Instructor jobs??
Capt Wingdrop.
I'm a realist, not living in a fools paradise. Consider this:
1. Instructors paid anything from $25 to $35 a FLYING hour....not the award ,no flying no pay, duties include cleaning toilets, vacuuming offices,cleaning the kitchen.
2. Pilots employed as contractors, paid well below the award, not paid super, no work insurance so that if you damage an aircraft you pay, you land in farmland you compensate the farmer, you pay your own tax from a salary which is already well below the award.
3. To many instructors at flying schools so that any flying is rationed to the many, resulting in not much flying for the individual and resulting in a low salary.
4. Airline opportunities limited, pay for your own endorsement A320, B737NG about 40K. It's only a matter of time you will have to pay for line training. Its happening in the UK and Europe, EAGLE JET charge about 30K EUROS for 300 hours line training.
5. Airline flying in the US is in a worse predicament. Most airlines are either in Chapter11 or just out of Chapter11. salaries have plumetted.
6. Airlines in Asia.........well unless your a Capt you will be on a local contract, however there are exceptions......not many.
7. Airlines in South America, well I don't fly there so I can't really comment, needless to say you must speak Spanish.
Now Wingdrop try a rebuttal to those FACTS.
1. Instructors paid anything from $25 to $35 a FLYING hour....not the award ,no flying no pay, duties include cleaning toilets, vacuuming offices,cleaning the kitchen.
2. Pilots employed as contractors, paid well below the award, not paid super, no work insurance so that if you damage an aircraft you pay, you land in farmland you compensate the farmer, you pay your own tax from a salary which is already well below the award.
3. To many instructors at flying schools so that any flying is rationed to the many, resulting in not much flying for the individual and resulting in a low salary.
4. Airline opportunities limited, pay for your own endorsement A320, B737NG about 40K. It's only a matter of time you will have to pay for line training. Its happening in the UK and Europe, EAGLE JET charge about 30K EUROS for 300 hours line training.
5. Airline flying in the US is in a worse predicament. Most airlines are either in Chapter11 or just out of Chapter11. salaries have plumetted.
6. Airlines in Asia.........well unless your a Capt you will be on a local contract, however there are exceptions......not many.
7. Airlines in South America, well I don't fly there so I can't really comment, needless to say you must speak Spanish.
Now Wingdrop try a rebuttal to those FACTS.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contract/ GA Award.
How come there is a GA Award and yet you can be contracted to be paid well below the Award and its conditions? What really bothers me is the lack of work insurance, what happens if you have an engine failure and damage is done to property, who pays? Why isnt super paid? I would have thought it was in the governments interest to ensure that all employees were paid super.
I don't understand how the AFAP can allow this to occur and yet expect pilots to join the union?
I don't understand how the AFAP can allow this to occur and yet expect pilots to join the union?
union membership
because perhaps if you guys joined the union it would be able to represent you. The union will represent you and you are entitled to representation but only from the time you are a member.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Such negativity.
And by such "experts".
Pinns84, Welcome to D&G, where the bitter and twisted dwell.
I'm surprised that no-one so far has mentioned China Southern or Singapore flying college in W.A. They take G3 instructors (once you've got 100 instructing hours) and pay them a full-time wage. I've got 7 instructor mates who made the move from MB to PJT and they're all loving it! They get between 35 and 45k p.a (depending on location and whether Twin approved or not) and plenty of hours.
Pinns84, do a Pprune search for "China Southern" in D&G. Plenty of comments there (good and bad). When I was visiting over there in January this year, I was told that both China Southern and Singapore FC were looking to increase their student intakes and were trying to put even more through (which leads to requiring more instructors).
The net result of that is that in places like Moorabbin there is now a shortage of instructors.
So, when MBA747 quotes as FACTS:
Okay, point 1 does occur, but is becoming less common, as Instructors ARE going west once they've got 100 hours. Schools in MB are now beginning to realise that they have to pay proper wages if they want to remain viable.
Point 2 is (as described) is pure fantasy! I'm sure there are plenty of IWA's out there that have some of the points mentioned, but not all in one (as your point implies). Please, if anyone has signed IWA's with those conditions, seek legal advice! Or look elsewhere. There are lots of schools with vacancies for instructors.
Point 3 DID occur, and still does at schools at some of the busier training airports. However, as for Point 1, all the instructors I know at MB and EN are very busy, due to the shortage at their school.
But wait, there's more...
Airline opportunities are expanding. There's more movement up top than there has been since 2001. Many places that do charter, Bank runs and RPT in pistons are now having difficulty keeping drivers, as they're moving up to bigger things. And just b/c EAGLE JET is charging for line training doesn't mean that it will expand to the rest of the UK/Europe industry or that "it's a matter of time before it happens here".
And still more...
Great FACTS, but US/Asia/Sth America airline issues probably aren't that relevant to getting an instructor rating in OZ. (And they speak Portugese in Brazil 
)
And one more...
MBA747, isn't your daugher a flying instructor? Did you get around to buying her those 50 hours multi so that she could get her Twin Training approval? (Another thread). So maybe YOUR agenda is to discourage people joining GA to give your daughter a better chance with less competition????
(It would explain your negative attitude)
P.S Apologies Capt. Wingdrop for rebutting before you could.
Pinns84, Welcome to D&G, where the bitter and twisted dwell.
I'm surprised that no-one so far has mentioned China Southern or Singapore flying college in W.A. They take G3 instructors (once you've got 100 instructing hours) and pay them a full-time wage. I've got 7 instructor mates who made the move from MB to PJT and they're all loving it! They get between 35 and 45k p.a (depending on location and whether Twin approved or not) and plenty of hours.
Pinns84, do a Pprune search for "China Southern" in D&G. Plenty of comments there (good and bad). When I was visiting over there in January this year, I was told that both China Southern and Singapore FC were looking to increase their student intakes and were trying to put even more through (which leads to requiring more instructors).
The net result of that is that in places like Moorabbin there is now a shortage of instructors.
So, when MBA747 quotes as FACTS:
1. Instructors paid anything from $25 to $35 a FLYING hour....not the award ,no flying no pay, duties include cleaning toilets, vacuuming offices,cleaning the kitchen.
2. Pilots employed as contractors, paid well below the award, not paid super, no work insurance so that if you damage an aircraft you pay, you land in farmland you compensate the farmer, you pay your own tax from a salary which is already well below the award.
3. To many instructors at flying schools so that any flying is rationed to the many, resulting in not much flying for the individual and resulting in a low salary.
2. Pilots employed as contractors, paid well below the award, not paid super, no work insurance so that if you damage an aircraft you pay, you land in farmland you compensate the farmer, you pay your own tax from a salary which is already well below the award.
3. To many instructors at flying schools so that any flying is rationed to the many, resulting in not much flying for the individual and resulting in a low salary.
Point 2 is (as described) is pure fantasy! I'm sure there are plenty of IWA's out there that have some of the points mentioned, but not all in one (as your point implies). Please, if anyone has signed IWA's with those conditions, seek legal advice! Or look elsewhere. There are lots of schools with vacancies for instructors.
Point 3 DID occur, and still does at schools at some of the busier training airports. However, as for Point 1, all the instructors I know at MB and EN are very busy, due to the shortage at their school.
But wait, there's more...
4. Airline opportunities limited, pay for your own endorsement A320, B737NG about 40K. It's only a matter of time you will have to pay for line training. Its happening in the UK and Europe, EAGLE JET charge about 30K EUROS for 300 hours line training.
And still more...
5. Airline flying in the US is in a worse predicament. Most airlines are either in Chapter11 or just out of Chapter11. salaries have plumetted.
6. Airlines in Asia.........well unless your a Capt you will be on a local contract, however there are exceptions......not many.
7. Airlines in South America, well I don't fly there so I can't really comment, needless to say you must speak Spanish.
6. Airlines in Asia.........well unless your a Capt you will be on a local contract, however there are exceptions......not many.
7. Airlines in South America, well I don't fly there so I can't really comment, needless to say you must speak Spanish.
) And one more...
pinns84, just remember some people who post here have their own agendas. There are pilots here pushing the flying career in the hope to attract people like you so that they can build hours at your expense. It's a tough, selfish business.
(It would explain your negative attitude)
P.S Apologies Capt. Wingdrop for rebutting before you could.
Rising cost of fuel, old airframes, lack of movement in the training area, Government Red Tape, Old Mindsets running the business. All these contribute to the low wage and crap conditions that can be found at some flying schools and charter companies. To pay you more they would have to charge the customer more, for some this would mean they can't afford the training and so don't do it = 1 less student. Then you can complain that there aren’t as many students at your school because the boss charges too much, therefore you get less flying. And so on and so forth. There is more to it then some pilots think. Not all Aviation Business owners are rolling in a mountain of cash.
It is not an easy road with easy pickings. If your union pipes up and sues the company guess what happens to that company… that’s right they close down and EVERY one looses their job (note: I’m not to sure how this works in the Airlines…but we won’t go there).
I’m all for getting paid the award but you have to understand that from where you sit as a J3 instructor you don’t have the whole story. Remember 1 fulltime instructor on the award is equal to 3 part time instructors. That’s 2 less jobs for the wannabees.
Stands back and awaits the booting
It is not an easy road with easy pickings. If your union pipes up and sues the company guess what happens to that company… that’s right they close down and EVERY one looses their job (note: I’m not to sure how this works in the Airlines…but we won’t go there).
I’m all for getting paid the award but you have to understand that from where you sit as a J3 instructor you don’t have the whole story. Remember 1 fulltime instructor on the award is equal to 3 part time instructors. That’s 2 less jobs for the wannabees.
Stands back and awaits the booting
Sykes.
!. So how many instructors can the west take? you mention 2 schools wow.
2. On each point you say it Does or Did occur or does not apply. Well it still does occur and unless you want to just live in Oz and live in hope it would not apply to you.
3. My daughter is an instructor so I am well aware of what is going on. She is young with a Science Degree with parents being able to afford to buy the 50 hours twin, Type Rating and If I have too line Training, can you compete with that? She is rather fortunate and the only reason she is being sponsored is that she has a backup qualification. In addition she was born in Europe and her mother is American, so do I have to point out she qualifies for a EU passport and if necessary can obtain a Green Card.
4. Now if you have those credentials and back up only then competition is a consideration.
2. On each point you say it Does or Did occur or does not apply. Well it still does occur and unless you want to just live in Oz and live in hope it would not apply to you.
3. My daughter is an instructor so I am well aware of what is going on. She is young with a Science Degree with parents being able to afford to buy the 50 hours twin, Type Rating and If I have too line Training, can you compete with that? She is rather fortunate and the only reason she is being sponsored is that she has a backup qualification. In addition she was born in Europe and her mother is American, so do I have to point out she qualifies for a EU passport and if necessary can obtain a Green Card.
4. Now if you have those credentials and back up only then competition is a consideration.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Incipient spin
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MBA747
If your daughter is chasing 50 hours twin to give multi engine training she must enjoy her instructing. If she was doing it just to get into the airlines wouldn't she be better off up north somewhere?
If she does love her instructing I've got the utmost respect for her. I'm in the same boat - I love my right hand seat job - and it's great to see others who really enjoy their profession. Sure the money ain't great, but I see no reason in destroying the hopes of a potential instructor. We have no idea of his/her goals or ambitions, so let's not totally destroy them.
Your daughter sounds well set up, which is great, but your post seems to imply she's much more than we could ever hope to achieve. I really hope I've read the post incorrectly...
If she does love her instructing I've got the utmost respect for her. I'm in the same boat - I love my right hand seat job - and it's great to see others who really enjoy their profession. Sure the money ain't great, but I see no reason in destroying the hopes of a potential instructor. We have no idea of his/her goals or ambitions, so let's not totally destroy them.
Your daughter sounds well set up, which is great, but your post seems to imply she's much more than we could ever hope to achieve. I really hope I've read the post incorrectly...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wales
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the replys folks. A lot of different opinions which is what i expected. I'm 21 and am half way through an Aviation degree at leeds uni and cant decide how far i want to take the flying. I have been flying for a year and know enough that i want to do a lot of it and sure as hell dont ever want to stop. At the moment I can strongly considering a career in GA and not going as far as airlines 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(Sorry, I've been away for a bit)
MBA747,
Last week speaking to my mates over in W.A. and getting the vibe at Jandakot...
Sure ONLY two schools, but Singapore has around 30 instructors with 200 students at any one time. China southern has around 50 instructors (at Jandakot, not sure about Merriden) and China Southern is having difficulty finding instructors to meet their GROWING demands for more. On top of that, there are schools at EN and MB with contracts to instruct China Eastern pilots. They are also looking for more instructors.
On the points that I raised: Sure, I agree with you that some of the shonky practices are still going on. Where we differ is that I can see some
improvement in instructor Pay and Conditions, where you seem to insist that not only are Pay and conditions as bad as they were 2 years ago, but that they wont improve.
I don't think that I've ever been in competition with your daughter. (But I could match most of what you've offered if that makes you feel any better
)
Sykes!
MBA747,
Last week speaking to my mates over in W.A. and getting the vibe at Jandakot...
Sure ONLY two schools, but Singapore has around 30 instructors with 200 students at any one time. China southern has around 50 instructors (at Jandakot, not sure about Merriden) and China Southern is having difficulty finding instructors to meet their GROWING demands for more. On top of that, there are schools at EN and MB with contracts to instruct China Eastern pilots. They are also looking for more instructors.
On the points that I raised: Sure, I agree with you that some of the shonky practices are still going on. Where we differ is that I can see some
improvement in instructor Pay and Conditions, where you seem to insist that not only are Pay and conditions as bad as they were 2 years ago, but that they wont improve.
I don't think that I've ever been in competition with your daughter. (But I could match most of what you've offered if that makes you feel any better
)Sykes!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: darwin
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pay
if ya paid the guys more who will pump my gas an pour my beer?:
The guys should be lucky for a job flying, just having paid for an instructors ticket should not mean life is going to be easy.
But for those who work hard an study hard the lite at the end of the tunnel is alot closer to the one who sits in the dark bitching about pay.
The guys should be lucky for a job flying, just having paid for an instructors ticket should not mean life is going to be easy.
But for those who work hard an study hard the lite at the end of the tunnel is alot closer to the one who sits in the dark bitching about pay.
Sykes.
I'm back long trip, unfortunately couldn't respond to your distorted post due to being called away at short notice.
1. The first three points taken together are not necessarily applied in any one situation which you for your own reasons imply. Each point posted earlier occurs monotonously, however any two points taken together DO apply.( Re points 1,2 & 3 )
2. Point 4 regarding endorsements and ICUS. This actually started in the US and the UK followed and now seems to have caught on world wide however there are exceptions. In Aust. Virgin introduced the pay for your own endorsement now followed by J*. Then GA gets in on the act, with pilots paying upto $100 ICUS to fly a 30 year old light twin.
3. Point 7, a small minority actually speak English however,unless you can speak their language the chance of you being employed is remote.
4." Great FACTS, but US/Asia/Sth America airline issues probably aren't that relevant to getting an instructor rating in OZ"..... Well Sykes are you telling me trainees in their 20's willingly spend around at least 70K just to instruct or do you think their are more ambitous and want an airline career in the hope of some stability and financial reward. There are few and I mean very few career instructors and even out of those, a number would not make airlines anyway and they accept that.
5.As to SIA Flying College the increase in cadets has occurred inthe last 6 months. They also offer career advancement, so don't expect too much movement there. China Southern the older instructors will stay the younger will move on in hope.
Now regarding working conditions, things are bad & getting worse. In my day everybody was paid the award. Now its open to abuse with fulltime casual in vogue. Unless one is a GR.1 or a GR.2 with training approval, you are one of the many on casual (get paid when you fly).....no students, weather is unsuitable, a/c is u/s, too many instructors so flying is rationed......the result a salary below the bread line. The point being unless you have a backup qualification, well of parents who can give you financial support when required or have great contacts in the industry it's a hard slog, which would most most likely lead to a poor life style and despair. Now how many trainees are in that category???
Sure people do make it but the die is loaded against you.
'topaharley' best of luck, you may be better of becoming a courier on your bike.
1. The first three points taken together are not necessarily applied in any one situation which you for your own reasons imply. Each point posted earlier occurs monotonously, however any two points taken together DO apply.( Re points 1,2 & 3 )
2. Point 4 regarding endorsements and ICUS. This actually started in the US and the UK followed and now seems to have caught on world wide however there are exceptions. In Aust. Virgin introduced the pay for your own endorsement now followed by J*. Then GA gets in on the act, with pilots paying upto $100 ICUS to fly a 30 year old light twin.
3. Point 7, a small minority actually speak English however,unless you can speak their language the chance of you being employed is remote.
4." Great FACTS, but US/Asia/Sth America airline issues probably aren't that relevant to getting an instructor rating in OZ"..... Well Sykes are you telling me trainees in their 20's willingly spend around at least 70K just to instruct or do you think their are more ambitous and want an airline career in the hope of some stability and financial reward. There are few and I mean very few career instructors and even out of those, a number would not make airlines anyway and they accept that.
5.As to SIA Flying College the increase in cadets has occurred inthe last 6 months. They also offer career advancement, so don't expect too much movement there. China Southern the older instructors will stay the younger will move on in hope.
Now regarding working conditions, things are bad & getting worse. In my day everybody was paid the award. Now its open to abuse with fulltime casual in vogue. Unless one is a GR.1 or a GR.2 with training approval, you are one of the many on casual (get paid when you fly).....no students, weather is unsuitable, a/c is u/s, too many instructors so flying is rationed......the result a salary below the bread line. The point being unless you have a backup qualification, well of parents who can give you financial support when required or have great contacts in the industry it's a hard slog, which would most most likely lead to a poor life style and despair. Now how many trainees are in that category???
Sure people do make it but the die is loaded against you.
'topaharley' best of luck, you may be better of becoming a courier on your bike.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've had enough...
MBA747,
I guess it's fair to say that you and I are looking at the same industry and see two fairly different beasts.
I apologise if my (fairly positive) posts on this topic are viewed by you as "distorted".
I guess I just see the glass as being half full, and not half empty.
I'm a little busy right now, and don't have the time to go through each post and nit-pick about who wrote what, etc. I'll leave that to you.
If you want to continue this by PM, fine. Otherwise Cheers.
I guess it's fair to say that you and I are looking at the same industry and see two fairly different beasts.
I apologise if my (fairly positive) posts on this topic are viewed by you as "distorted".
I guess I just see the glass as being half full, and not half empty.
I'm a little busy right now, and don't have the time to go through each post and nit-pick about who wrote what, etc. I'll leave that to you.
If you want to continue this by PM, fine. Otherwise Cheers.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well written responce GLENB
I think the thing to do is get your instructing ticket, get into the instructing workforce. Do the hard yards, do right by the company you work for, even if you dont get the same. After all, you for the school because of its AOC, students fly with you because they respect your out look on instructing, and how well you teach them.
Main thing is keep your head up and dont let others cut your dreams down!
I think the thing to do is get your instructing ticket, get into the instructing workforce. Do the hard yards, do right by the company you work for, even if you dont get the same. After all, you for the school because of its AOC, students fly with you because they respect your out look on instructing, and how well you teach them.
Main thing is keep your head up and dont let others cut your dreams down!
