The rubbish taught by flying instructors.

[Centaurus]

I was surprised to hear from a student on the Cessna 172 that his grade 3 instructor insists all cockpit checks including before start, after start, run up, and before take off, are conducted with the student reading directly from a company designed written checklist. The student has never heard of a scan system of running cockpit drills and is helpless without a checklist to tell him what to do next.

What on earth are flying schools coming to when they teach blind use of a written (flying school designed of course) checklist when it is clearly unnecessary on light trainers. This subject has been covered countless times in Pprune on other forums but this is the first time I have observed this policy in action. In addition the student is being taught numerous superfluous cockpit drills such as gear down and locked and three greens despite it being a fixed gear aircraft and before landing checks include Master Switch on, magnetos on.

It is obvious if the master switch is off that there will be no power to fuel gauges, radios, flaps etc and if the mags are off the engine won't operate. When will instructors and their flying schools realise that teaching unnecessary and superfluous cockpit drills such as those described does not make better or safer pilots.

[Monopole]

Centaurus the problem is that this new G3 with their shiney little bars where taught this way by their new G3 with their shiney little bars . So it may not necessarily be the individuals fault. May need to lay off a touch

Would it suprise you if I told you that that was the way I was taught 12 years ago at my school, and that was the way I was REQUIRED to teach at several schools when I was teaching.

I'm not saying that it is right, however I do believe that a checklist must be consulted after a scan.

I do think it is an absolute joke teaching

superfluous cockpit drills such as gear down and locked and three greens despite it being a fixed gear aircraft and before landing checks include Master Switch on, magnetos on.

but why stop there. What about
1. Hatch secure - When was it opened in flight
2. PUFF - In a fixed pitch, with the 'P' being 'pitch'

you could go on .

TEACH THE STUDENT HOW TO FLY THE AIRCRAFT THEY ARE FLYING AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT. NOT HOW YOU THINK THEY WILL DO IT IN A 747

Mono

[Capn Bloggs]

I think teaching pilots from day one to check the gear (whether it is bolted down or not) is a good idea. If he then plays musical aeroplanes he is at least going to get that right.

Or should he have, in his navbag, a set of scans and checkists for every different type of aeroplane he flies?

[Centaurus]

OK so if the student is going to be taught a ficticious cockpit drill of landing gear down just in case one day he will fly a retractable, then there is little point in also him undergoing the specific training called Special Design Feature which is supposed to teach him about landing gears. And to go a step further then how come if students are taught to say gear down and locked as part of the before landing drill, yet they are not taught to say "gear up and Locked" as part of the after take off check. And if all retractable gear aircraft in the Australian inventory also have variable pitch propellers then why not get the student to call "pitch fully fine " before landing a Cessna 150. After all he may one day fly a aircraft with not only retractable gear but also a variable pitch prop.

And of course you could also throw in a call after landing of "ground Fine pitch or simulated reverse thrust just in case you know he may fly a Saab 340 or a jet. I mean where does all this nonsense stop in GA? Better still, how did it all start and when, as all these additional "drills" were never part of the aircraft manufacturer's POH

As some one said is it because lots of cockpit drills sound just like real airline pilots doing their job in a multi-crew environment.

[Aussie]

Its called a checklist..... not a DO list.

Aussie

[the dean]

have to agree with some of what is said...but remember we are teaching the basic skills the will remain with the student for the rest of his/her days...and of course no point in teaching jet SOPs etc but it is reasonable to at least assume the student will graduate to a complex single at the least and anything more complicated than that will have to separately learned...

agreed it sounds silly to start landing checks with ''master on..mags on....'' mind you i have never heard of that...in 30 something years flying any i ever heard always started with ''brakes off...undercarriage down and locked...''

but the important thing is the student is taught to use a checklist...

so...''brakes off...''

the dean.

[robdesbois]

Currently a student (although UK) - I have been taught to use the checklist for pre-flight, startup, pre-departure, post-land and shutdown checks. In other situations I do from memory e.g. BUMMFICHH for downwind checks.

Despite learning in a simple SEP at the moment I 'check' for undercarriage down and locked. I agree that this is unnecessary though - this is that it just becomes a memorised response and when I come to complex a/c I will continue to just say it, rather than actually check (as was exemplified in a report either on here or CHIRP recently).


As far as I understand, my school's policy is use, and expect to always use the checklist, expect for emergency procedures which should be memorised.

--Rob

[ScottyDoo]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Or should he have, in his navbag, a set of scans and checkists for every different type of aeroplane he flies?

Yes.

Or in his head. Either way, he should be aware of which type he's flying and apply the correct procedures.

If someone NEEDS a written checklist for a 172, there's something wrong. RAAF pilots demonstrate that memory checklists are adequate in a single pilot environment.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I agree with centaurus 100%.

The reason why they have come to be used as they are is because CASA has 'mandated' them.

A typical GA aircraft, single or light twin, is no place for paper written checklists period...let alone one where some CP,CFI or G1 has gone to some effort to fill them with superfluous items.

I was given a written checklist for flying lesson no 1 but by flying lesson no 3, with a different Instructor, it had been ripped from my grasp and I was never to use one single pilot again.

I have a SAFGO checklist in my Bonanza and I believe they are excellent. Complete a scan and flick the tab. When the tabs are all up you are ready to takeoff and when they are all down you are safe to land.

When I drew up the 'checks' for my SAFGO I did it bearing in mind that very innexperienced pilots would be flying it so I deliberately structured it in such a way as to encourage good airmanship as well as cover the killer items like trim, gear etc. This is an old piccy before my new radios etc Note most items are just that...an item with no response. They prompt you to think about said item and where you would like it to be rather than dictate a position

As a result the checks start at TOPD and only about the last 4 tabs are real pre landing checks designed to stop expensive noises. The takeoff tabs are similar and start before even turning the master on with a quick panel scan that covers the fuel selector, lights, CBs and gear handle 'down' before applying electrons. If I was the only pilot flying the aeroplane I would remove it.

I flew a C441 for a while that had one of those silly roller blind type checklists...it was so cumbersome to use and so full of stupid checks I stopped using it completely and flew the aeroplane only on scans...and never had a problem.

What we should be teaching young pilots to do is think instead of parroting checklists with no meaning...like "Gear down and welded"

When you stop to think about it there are very few things that need to be on a checklist for ANY GA aeroplane flown single pilot.

Controls,
Trims,
Gear,
Flaps.

Most pilots wiggle the controls without much thought and check off 'controls'. What they should be doing (taught to do) before starting the engine and taxiing is to sit quietly and slowly move the controls to their full extent while listening and feeling for problems.

Trims. Right after checking meaningfully for full and free movement you should excercise the trims to their full travel and then set them for takeoff in a meaningful way...when things are quiet and you can feel and hear whether they are working freely. The only times trim can kill you really is miss set for takeoff...the rest of the time you're trimming as required.

Gear I check the handle is down before applying electicity to the system and I check the gear is really up after I have cleared the circuit. I know how to extend it by the alternate method by heart and I know that given how my early Bonanza system is wired that if I have one green light all the wheels must be down and locked. On downwind abeam the landing threshold the gear goes down or passing 1500' on a straight in approach...this has been a habit for 25 years...it's like breathing out after breathing in. When I select the gear up or down I pay attention...I know what that feels like in my Bo and if it feels different I look for why. On short final I still do a final PUF check. That is what should be taught when a pilot starts flying retractables...not in a C152.

I have yet to have a fright from controls, gear, trims, flaps...including a couple of malfunctions...a few of which I discovered before starting the engine.

[kellykelpie]

Have to agree with Capt Bloggs on this one.

All pilots need to make a gear check before landing whether its fixed or not. Anything else is inviting trouble.

As for scans - they work well in airlines but Dr Dan the once a month flyer might be better off using it as a do list. These guys are not professionals.

[Chimbu chuckles]

You make a good point about infrequent flyers.

Perhaps however if the KISS principle was followed instead of long written lists infrequent flyers would do better. Perhaps if CASA mandated some form of mechanical checklist like the above with tailored check items in every aircraft operated single pilot and pilots were taught to use them correctly from day one there would be fewer problems than at present.

Certainly every complex (I hate that term) single or twin should be so fitted.

It worked a treat in Talair...we routinely hopped from Islander->C402->Twotter-> Bandit in a single day and all flown single pilot. Every Talair aircraft had the identical checklist system to the above piccy with tailored checklist items. Granted by the time you were aeroplane hopping in such a manner you had many 1000s of hours in general and usually 500-> 2000 in type but the system works when used correctly. Undercarriage didn't feature on the Islander and Twotter SAFGOs

I virtually never fly fixed undercarriage aircraft these days...in fact the only ones in the last 10+ yrs were a couple of C180s belonging to friends and another's Tigermoth. Of course 'gear' popped into my mind rejoining the circuit...but was as quickly dismissed as innappropriate to the type...I wasn't chanting "gear down and bolted" as I flew downwind in either.

Even aircraft like my Bonanza are very simple aeroplanes...perhaps our industry would be doing better if we simplified things rather than over complicate stuff to the point we scare people away...or worse confuse them?

[Sunfish]

As a low time PPL, I have direct experience of the matters of which you speak, totally unclouded by years of experience and perhaps cynicism.

In future I will indeed check the controls quietly before starting the engine. I
will also do it as part of my run up check anyway.

I was taught to do the checks from memory. Pre start, taxiing, run up, pre takeoff and entering the runway.

Landing checks are BUMFOAH - brakes tested and off, undercarriage down, mixture full rich, masters, magnetos, fuel selected fuel quantity fuel pump on, oil press, oil temp, autopilot off, hatches and harnesses.

Now I've been doing it this way since starting in a Cessna 150. I do say "undercarriage down and welded" in a fixed gear aircraft, or "Undercarriage selected down, and "undercarriage down three greens" in a retractable and my hand doesn't leave the undercarriage lever until I've seen three greens.

On final at 300 feet, I turn carb heat off and go "propeller, undercarriage, flaps (PUF).

Now let me tell you a little secret. On a retractable, I've missed retracting the gear more than once. Guess why?

I've read somewhere (perhaps on Pprune) that under great stress pilots revert to their earliest training. No "thinking" or "mature consideration" occurs. I'd rather think of something and then discard it as unnecessary than the reverse. Therefore I'll continue checking non existent items: that my gear is welded down, that my imaginary autopilot is off, that my fixed pitch propellor is fully fine, and that my mythical fuel pump is on, as long as I fly.

PS Them SAFGO thingies wiggle up and down but they is great to hang my Gps on

[ContactMeNow]

I personally think its the flying schools fault. Making their students feel like they are flying something bigger than what they actually are flying. This is good (not really) from the flying schools perspective, as it all "adds" to the bullsh1t advertising of, "we are the best flying school in all of Australia, you will be flying for the airlines once you have got your wings".

Fly the aircraft you are flying now, not the one you "might" be flying later.....the last thing a 10hr GFPT students wants to know, is PUFF (or whatever it is) coming down finals in their C152, just to further confuse the crap out of them.

Yes there is the whole arguement regarding the use of "gear down" for a fixed U/C aircraft further into your training (CPL), but at the end of the day the PIC should be thinking to him/herself, that the aircraft they are CURRENTLY flying has a retract U/C so I MUST pull the gear down...Its not rocket science

Soon the flying schools will adopt "multi crew environments" in the cockpit to further add to the "airline experience" or is it just a case of the G3 wanting to actually fly the plane

CMN

Can't be ar$ed checking for spelling either!

[Centaurus]

Now I've been doing it this way since starting in a Cessna 150. I do say "undercarriage down and welded" in a fixed gear aircraft, or "Undercarriage selected down, and "undercarriage down three greens" in a retractable and my hand doesn't leave the undercarriage lever until I've seen three greens

Funny about hands not leaving the gear lever until three greens. Boeing and Airbus pilots are not required to do that little trick so I guess it is yet just another gimmick. Gimmicks are fine but not when some idiot instructor insists you use his gimmicks. Oil temperature as a before landing check? if the oil temperature is higher or lower than expected then exactly how does that affect your landing? I also notice that none of the checks described for landing include the Cessna POH action of SEAT SECURE. Now that IS a important check especially with the dodgy servicing one expects with GA types where seat rails are rarely inspected for correct bolt locking.

This thread could go on for ages but maybe pilots reading these pages could now think for themselves rather than accept blindly whatever their instructor tells them is the gospel truth.

[Ratshit]

I gotta agree with Chuckles on all of what he says above (except maybe the "gear down and welded" cause I used to say that when I was jumping from one type to another). Irrelevant now as I rarely fly other than a retractable.

However, somewhere in here I do have a rant about throwing away written checklists and burning some good rote (?) learned ones into your brain.

I have never used a written checklist in anything from a C150 to the C402, except when forced to do so during a licence test when told it was mandatory.

R

[training wheels]

Originally Posted by Centaurus

Funny about hands not leaving the gear lever until three greens. Boeing and Airbus pilots are not required to do that little trick so I guess it is yet just another gimmick. Gimmicks are fine but not when some idiot instructor insists you use his gimmicks.

Mate, I agree with you to an extent but BUMFOH checks has been around for as long as I can remember. In fixed wheels, U - Undercarriage fixed and M- Magnetos - confirm on "both" (in case it was never on "both" prior to taking off after doing the mag checks on the ground in the run-up bay, I guess )

Agree with you about Oil temparature and pressures, but in training, this is useful to monitor when you're doing touch and gos ... if you find them to be high, then make it a landing rather than touch and go and call it a day for circuits.

Keeping your hand on the gear lever is not so much a "gimmick" but a technique I guess, and many of us will have developed our own techniques over the hours of training. If you don't mind me asking, could you list your downwind checks for us to comment? .. just interested, that's all .. and I guess we can all learn from one another.

[Atlas Shrugged]

I personally think its the flying schools fault. Making their students feel like they are flying something bigger than what they actually are flying.

During initial circuit training my instructor taught me to fly a bizzare type of oval shaped pattern or a “curved approach” as he called it in a 2 seat Grob. When I questioned him as to why I remember him saying “That’s the way you will have to fly it when you get into a Metro”. To this day, almost 17 years later I've never flown a Metro, nor an oval shaped circuit and doubt that I ever will.

It’s always amused me though.....

[llanfairpg]

Why is an oval circuit bizzare, I think a square circuit is bizzare and expensive and is yet another relic of WW2 training?.

Our students get at least 2-3 more circuits an hour and at £120 per hour work out the saving. It also produces better pilots with better handling skills.

It also prevents bomber circuits were no one can see each other because there in such wide ridiculous circuits.

We use check lists as a training aid on the ground only, it teaches the checks in same way an actor learns his lines from the written word to start with. Dont forget not everyone that learns to fly has A level maths or indeed any educational qualifications. It always amazes me why some qualified pilots get so upset about using a checklist but its always the same undiscliplined inpatient and unproffesional ones--best to stay out of flying instruction if you cannot discipline yourself to be professional

[llanfairpg]

Originally Posted by training wheels

downwind checks for us to comment?

PLEASE DONT CALL pre-landing checks downwind checks-- otherwise you know what will happen when you join on base or final!

[Miraz]

I am a pre-GFPT numpty doing my basic training - I travel a lot for business, so I am splitting my training between two flying schools, which means that I am flying with multiple instructors, under different CFI's, etc...

In both cases the instructors expect the printed checklists to be followed for ground checks and standardised nemonic rote-type checklists to be used in the air.
(as a side comment - Only one of the schools expects the aircraft to be leaned on the ground, or in the circuit)

Is this something that is also commonly practiced by career instructors, as opposed to those that are instructing primarily as a means of building hours and moving on?

What are the examiners looking for at this level of experience?

I have some previous flying experience - albeit with sailplanes, and that was some time ago now. Nmenonic checks were taught as a means of self-checking the completeness of your checks, not as the means of performing the checks or reconfiguring the aircraft. I have been ticked off a few times by the instructors for using this approach for powered flight.