Help needed from ATC re: STARs
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Only to the facilities located airside.
BN and ML centres, SY TCU, CS TCU and PH TCU are all non airside locations, not sure about AD TCU, but remember seeing their building off the road on the airport, but it may still be non-airside. Ring the numbers in ERSA and ask, then go for a visit.
BN and ML centres, SY TCU, CS TCU and PH TCU are all non airside locations, not sure about AD TCU, but remember seeing their building off the road on the airport, but it may still be non-airside. Ring the numbers in ERSA and ask, then go for a visit.
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Regards bringing ASIC, I'm sure it won't hurt to have it on you - doesn't really take up much space! And whoever you talk to to arrange it will advise you of the correct procedure for gaining entry.
Cheers,
NFR.
Cheers,
NFR.
Last edited by No Further Requirements; 3rd Oct 2006 at 23:31. Reason: Poor spelling!
Bottums Up
But surely if one visits an ATS facility where they actually control aircraft, and one doesn't have an ASIC, one could be presumed to be a nefarious terrorist, intent on subverting the control of an aircraft or three, and causing mayhem!
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Funnily enough, there are different ASICs. There is the Red one that lets you go Airside, like onto the aprons and stuff at airports and a grey one that is for, I think it is called, landside. The grey is for areas that are not airside. I personally have a grey one as my ops manager(ATC) said that is all I need... until I have to take the rostered famil flight and that grey baby does not get me onto the flight deck.
Exactly the same checks to get them by the way.
Exactly the same checks to get them by the way.
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Just contact the centre ... informal visits by pilots accomodated and welcome.
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Yes, if you are logged on to CPDLC, ATC can see everything that is in Route 1 (Boeing) of the FMC.
Two years ago, and a thousand miles off the coast, we got a message from ATC to remove the STAR that we had inserted enroute as we hadn`t been cleared for it yet. I really wanted to tell them to eff off as this is my FMC not theirs and I will use it as I deem appropriate. Anyway, since that time I still insert the expected arival, approach and runway and nobody has told me otherwise.
Two years ago, and a thousand miles off the coast, we got a message from ATC to remove the STAR that we had inserted enroute as we hadn`t been cleared for it yet. I really wanted to tell them to eff off as this is my FMC not theirs and I will use it as I deem appropriate. Anyway, since that time I still insert the expected arival, approach and runway and nobody has told me otherwise.
BTW Nil defects I totally agree with you about the FMS. We shouldn't be interfering with it. The clearance CPDLC message should only be used when I am giving ammended route clearances and all "paper" clearances should have been given by freetext. Did you take this up with your procedures people? Sometimes things only get changed if the pilots complain. Personally I don't care what you load as long as you fly what you have been cleared. Unfortunately there were a couple of incidents on Perth arrivals where the controller received the ARCW warning indicating and aircraft had planned a STAR. They didn't act upon it because they thought the next sector (who would normally issue the STAR) would fix it. The aircraft then proceeded to fly the STAR without being issued it, the controller was stood down for not querying the alert.
Thanks Will, that's interesting info.
You were reasonably close as we were inbound Perth but in a B777 and from the North-West so definitely not south of 45 South. In fact, as you know the Australian FIR out in that direction extends to almost Columbo.
Male' airspace is Class G and Columbo is A/G so presumably G near the FIR boundary but haven't actually been able to determine what it is.
At the time we got a CPDLC message to remove the arrival we were already well inside Australian airspace and presumably already had a route clearance, so I am still mystified why we had to do that. I will add as before though that it doesn`t seem to occur now - has the software been upgraded?
On another issue with CPDLC, whilst you're here-
We have had many non-compliance infringements for such heinous offences as adding "Good Morning" onto a CPDLC position report. I would go as far as to say some guys would rather use HF these days, to make a request, than run the risk of a note from the CAA for any non-standard use. HF might be taped but every word you utter is not printed out for some imbecile in the office to ring you up three weeks later. Why are the CAA so pedantic about this. Some places like Calcutta actually send you a "Good Morning"when you log on. It is the only nice thing about Calcutta but makes a pleasant change from the stress in Australian FIR's.
One more question: If you are entering Australian FIR from Class G (eg Columbo) and make the standard Log on 20 mins before the boundary and send a position report and make a Selcal Check on HF, are you required to send a Clearance request as well or can one assume that the logon and position report are sufficient.
I know it is progress that ADS now provides you with every aircraft's exact postion but in some regards it was far more relaxing pre ADS when you could fly across the Indian Ocean, avoiding buildups as you see fit without having to request Diversions left and right every ten minutes.
That is also a limitation of the CPDLC Route Request page. You can`t request 20 miles left AND right of TR except by making two clearance requests. Or is it acceptable to make one request say for L20 and add also R20 in the free text section with that request? What would you prefer?
I haven`t taken this up with our procedures people but probably should have. The effort to get the wheels turning is beyond my interest these days.
Thanks for the feedback - and I am happy you can't see all of Route 1!
You were reasonably close as we were inbound Perth but in a B777 and from the North-West so definitely not south of 45 South. In fact, as you know the Australian FIR out in that direction extends to almost Columbo.
Male' airspace is Class G and Columbo is A/G so presumably G near the FIR boundary but haven't actually been able to determine what it is.
At the time we got a CPDLC message to remove the arrival we were already well inside Australian airspace and presumably already had a route clearance, so I am still mystified why we had to do that. I will add as before though that it doesn`t seem to occur now - has the software been upgraded?
On another issue with CPDLC, whilst you're here-
We have had many non-compliance infringements for such heinous offences as adding "Good Morning" onto a CPDLC position report. I would go as far as to say some guys would rather use HF these days, to make a request, than run the risk of a note from the CAA for any non-standard use. HF might be taped but every word you utter is not printed out for some imbecile in the office to ring you up three weeks later. Why are the CAA so pedantic about this. Some places like Calcutta actually send you a "Good Morning"when you log on. It is the only nice thing about Calcutta but makes a pleasant change from the stress in Australian FIR's.
One more question: If you are entering Australian FIR from Class G (eg Columbo) and make the standard Log on 20 mins before the boundary and send a position report and make a Selcal Check on HF, are you required to send a Clearance request as well or can one assume that the logon and position report are sufficient.
I know it is progress that ADS now provides you with every aircraft's exact postion but in some regards it was far more relaxing pre ADS when you could fly across the Indian Ocean, avoiding buildups as you see fit without having to request Diversions left and right every ten minutes.
That is also a limitation of the CPDLC Route Request page. You can`t request 20 miles left AND right of TR except by making two clearance requests. Or is it acceptable to make one request say for L20 and add also R20 in the free text section with that request? What would you prefer?
I haven`t taken this up with our procedures people but probably should have. The effort to get the wheels turning is beyond my interest these days.
Thanks for the feedback - and I am happy you can't see all of Route 1!
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Capt Claret
Without giving too much away, in some ways you are correct about security at ATC Centres. I remember visiting West Drayton before 9/11 to be greeted by a very nice looking sub-machine gun.
Perhaps they were expecting the arrival of the flow?
Without giving too much away, in some ways you are correct about security at ATC Centres. I remember visiting West Drayton before 9/11 to be greeted by a very nice looking sub-machine gun.
Perhaps they were expecting the arrival of the flow?
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We weren't permitted to clear the aircraft for the star from 2000nm out so we had to get them to send the request without the STAR info. We would then send them back a "clearance" which contained exactly the same route data which they would reload to there FMS (perhaps minus STAR data).
If they couldn't get the same clearance, I could only think that they would have delete every single line of waypoints for the star in the FMS and re-load it to the ammended one ? Not unless of course they have it in RTE 2, I guess.
Just another question - would a STAR only be given while in controlled airspace ? what if you were coming in from class G into C or G into A ? thanks again.
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Nil defect
Colombo and Male now class A btwn F280-F460 so clearance not required if you are coming in from there. Establishing comms is not good enough your are supposed to get a clearance either through datalink or on HF.
I am still wondering how we knew what you were flying. An ARCW could have happenned a fair way out if you were on A594, NINOB-MERIB-QUINS-PH. If you had planned the STAR we would get the ARCW once you had passed NINOB, approx 612nm from Perth.
Were you asked to "Confirm Assigned Route" otherwise I can't think of anyway we would know that you had planned the STAR until you were within waypoint + 1.
When you say the CAA are you refering to an Australian body (maybe CASA or Airservices Australia, the CAA in Australia was split into these two seperate organisations a few years back). You shouldn't get in trouble for adding good morning onto the end of a message in Aussie airspace.
The practise of diverting around wx without clearance was probably OK when we were giving you 15min and 100nm cross track separation standards. The airlines have pushed for reduced separation in Oceanic areas and so we now have much reduced RNP separation standards. By taking unauthorised wx deviations you are increasing the risk of something going wrong. It doesn't take long to ask via datalink on most occasions we would prefer you to ask. I have passed your query about requesting L and R onto higher powers and someone may give you a response (BTW I wasn't aware of the limitation as we have the ability to clear you L and R in the same uplink so we just assumed you would have had the corresponding downlink)
Cheers
WA
Colombo and Male now class A btwn F280-F460 so clearance not required if you are coming in from there. Establishing comms is not good enough your are supposed to get a clearance either through datalink or on HF.
I am still wondering how we knew what you were flying. An ARCW could have happenned a fair way out if you were on A594, NINOB-MERIB-QUINS-PH. If you had planned the STAR we would get the ARCW once you had passed NINOB, approx 612nm from Perth.
Were you asked to "Confirm Assigned Route" otherwise I can't think of anyway we would know that you had planned the STAR until you were within waypoint + 1.
When you say the CAA are you refering to an Australian body (maybe CASA or Airservices Australia, the CAA in Australia was split into these two seperate organisations a few years back). You shouldn't get in trouble for adding good morning onto the end of a message in Aussie airspace.
The practise of diverting around wx without clearance was probably OK when we were giving you 15min and 100nm cross track separation standards. The airlines have pushed for reduced separation in Oceanic areas and so we now have much reduced RNP separation standards. By taking unauthorised wx deviations you are increasing the risk of something going wrong. It doesn't take long to ask via datalink on most occasions we would prefer you to ask. I have passed your query about requesting L and R onto higher powers and someone may give you a response (BTW I wasn't aware of the limitation as we have the ability to clear you L and R in the same uplink so we just assumed you would have had the corresponding downlink)
Cheers
WA
Grandpa Aerotart
Sounds like all this angst is about an unexpected consequence of datalink...thank god then that my current mount don't got it
We routinely load stars just after TOPC 8-11 hrs before arrival...and only rarely need to change the RWY and star transition.
It is not bad airmanship....bad airmanship would be not amending it if/when issued something different by ATC 200 miles out and then blindly following the majenta line.
Just because 1 crew in 1000s is so lacking in airmanship is no reason to dumb down the rest of us.
In some places, like Dubai, the star is not issued until virtually at TOPD...it seems to have escaped them that we are busy at that point in the flight...not to mention tired...or that a TOPD changes by 20-30nm depending on the runway/star combination. That little fact combined with, seemingly inevitable, speed control usually means we are flying nearly the entire descent with the speed brake out at DXB I do accept that at DXB if the STAR was issued as far out as they do at somewhere like SY or LHR we would be on Muscat/Bahrain frequencies.
Experience shows that once you know what the wind is doing you generally know exactly what will follow. I am not a great fan of using RTE 2 for preloading alternative STAR transition/RWY because it requires temporarily going into HDG SEL while you sort out the correct TO waypoint and then re engaging LNAV...more button pushing when we may be less than on top of our game. When you RTE COPY, the entire route, from the point where you select RTE COPY, remains in the FMC rather than your next TO waypoint and the previous 'anchor' waypoint....meaning you could be searching through 4 or 5 LEGS pages to find the waypoint you were tracking to in RTE 1
We routinely load stars just after TOPC 8-11 hrs before arrival...and only rarely need to change the RWY and star transition.
It is not bad airmanship....bad airmanship would be not amending it if/when issued something different by ATC 200 miles out and then blindly following the majenta line.
Just because 1 crew in 1000s is so lacking in airmanship is no reason to dumb down the rest of us.
In some places, like Dubai, the star is not issued until virtually at TOPD...it seems to have escaped them that we are busy at that point in the flight...not to mention tired...or that a TOPD changes by 20-30nm depending on the runway/star combination. That little fact combined with, seemingly inevitable, speed control usually means we are flying nearly the entire descent with the speed brake out at DXB
I do accept that at DXB if the STAR was issued as far out as they do at somewhere like SY or LHR we would be on Muscat/Bahrain frequencies.Experience shows that once you know what the wind is doing you generally know exactly what will follow. I am not a great fan of using RTE 2 for preloading alternative STAR transition/RWY because it requires temporarily going into HDG SEL while you sort out the correct TO waypoint and then re engaging LNAV...more button pushing when we may be less than on top of our game. When you RTE COPY, the entire route, from the point where you select RTE COPY, remains in the FMC rather than your next TO waypoint and the previous 'anchor' waypoint....meaning you could be searching through 4 or 5 LEGS pages to find the waypoint you were tracking to in RTE 1
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 9th Oct 2006 at 05:22.
