Help needed from ATC re: STARs
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Help needed from ATC re: STARs
Hi guys,
Was wondering if any ATC out there can help with a question regarding Standard Arrival Routes selection for a learner driver.
Here goes.....
Considering the direction I am coming in from, I would select a waypoint (and include it in my flight plan) for the destination that would be the first waypoint in a STAR having a final approach to a particular runway/s.
My first question is - if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?
My second one is - If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?
And lastly - in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?
Much appreciated.
Eight Ball
Was wondering if any ATC out there can help with a question regarding Standard Arrival Routes selection for a learner driver.
Here goes.....
Considering the direction I am coming in from, I would select a waypoint (and include it in my flight plan) for the destination that would be the first waypoint in a STAR having a final approach to a particular runway/s.
My first question is - if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?
My second one is - If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?
And lastly - in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?
Much appreciated.
Eight Ball
Last edited by Eight Ball; 2nd Oct 2006 at 07:39. Reason: Couldn't make up my mind
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8 Balls - There are others who do much more of this stuff than I do - in heavies, but here's my 2 bob's worth.
STARS always seem to me to be an ATC thing. I plan direct to the aerodrome and let ATC give me a STAR if they want to (love that "Smoka transition"). Usually the same deal if they want me on the ILS.
The only time I pre-planned the ILS (for currency) they vectored me all over the sky for smooth traffic flow.
My GPS has most of the STARs pre-programmed so it is no big deal to call up the one they give, and I have Jepp Electronic Charts as well.
I think the ATCs computers let them work out who will arrive where and when and they work around that to make it all flow smoothly - which it seems to do much of the time.
I look forward to seeing what the "experts" have to say about this!
R
STARS always seem to me to be an ATC thing. I plan direct to the aerodrome and let ATC give me a STAR if they want to (love that "Smoka transition"). Usually the same deal if they want me on the ILS.
The only time I pre-planned the ILS (for currency) they vectored me all over the sky for smooth traffic flow.
My GPS has most of the STARs pre-programmed so it is no big deal to call up the one they give, and I have Jepp Electronic Charts as well.
I think the ATCs computers let them work out who will arrive where and when and they work around that to make it all flow smoothly - which it seems to do much of the time.
I look forward to seeing what the "experts" have to say about this!
R
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Considering the direction I am coming in from, I would select a waypoint (and include it in my flight plan) for the destination that would be the first waypoint in a STAR having a final approach to a particular runway/s.
My first question is - if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?
Most STARS will use the same point for either Runway, or may in fact be applicable to 2 or More Runways, so the STAR does not need to be re-issued, just the Runway. If your FMC can handle it punch in the new Runway. If it can't, or if your profile is now no good, just task for vectors for xx track miles.
My second one is - If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?
And lastly - in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?
---------
As far as STARS being an ATC thing, this is essentially true. STARS are designed to segregate ARR and DEP through LAT and VNAV requirements - also significantly reduce the amount of RT, which is a blessing when busy (for you and for ATC). Also give you accurate Track Miles for your descent planning. Although not neccessarily in YSSY where the STARS have a lot of Route Discontinuity and you get vectored to final anyway.
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RS,
Very good, and very close.
8Balls, you should plan your flight as per ERSA. The STARs are designed to link with the flight plan tracks into those aerdromes that have them.
If you don't plan correctly, the controller responsible for issuing the STAR will reclear you to the first point and then the applicable STAR.
The controller responsible for issuing the STAR depends on your level and route. For jets, this would be the enroute controller responsible for the airspace about 160 - 200NM from destination.
If a change of STAR is required, the controller controlling you at the time will advise you and ask if you can accept a new STAR. If you can't, then an ammended clearance with an expectation will be issued. E.g. "Cancel STAR, track Blaka JCW BN, expect radar vectors from JCW"
When applicable you will be given a STAR. The STAR will link to your arrival (visual approach or instrument approach). If you cannot accept a STAR, then expect an ammended clearance and radar vectoring for your approach.
Hope this helps.
Very good, and very close.
8Balls, you should plan your flight as per ERSA. The STARs are designed to link with the flight plan tracks into those aerdromes that have them.
If you don't plan correctly, the controller responsible for issuing the STAR will reclear you to the first point and then the applicable STAR.
The controller responsible for issuing the STAR depends on your level and route. For jets, this would be the enroute controller responsible for the airspace about 160 - 200NM from destination.
if there was a change of runway or inbound direction rendering my planned STAR unworkable, where and who can I get the new STAR from? Is it with Approach or something further like with Radar ?
If I did not nominate a waypoint for a STAR, will I be given one or will I be radar vectored instead for an instrument approach ?
Hope this helps.
in regards to heavies, I can only assume that they have pre-programmed their STARs into their FMC even before departure, would ATC change this for any reason ?
I heard on one occasion a QF A330 (I assume with datalink) being growled at by ATC because TAAATS had detected that the ATC cleared route no longer matches the FMS route, since the crew had "preloaded" the STAR they were expecting.
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Heavies load the STARS all the time given that there can be variations with a runway change. In fact, the heavier you are the easier it is as the runway choices are reduced [and a runway may need to be "required"; we live in a country where landing into wind takes second place to noise abatement!]
As to when, that varies. If the domestic guys are doing short sectors, they may put one in prior to departure. Long haul or otherwise, sometime in the cruise. When the clearance is given, the crew verify that the clearance in the RTE page matches the requirement. Simple.
As to the datalink A330 quote; you can't ask or link a route to ATC as they get very upset if they think you've loaded anything other than they've told you. Only in Oz [yet again] do they wait until the last minute to tell you what's happening and then feign amazement that anybody would be able to reduce workload at top-of-descent by pre-empting.
G'day
As to when, that varies. If the domestic guys are doing short sectors, they may put one in prior to departure. Long haul or otherwise, sometime in the cruise. When the clearance is given, the crew verify that the clearance in the RTE page matches the requirement. Simple.
As to the datalink A330 quote; you can't ask or link a route to ATC as they get very upset if they think you've loaded anything other than they've told you. Only in Oz [yet again] do they wait until the last minute to tell you what's happening and then feign amazement that anybody would be able to reduce workload at top-of-descent by pre-empting.
G'day
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As far as I have seen the STAR is issued at about 150-200nm - whats the problem?
Care to elaborate? Are you suggesting ATC have some way of determining what has been inputted in to the FMC?
I heard on one occasion a QF A330 (I assume with datalink) being growled at by ATC because TAAATS had detected that the ATC cleared route no longer matches the FMS route, since the crew had "preloaded" the STAR they were expecting.
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Re 'sharing the info'; the STAR is usually issued by the ATCs involved in the descent (the other ATCs have no idea what will be issued so don't), on some routes this is as close to destination at 80NM, but it is rare and the STAR issued is hardly a surprise...
Otherwise it's always by 110NM out usually a lot further out than that. The concept is you get STAR'd before Top of descent, although there are examples where this isn't possible. But that would be a secret.
ST,
The ATC said that he got a "Route Conformance Warning" from, I assume, TAAATS. The A330 then admitted they had loaded the STAR prior to them being given it.
Feather,
I think you're being a little overdramatic. Even if you were still reading the paper at 100 track miles and were then given the STAR, it's not a big deal to load it in a few seconds. I would very much doubt short-haul pilots load STARs into the acitve plan prior to takeoff: that would be bad airmanship and courting trouble, if not forbidden by SOPs. That's what the secondary flight plan is for, but before takeoff? Not worth the effort.
EightBall,
Re STARs, we don't put them in the active plan until we are given them, but they are in the database and can be retrieved and inserted into the active plan with a few keystrokes.
Especially for a lighty pilot, I wouldn't be encouraging pre-loading STARs at all. Sure as eggs he'd get distracted and end up going somewhere he wasn't supposed to.
As has already been mentioned, plan via the routes in ERSA GEN FPR. You then can't go wrong.
Are you suggesting ATC have some way of determining what has been inputted in to the FMC?
Feather,
I think you're being a little overdramatic. Even if you were still reading the paper at 100 track miles and were then given the STAR, it's not a big deal to load it in a few seconds. I would very much doubt short-haul pilots load STARs into the acitve plan prior to takeoff: that would be bad airmanship and courting trouble, if not forbidden by SOPs. That's what the secondary flight plan is for, but before takeoff? Not worth the effort.
EightBall,
Re STARs, we don't put them in the active plan until we are given them, but they are in the database and can be retrieved and inserted into the active plan with a few keystrokes.
Especially for a lighty pilot, I wouldn't be encouraging pre-loading STARs at all. Sure as eggs he'd get distracted and end up going somewhere he wasn't supposed to.
As has already been mentioned, plan via the routes in ERSA GEN FPR. You then can't go wrong.
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"Route Conformance Warning"
Tailored Arrivals is an extension to the CPDLC command set that allows ATC to send a STAR route (with vertical nav limits) directly to aircraft. The pilot then accepts, and the arrival route and level requirements are load into FMS. Has been trialled, and is progressing. Stage 2 didn't involve ATC - it was done remotely.
Yes, if you are logged on to CPDLC, ATC can see everything that is in Route 1 (Boeing) of the FMC.
Two years ago, and a thousand miles off the coast, we got a message from ATC to remove the STAR that we had inserted enroute as we hadn`t been cleared for it yet. I really wanted to tell them to eff off as this is my FMC not theirs and I will use it as I deem appropriate. Anyway, since that time I still insert the expected arival, approach and runway and nobody has told me otherwise.
I generally find in Australian Airports that the STAR clearance is delivered too late to crews to enable them to give a proper brief. Rushed briefings during descent are a hazard and a threat to air safety. If the STAR clearance arrives and is different to expected then change the FMS entries or if the FMS has a secondary/alternate Flight Plan storage and it has already been preloaded with a different runway, checked and briefed it is only a matter of activating and executing.
There is less risk loading and briefing the expected clearance than rushing briefings. I don`t feel there is a significant risk of pilots flying the wrong STAR if the clearance is different to what has been loaded. Any clearance received should be checked against the box anyway.
My two cents worth.
Two years ago, and a thousand miles off the coast, we got a message from ATC to remove the STAR that we had inserted enroute as we hadn`t been cleared for it yet. I really wanted to tell them to eff off as this is my FMC not theirs and I will use it as I deem appropriate. Anyway, since that time I still insert the expected arival, approach and runway and nobody has told me otherwise.
I generally find in Australian Airports that the STAR clearance is delivered too late to crews to enable them to give a proper brief. Rushed briefings during descent are a hazard and a threat to air safety. If the STAR clearance arrives and is different to expected then change the FMS entries or if the FMS has a secondary/alternate Flight Plan storage and it has already been preloaded with a different runway, checked and briefed it is only a matter of activating and executing.
There is less risk loading and briefing the expected clearance than rushing briefings. I don`t feel there is a significant risk of pilots flying the wrong STAR if the clearance is different to what has been loaded. Any clearance received should be checked against the box anyway.
My two cents worth.
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Anyone using CPDLC from ATC side like to confirm what Nil Defects claims?
Was news to me - I thought Route Adherance depended on ADS-C comparison to the TAAATS FDP inputted Route, i.e. independent of the FMC data?
Tailored Arrivals exception?
Was news to me - I thought Route Adherance depended on ADS-C comparison to the TAAATS FDP inputted Route, i.e. independent of the FMC data?
Tailored Arrivals exception?
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Yes, we get an ARCW - an ADS Route Conformance Warning.
The controller is supposed to query it because it differs from the cleared route. If the pilot doesn't amend the route, the alert has to be coordinated to the next sector prior to hand-off.
We see quite a few of them on acft coming from the Eastern States as pilots try to anticipate the STAR they'll receive. It isn't a problem, except that a prominent yellow line of the non-conforming route is displayed on the screen which we can't remove and it can make the screen look quite congested.
The controller is supposed to query it because it differs from the cleared route. If the pilot doesn't amend the route, the alert has to be coordinated to the next sector prior to hand-off.
We see quite a few of them on acft coming from the Eastern States as pilots try to anticipate the STAR they'll receive. It isn't a problem, except that a prominent yellow line of the non-conforming route is displayed on the screen which we can't remove and it can make the screen look quite congested.
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STARs
Guys, I absolutely take my hat off to all of you for all the info I am picking up here and the "yes and no's " to my questions. This is so informative - thanks a million.
These are things I would never learn from my books.
Looks like I am seeing different experiences and angles from both pilots and ATC officers on how they handle the STARs.
So, it is advisable not to load the STARs prior to departure for several reasons ( e.g. FMC/Datalink comparison, changes from ATC and airmanship) and only load it enroute when given. But as Nil defects has pointed out you can always load RTE 2 into the FMC if a different one is given. I guess it all depends on company SOPs or preference ?
Please continue if there are anymore as I am writing all of these down.
Pilots can fly the STARs but in most respects I don't know how ATC works and this surely gives me a picture on the controllers side too.
8 Ball
These are things I would never learn from my books.
Looks like I am seeing different experiences and angles from both pilots and ATC officers on how they handle the STARs.
So, it is advisable not to load the STARs prior to departure for several reasons ( e.g. FMC/Datalink comparison, changes from ATC and airmanship) and only load it enroute when given. But as Nil defects has pointed out you can always load RTE 2 into the FMC if a different one is given. I guess it all depends on company SOPs or preference ?
Please continue if there are anymore as I am writing all of these down.
Pilots can fly the STARs but in most respects I don't know how ATC works and this surely gives me a picture on the controllers side too.
8 Ball
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Eight ball - here's an idea - drop into your local ATC facility and ask. You said you don't know much about ATC and I'm sure it won't be an issue if you ring up and arrange a look-see at YSSY (that's where you are, yes?) Approach.
Most, if not all, ATCers are quite happy to sit down and expalin the job to people who take a genuine interest. These days, with EXTREMELY limited cross-pollenation opportunities, there is a general lack of understanding of what happens in both the cockpit and in front of the scope.
Good on you for asking the questions, and best of luck with the answers!
Cheers,
NFR.
Most, if not all, ATCers are quite happy to sit down and expalin the job to people who take a genuine interest. These days, with EXTREMELY limited cross-pollenation opportunities, there is a general lack of understanding of what happens in both the cockpit and in front of the scope.
Good on you for asking the questions, and best of luck with the answers!
Cheers,
NFR.
Nunc est bibendum
It also meant that I had more time to concentrate on flying the aircraft at a busy time (like at top of descent in an aircraft that had a nasty habit of charging the barbers pole) and more time to just confirm the (probably) briefed clearance. It also enabled me to give the company a highly accurate ETA based on the most recent knowledge which was often important when the company was juggling bays, aircraft and other associated delays. So is it bad airmanship to enable yourself more time in a busy phase of flight by doing something earlier and ensuring that you have a plan in place to not stuff it up?
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Bloggs, how about we just agree to differ.
"Airmanship" I've always taken to be aviation common sense. This involves a safe operation and being practical. Taking one's cue from other threads, the ** STAR ** arrived in this country with great fanfare and drama. Some folks had been flying them for quite a while elsewhere.
New/modified SOP's now require the PF and PNF to be in their seats for descent, a descent checklist read and briefing done. You're doing around 8nm/min, so the STAR issued at 150nm gives you [arguably] 6.25 minutes to load, check, brief and do the checklist, even if the TOD is at 100nm. Let's not even consider the ATC inspired speed limit given just prior to TOD which pulls the profile back outside the 100nm.
So my take on "airmanship" is to have the most probable STAR loaded and ready to run with the show sorted. Although my hit rate is less than Keg's due to the nature of my flying, the prediction rate is right up there.
Thus, let's agree to differ and all be one happy family.
G'day
"Airmanship" I've always taken to be aviation common sense. This involves a safe operation and being practical. Taking one's cue from other threads, the ** STAR ** arrived in this country with great fanfare and drama. Some folks had been flying them for quite a while elsewhere.
New/modified SOP's now require the PF and PNF to be in their seats for descent, a descent checklist read and briefing done. You're doing around 8nm/min, so the STAR issued at 150nm gives you [arguably] 6.25 minutes to load, check, brief and do the checklist, even if the TOD is at 100nm. Let's not even consider the ATC inspired speed limit given just prior to TOD which pulls the profile back outside the 100nm.
So my take on "airmanship" is to have the most probable STAR loaded and ready to run with the show sorted. Although my hit rate is less than Keg's due to the nature of my flying, the prediction rate is right up there.
Thus, let's agree to differ and all be one happy family.
G'day
Capt Bloggs,
We generally always load the full Star before departure. That is the company standard. You load what you expect to get. You can always change it if cleared differently. (Having said that, our filed ATC plan also includes the expected STAR. This is only recently though.)
I like doing it because it gives a very accurate fuel over destination.
I think to call it poor airmanship is a little extreme given that it seems quite the norm in some other airlines.
In fact, mostly we load the STAR for the next sector in the secondary. Our turn-arounds are very tight and we do as much as we can on the way there. On landing we just activate secondary. Everything is there, perf, winds, etc etc. It gives a very accurate trip fuel, which is useful for refuelling (which we do ourselves). This is standard procedure.
We generally always load the full Star before departure. That is the company standard. You load what you expect to get. You can always change it if cleared differently. (Having said that, our filed ATC plan also includes the expected STAR. This is only recently though.)
I like doing it because it gives a very accurate fuel over destination.
I think to call it poor airmanship is a little extreme given that it seems quite the norm in some other airlines.
In fact, mostly we load the STAR for the next sector in the secondary. Our turn-arounds are very tight and we do as much as we can on the way there. On landing we just activate secondary. Everything is there, perf, winds, etc etc. It gives a very accurate trip fuel, which is useful for refuelling (which we do ourselves). This is standard procedure.
Last edited by kellykelpie; 3rd Oct 2006 at 11:46. Reason: to get capt bloggs out of the dark ages
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D6
Last edited by DeltaSix; 3rd Oct 2006 at 22:54. Reason: Spelling of ASIC - originally said ImSIC