often where you fly then silly you for not allowing for it. Lastly calling ready doesn’t mean all checks have been completed. It means you are ready to enter the runway for take-off. There’s a big difference. How an aircraft is designed to be operated and how its checklists are used isn’t for you to judge, for you obviously don’t have the background yet to understand the reason why things are done the way they are done in the airlines. When you do you may have to eat your words.
remoak
This ex-PNG/FNQ bush basher doesn't.
And my point was that things happen after reporting ready and entering the runway for departure. It isn’t you job to second guess what is going on in the cockpit of the aircraft on the runway. If for whatever reason they are still trying to sort their problem out, go around. By the way some airlines including mine have checks that can only be completed once lined up on the runway. If a problem is discovered at this point too bad for the aircraft on final. If we can vacate the runway we will. If we can’t, we can’t. That’s life. I suggest you deal with it. If as you say it happens too often where you fly then silly you for not allowing for it. Lastly calling ready doesn’t mean all checks have been completed. It means you are ready to enter the runway for take-off. There’s a big difference. How an aircraft is designed to be operated and how its checklists are used isn’t for you to judge, for you obviously don’t have the background yet to understand the reason why things are done the way they are done in the airlines. When you do you may have to eat your words.
remoak
This ex-PNG/FNQ bush basher doesn't.
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I don't belive i ever said an orbit was the correct action to take... ..... I am more than happy to fly another circuit, im sure the company i fly would expect it and would kick my arse if i did an orbit on short final.... but you either had a very blessed path to the airlines or have a very short memory of the pressure placed low timers flying for small operators(you could have been one of these once) trying to save time to impress their bosses....
trolleydriver
I have a very long memory of my GA flying career. It too was the school of hard knocks. On two occasions I told my respective employers to jam their job up their respective a**es and walked. Both happened in PNG. As pilots we all try to save money for our employers. That is part of our job. It’s those that can do it safely and within the rules that will stand the scrutiny of their peers in the years to come. Some people live by their principles and some don’t. I've chosen to live by them.
I have a very long memory of my GA flying career. It too was the school of hard knocks. On two occasions I told my respective employers to jam their job up their respective a**es and walked. Both happened in PNG. As pilots we all try to save money for our employers. That is part of our job. It’s those that can do it safely and within the rules that will stand the scrutiny of their peers in the years to come. Some people live by their principles and some don’t. I've chosen to live by them.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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404 Titan
The Messiah
sometimes and not very often mind you a sparkling diamond just falls out of PPRuNe and that is one of them. 
BABY BRIAN COHEN:
[crying]
WISE MAN #1:
Ahem.
MANDY COHEN:
Ohhh!
[whump]
Who are you?
WISE MAN #1:
We are three wise men.
MANDY:
What?!
WISE MAN #1:
We are three wise men.
MANDY:
Well, what are you doing creeping around a cow shed at two o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.
WISE MAN #3:
We are astrologers.
WISE MAN #1:
We have come from the East.
MANDY:
Is this some kind of joke?
WISE MAN #2:
We wish to praise the infant.
WISE MAN #1:
We must pay homage to him.
MANDY:
Homage? You're all drunk. It's disgusting. Out! The lot, out!
WISE MAN #1:
No--
MANDY:
Bursting in here with tales about oriental fortune tellers. Come on. Out!
WISE MAN #2:
No, no. We must see him.
MANDY:
Go and praise someone else's brat! Go on!
WISE MAN #2:
We--
WISE MAN #1:
We were led by a star.
MANDY:
Or led by a bottle, more like. Go on. Out!
WISE MAN #1:
Well-- well, we must see him. We have brought presents.
MANDY:
Out!
WISE MAN #2:
Gold. Frankincense. Myrrh.
MANDY:
Well, why didn't you say? He's over there. Sorry the place is a bit of a mess. Well, what is myrrh, anyway?
WISE MAN #3:
It is a valuable balm.
MANDY:
A balm? What are you giving him a balm for? It might bite him.
WISE MAN #3:
What?
MANDY:
That's a dangerous animal. Quick! Throw it in the trough.
WISE MAN #1:
No, it isn't.
MANDY:
Yes, it is. It's great, big mmm...
WISE MAN #3:
No, no, no. It is an ointment.
MANDY:
Aww, there is an animal called a balm,... or did I dream it? So, you're astrologers, are you? Well, what is he then?
WISE MAN #2:
Hmm?
MANDY:
What star sign is he?
WISE MAN #2:
Uh, Capricorn.
MANDY:
Uhh, Capricorn, eh? What are they like?
WISE MAN #2:
Ooh, but... he is the son of God, our Messiah.
WISE MAN #1:
King of the Jews.
MANDY:
And that's Capricorn, is it?
WISE MAN #2:
Uh, no, no, no. That's just him.
MANDY:
Ohh, I was going to say, 'Otherwise, there'd be a lot of them.' [sniff]
WISE MAN #1:
By what name are you calling him?
[holy music]
MANDY:
Uh, 'Brian'.
WISE MEN:
We worship you, O Brian, who are Lord over us all. Praise unto you, Brian, and to the Lord, our Father. Amen.
MANDY:
Do you do a lot of this, then?
WISE MAN #2:
What?
MANDY:
This praising.
WISE MAN #2:
No, no. No, no.
MANDY:
Er, well, um, if you're dropping by again, do pop in. Heh. And thanks a lot for the gold and frankincense, er, but don't worry too much about the myrrh next time. All right? Heh. Thank you. Good-bye. Well, weren't they nice? Hmm. Out of their bloody minds, but still.
[WISE MEN leave]
Look at that. Hoo hoo hoo.
[WISE MEN return and grab presents]
Here! Here! Here, that-- that's mine! Hee. Hey, you just gave me that! Oh.
[whump]
[holy music]
BABY BRIAN:
[crying]
MANDY:
Shut up.
[smack]
The Messiah
No pilot can 'save' money for their employers, that is their accountants job, all we can do is operate their aircraft efficiently and professionaly to minimise the cost as best we can.
Succumbing to 'commercial pressures' is not 'saving' money it is ultimately costing money and a few other things as well.
Succumbing to 'commercial pressures' is not 'saving' money it is ultimately costing money and a few other things as well.
BABY BRIAN COHEN:
[crying]
WISE MAN #1:
Ahem.
MANDY COHEN:
Ohhh!
[whump]
Who are you?
WISE MAN #1:
We are three wise men.
MANDY:
What?!
WISE MAN #1:
We are three wise men.
MANDY:
Well, what are you doing creeping around a cow shed at two o'clock in the morning? That doesn't sound very wise to me.
WISE MAN #3:
We are astrologers.
WISE MAN #1:
We have come from the East.
MANDY:
Is this some kind of joke?
WISE MAN #2:
We wish to praise the infant.
WISE MAN #1:
We must pay homage to him.
MANDY:
Homage? You're all drunk. It's disgusting. Out! The lot, out!
WISE MAN #1:
No--
MANDY:
Bursting in here with tales about oriental fortune tellers. Come on. Out!
WISE MAN #2:
No, no. We must see him.
MANDY:
Go and praise someone else's brat! Go on!
WISE MAN #2:
We--
WISE MAN #1:
We were led by a star.
MANDY:
Or led by a bottle, more like. Go on. Out!
WISE MAN #1:
Well-- well, we must see him. We have brought presents.
MANDY:
Out!
WISE MAN #2:
Gold. Frankincense. Myrrh.
MANDY:
Well, why didn't you say? He's over there. Sorry the place is a bit of a mess. Well, what is myrrh, anyway?
WISE MAN #3:
It is a valuable balm.
MANDY:
A balm? What are you giving him a balm for? It might bite him.
WISE MAN #3:
What?
MANDY:
That's a dangerous animal. Quick! Throw it in the trough.
WISE MAN #1:
No, it isn't.
MANDY:
Yes, it is. It's great, big mmm...
WISE MAN #3:
No, no, no. It is an ointment.
MANDY:
Aww, there is an animal called a balm,... or did I dream it? So, you're astrologers, are you? Well, what is he then?
WISE MAN #2:
Hmm?
MANDY:
What star sign is he?
WISE MAN #2:
Uh, Capricorn.
MANDY:
Uhh, Capricorn, eh? What are they like?
WISE MAN #2:
Ooh, but... he is the son of God, our Messiah.
WISE MAN #1:
King of the Jews.
MANDY:
And that's Capricorn, is it?
WISE MAN #2:
Uh, no, no, no. That's just him.
MANDY:
Ohh, I was going to say, 'Otherwise, there'd be a lot of them.' [sniff]
WISE MAN #1:
By what name are you calling him?
[holy music]
MANDY:
Uh, 'Brian'.
WISE MEN:
We worship you, O Brian, who are Lord over us all. Praise unto you, Brian, and to the Lord, our Father. Amen.
MANDY:
Do you do a lot of this, then?
WISE MAN #2:
What?
MANDY:
This praising.
WISE MAN #2:
No, no. No, no.
MANDY:
Er, well, um, if you're dropping by again, do pop in. Heh. And thanks a lot for the gold and frankincense, er, but don't worry too much about the myrrh next time. All right? Heh. Thank you. Good-bye. Well, weren't they nice? Hmm. Out of their bloody minds, but still.
[WISE MEN leave]
Look at that. Hoo hoo hoo.
[WISE MEN return and grab presents]
Here! Here! Here, that-- that's mine! Hee. Hey, you just gave me that! Oh.
[whump]
[holy music]
BABY BRIAN:
[crying]
MANDY:
Shut up.
[smack]
gaunty
Yep that is certainly one of those comments. Last time I looked, operating an aircraft as efficiently as I possibly can does save my employer money or maybe it is just the bean counter side in me coming out. If it is someone needs to help me.
Yep that is certainly one of those comments. Last time I looked, operating an aircraft as efficiently as I possibly can does save my employer money or maybe it is just the bean counter side in me coming out. If it is someone needs to help me.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Nah mate you'd be an assett to whomever you offer your skills if for no other reason that you are always thinking about it rather than blindly accepting whatever is served up as SOPs etc.
I'm sure you would agree mostly they are the distillation of many years of experience, often they are folk lore, received wisdom or old wives tale. It is having the experience to recognise one from the other and the wisdom to know how to go about changing it.
In the meantine Merry Christmas to you and yours.
I'm sure you would agree mostly they are the distillation of many years of experience, often they are folk lore, received wisdom or old wives tale. It is having the experience to recognise one from the other and the wisdom to know how to go about changing it.
In the meantine Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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gaunty
Nice of you to write that out, but you could just watch it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxUZ2x6nRX4
Merry Christmas!
Nice of you to write that out, but you could just watch it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxUZ2x6nRX4
Merry Christmas!
