The rubbish taught by flying instructors.

[the wizard of auz]

Nah, not a king leo driver. further south.
check your door when you close it...........its all part of closing the door.
If it comes open, its no biggy anyway, just land If you have to, and close it again (remember to lock it when your closing this time ). pretty rare for the engine to stop, gear to jam in the up position or wings to come off if the door comes open, so really not a critical check, hardly warranting a place on a checklist.

[tinpis]

Wizza doesnt work..hes always here on proon..

[the wizard of auz]

Just keeping an eye on you me old mate....... just keeping an eye on you.
sometimes there is some redeeming factors in being self employed. as well as the fact that I fly while you blokes sleep and then knock off around smoko time. I can assure you I fly waaay more hours a month than most GA blokes.

[tinpis]

No fline fer me nowdays but I likes me nanna nap

[the wizard of auz]

As you should.

[Arm out the window]

Wiz: (my own personal thoughts on making people check gear down and locked on a fixed gear aircraft, is it teaches them complacency and also prompts one to use the check, but not actually check........... because we all know the gear will be there).

Well said - this kind of point should be raised in CRM courses. 'Keep it real!'

[RENURPP]

Unfortunately, some junior instructors read some of this nonsense and are unable to determine the good from the bad.
then some one may start a post, "The rubbish taught by flying instructors, that they read on PPRUNE"

I am assuming the rubbish is coming from very talented CHARTER PILOTS

[the wizard of auz]

Nah mate. If you have fingers, you can post here.

[RENURPP]

You fly a Cesssna 150 like a Cessna 150 and you fly a Boeing like a Boeing. Doing Boeing type things in a Cessna is just as dumb as doing Cessna type things in a Boeing.

We fly a Boeing like a 146, don't we?

[Captain Sand Dune]

You would never orbit less than 500ft agl. And it can be better than an extra 0.1 on the switch.

And speaking of orbiting on finals skywest FNA conducted an orbit on finals up here last week to give way to 2 aircraft one 3 mile and one 1 mile on straight ins. I was 3 mile in the A36, told the F50 i would go round if it didnt work, and he said dont worry mate, we will orbit and make second to you. Pretty impressive seeing a F50 doing that next to you!

WTF is this cr&p about orbiting on final!?!?!
So we're quite happy to fly an orbit at lowish altitude, low speed with gear and flap out are we?! It's not a circling approach following an instrument approach. It's a normal, daytime visual circuit!! So much for being stabilised on approach. Not only is this potentially unsafe, it's a great way to fcuk around an otherwise orderly circuit pattern.
A safe, efficient go around can be accomplished in minimum time. "Safety" and "efficiency"; the two prime components of that thing called "airmanship".

[the wizard of auz]

WTF is this cr&p about orbiting on final!?!?!
So we're quite happy to fly an orbit at lowish altitude, low speed with gear and flap out are we?!.

Not only is this potentially unsafe, it's a great way to fcuk around an otherwise orderly circuit pattern.

What a load of crap.
Just how is it dangerous?????
The aircraft doing an orbit could be on a 20/10/5 mile final, and not even in the circuit. Just how does this stuff your orderly circuit up?.
If you cannot fly a safe orbit with your gear and flap out buddy, you shouldn't be in the cockpit.
How many miles do you need to organize a safe stable approach?.
you can be safe, and efficient and display extremely good airmanship by separating yourself from traffic with an orbit........... regardless of where you happen to be in the circuit. if the aircraft had a tendency to fall to the ground when completing an orbit........... It would have a great big sticker on the dashboard stating " Orbits below 1000 feet prohibited" and CASA would install something in the regs to stop you doing it.

I might also add, in my 14 years of clattering around the sky into CTAS's and MTAF's (oh, I mean MBZ,s) I have probably had to join a circuit to seperate my self from traffic maybe half a dozen times........ so there generally isn't a circuit to mess up. (well, except Broome.its always full). competent use of your radio will provide you and any other traffic with enough separation to avoid any conflict.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Wiz matey, for the first time ever I've gotta disagree with you (must be the beers I had! ).
IMHO an aircraft on a 20/10/5 mile final isn't in the circuit.

The aircraft doing an orbit could be on a 20/10/5 mile final, and not even in the circuit. Just how does this stuff your orderly circuit up?.
If you cannot fly a safe orbit with your gear and flap out buddy, you shouldn't be in the cockpit.

I've only been clattering around for 21 years, so I've got a reasonable idea of what's involved with low level maneouvring. Is it really a good idea doing that sort of thing in a visual circuit in a largish aircraft such as an F50 or a Dash 8?
Bl**dy hell - why not chuck orbits in a 747 on final for 16R at Sydney if you want? Much better than doing a (ooooohh) go around eh?!
It's this type of mentality that put QF off the end of the RWY at Bangkok.

[bushy]

?????

This sort of thing had absolutely nothing to do with the BanKock accident.

I've been requested (by the tower) to orbit many a time to make way for other (usually bigger) aircraft. It's common in GA. It's the airlines and the military that get "nannied" by the army of govt employees so they do not have to.

[Bankstownboy]

In reply to the general gist of the thread I just thought I'd say that I've always used the BUMFISH method. Probably a bit silly having the 'U' part for a fixed trike 152 but what the hell...

As for doors and stuff coming open, I bloody had window on the other side come open today on upwind, so yeah the hatches and harnesses check on downwind doesn't really add up to too much, but procedure is procedure!

[robdesbois]

Where people here are advocating orbits on 'finals' are we talking short final (4nm), long final (8nm), or before even that?

The aircraft doing an orbit could be on a 20/10/5 mile final, and not even in the circuit. Just how does this stuff your orderly circuit up?.
If you cannot fly a safe orbit with your gear and flap out buddy, you shouldn't be in the cockpit.

Ok this isn't a problem -- as you say, not even in the circuit. And yes, if you can't fly an orbit in that setup then something is amiss!
But! to orbit on short final in the circuit is a bad idea -- if at that point the runway is not clear or the approach is not stable then go around because that's what it's there for!

[the wizard of auz]

even down to a couple of hundred feet I would. after announcing my intentions on the radio, do a quick orbit. it takes on average, six minutes to do a circuit from the final position. It takes two to do an orbit. nothing either unsafe or improper about it. If you have trouble doing an orbit in VMC at a couple of hundred feet, your in trouble to start with. although I doubt that skywest would use such a maneuver at the low levels I would deem as exceptable (due to me using much smaller aircraft........... and having about 8K hrs at 50 ft).
If they were out on a long final, I doubt very much that they would have been below 1000 or been upsetting anyones orderly pattern........ Hence my previous statement.
If you read old mates post, he said he was 3 miles, someone else was 1 mile and FNA was behind both of them doing the orbit.

[Ellsworth]

Just like the old "Hatches & Harness" check. What's the f ing point?

I hope you are disciplined enough not to leave any part of seatbelts hanging out during takeoff. You won't keep your job after that.

[the wizard of auz]

You would be stunned at the absolute carnage a belt outside causes to the airframe in one circuit.
Just as a side note. I fly around with the window open and sometimes without a door............... sort of negates the hatches and harnesses check. and besides, If it had to integrated into a check list item, Harnesses should be at TOD as it is a legal requirement for the PIC to be wearing a harness/seat belt at or below 1000 ft AGL.

[chookcooker]

Its legal req. for everyone on board to wear a seatbelt below 1000 AGL, and the pilot, if single pilot, must wear a seatbelt at all times. But I agree that seatbelts should be somewhere closer to TOD, in what I fly, thats where the 'PAX Security' comes up in the checks, not pre landing.

[Captain Sand Dune]

But! to orbit on short final in the circuit is a bad idea

That's what I was referring to.

This sort of thing had absolutely nothing to do with the BanKock accident.

The F/O had initiated a go around becasue the approach was going pear shaped. Had she been allowed to continue the go around, this event would never have even made the evening news.
However the captain had other ideas. We all know the rest.
It's the "never go around no matter what" attitude that I was referring to.