"Leaving" or "Left" Altitudes (ATC'ers pls)
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"Yes.
It is just so hard to infer that if someone reports "approaching six thousand" he must have "left five thousand", (or seven thousand if going the other way).
Or do you really separate aircraft in one hundred foot increments?"
It's not hard to infer, just incorrect, and hence dangerous.
It is just so hard to infer that if someone reports "approaching six thousand" he must have "left five thousand", (or seven thousand if going the other way).
Or do you really separate aircraft in one hundred foot increments?"
It's not hard to infer, just incorrect, and hence dangerous.
Hello gentlemen why don’t you just encourage CASA to join the rest of the world and conform to standard ICAO procedures.
Also there seems to be a slight aversion to be negative to your national carrier QANTAS, all I can say here is its very hard to use different calls in every different countries airspace you fly through, so I would suspect QANTAS just found it easier to comply with ICAO.
Also just because CASA has always done it a certain way, dosnt mean they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Your AIP can be changed the world wont end.
Also there seems to be a slight aversion to be negative to your national carrier QANTAS, all I can say here is its very hard to use different calls in every different countries airspace you fly through, so I would suspect QANTAS just found it easier to comply with ICAO.
Also just because CASA has always done it a certain way, dosnt mean they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Your AIP can be changed the world wont end.
Grandpa Aerotart
No-one else complies with ICAO why should Australia...every country has its differences from ICAO including UK, US...China and Russia are metric..that ICAO?
In Australia read the AIP and comply with that...not hard really. If you fly long haul you soon pick up the little local differences around the world and modify your calls as necesary.
If more people read the AIP radio phraseology section there would be about a 30% reduction in words used in general...particularly on read backs...you don't need to read back EVERYTHING the ATCO says to you!!!
In Australia read the AIP and comply with that...not hard really. If you fly long haul you soon pick up the little local differences around the world and modify your calls as necesary.
If more people read the AIP radio phraseology section there would be about a 30% reduction in words used in general...particularly on read backs...you don't need to read back EVERYTHING the ATCO says to you!!!
Bottums Up
But Chuckles, if ya don't read back everything the controller says, even "copied no IFR traffic" 
, how will you know you've read back all the required bits? 
, how will you know you've read back all the required bits?
Scurvy,
When I learnt to fly, "level" meant one of the assignable levels listed in the book eg whole thousands or perhaps whole 500s.
So if I'm passing 5300 on descent and you ask "report present level" or for that matter "report last vacated level" I'm going to say "Left 6000".
When we ask present level...............WE WANT THE LEVEL LEFT i.e. "......... left five thousand three hundred"
So if I'm passing 5300 on descent and you ask "report present level" or for that matter "report last vacated level" I'm going to say "Left 6000".
Grandpa Aerotart
Clarry...was justing chatting about this very thing last week over multitudinous rums with a good mate...who happens to be No 2 man in C&Ting on the 717s...he been verry busy training all our NJS chums in fact.
The classic is "XYX call departures now 124.7"....Call departures now 124.7 XYZ" arrrrggghhhh
One part of clearance delivery/readback practice in Australia that is a little bemusing is the long winded departure clearances which include SID, subsequent tracking, an altitude and transponder code.
In the UK, ME etc there is a altitude restriction on the SID...6000' on the Dover 5F at LHR for instance...so when you call London Clearance delivery the just respond with "Cleared destination via Dover 5 fox, squawk 2576"..."Dover 5 foxtrot, 2576 XYZ". Clearance above 6000, traffic permitting, will only happen after contacting departures in the later stages of the noise abate procedure. They also have this strange thing about calling "Fully ready" which bemused me until I heard last week some dill with a heavy accent asking for pushback...and then the aircraft on the next aerobridge pipes up with "He doesn't have a tug and we do so can we push back?" ".......ah..heavily accented dill do you have a tug...are you fully ready for push?" "....er...london ground heavil accented dill...no...we'd like to hold position until we get a tug"
So ATC can we have simpliied departure clearances like that in SY? It works in busy places.
The classic is "XYX call departures now 124.7"....Call departures now 124.7 XYZ" arrrrggghhhh
One part of clearance delivery/readback practice in Australia that is a little bemusing is the long winded departure clearances which include SID, subsequent tracking, an altitude and transponder code.
In the UK, ME etc there is a altitude restriction on the SID...6000' on the Dover 5F at LHR for instance...so when you call London Clearance delivery the just respond with "Cleared destination via Dover 5 fox, squawk 2576"..."Dover 5 foxtrot, 2576 XYZ". Clearance above 6000, traffic permitting, will only happen after contacting departures in the later stages of the noise abate procedure. They also have this strange thing about calling "Fully ready" which bemused me until I heard last week some dill with a heavy accent asking for pushback...and then the aircraft on the next aerobridge pipes up with "He doesn't have a tug and we do so can we push back?" ".......ah..heavily accented dill do you have a tug...are you fully ready for push?" "....er...london ground heavil accented dill...no...we'd like to hold position until we get a tug"
So ATC can we have simpliied departure clearances like that in SY? It works in busy places.
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So if I'm passing 5300 on descent and you ask "report present level" or for that matter "report last vacated level" I'm going to say "Left 6000".
Your response should be "passing 5300" It is often best not to second guess what the controller is asking you that info for.... should be a case of providing a simple reply to a simple question....No?
Remember in a radar environment the checking of such is necessary for any number of reasons including verification of your mode C.
Are you more interested in playing with the words in the book or giving the controller some meaningful information??
As for "approaching 6000"... you have more than likely been doing that since you left FL390....! Useless, unless you are really approaching 6000 and want further - but I believe there are better words to use in such circumstances which may just make your intent clearer!
Much of this discussion comes from one's interpretation on what the other man means or did he say what I said stuff.... again it comes back to training and how some of our documents are written.
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Jeppesen
Air Traffic Control (page AU-705)
DESCENT AND ENTRY
1.9.1.4
eg: "MELBOURNE CENTER (CALL-SIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO"
Looks to me that they want us to say LEAVING not LEFT.
Air Traffic Control (page AU-705)
DESCENT AND ENTRY
1.9.1.4
eg: "MELBOURNE CENTER (CALL-SIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO"
Looks to me that they want us to say LEAVING not LEFT.
Triadic,
I beg to differ. I while ago, what I said above were the rules. It's just that it's disappeared out of AIP with no guidance at all as to what to say now, hence all the confusion. I never been chipped for giving my last passed ATC-assignable level. "Report Present Level" is used to allow another aircraft to be cleared closer to you, and by reporting your actual level they have to do more mental calculations to work out the assignable level for the other aircraft. Hence they don't want "approaching" as you rightly say, bit IMO, they likelwise don't want "5,300".
If controllers want my actual, precise level (only for a altimeter check), they always say "Report Level/Altitude passing" or "verify present level".
Standing by to be shot down in flames!
Of course, all this nonsense could easily be fixed by some clarifications of R/T procedures which suffered when AIP was butchered by office boffins into ICAO R/T and has not recovered.
For example, what's the correct call to a radar Approach facility on descent?
"On top"? 
I beg to differ. I while ago, what I said above were the rules. It's just that it's disappeared out of AIP with no guidance at all as to what to say now, hence all the confusion. I never been chipped for giving my last passed ATC-assignable level. "Report Present Level" is used to allow another aircraft to be cleared closer to you, and by reporting your actual level they have to do more mental calculations to work out the assignable level for the other aircraft. Hence they don't want "approaching" as you rightly say, bit IMO, they likelwise don't want "5,300".
If controllers want my actual, precise level (only for a altimeter check), they always say "Report Level/Altitude passing" or "verify present level".
Standing by to be shot down in flames!
Of course, all this nonsense could easily be fixed by some clarifications of R/T procedures which suffered when AIP was butchered by office boffins into ICAO R/T and has not recovered.
For example, what's the correct call to a radar Approach facility on descent?
"On top"?
Props,
I wasn't referring to that call.
But now you come to mention it, the change to it was a ballsup. Even after one of my compatriots suggested they change it from the first totally confusing text, they still messed it up. Perhaps after reading this thread they will change it to what it should be: "Left FL290".
I wasn't referring to that call.
But now you come to mention it, the change to it was a ballsup. Even after one of my compatriots suggested they change it from the first totally confusing text, they still messed it up. Perhaps after reading this thread they will change it to what it should be: "Left FL290".
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maaaaaaaaaaaate!!...who,s turn is it to change the water in the "bong " pipe....whilst your at it grab a tinnie for me as well ....whew!..piri
I'll go with this:
If I need you to within the nearest hundred feet (checking Mode C) I'll ask: "verify level"
If I need to know your level for any other reason (separation/level assignment) it's "Report present level"
and you only report the last level left to the the nearest 500ft
Carry on all!!
If I need you to within the nearest hundred feet (checking Mode C) I'll ask: "verify level"
If I need to know your level for any other reason (separation/level assignment) it's "Report present level"
and you only report the last level left to the the nearest 500ft
Carry on all!!
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OK while we are at it, how about reports of change of levels while in controlled and more importantly in radar identified space.
As per the book:
a. when an aircraft has left a level at which level flight has been conducted in the course of a climb, cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report.
a. and b. (above) are from the non controlled airspace pages.
Does the same hold true for changes in level in a radar situation?
If so where is the reg. for it?
As per the book:
a. when an aircraft has left a level at which level flight has been conducted in the course of a climb, cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report.
a. and b. (above) are from the non controlled airspace pages.
Does the same hold true for changes in level in a radar situation?
If so where is the reg. for it?
Last edited by maxgrad; 27th Sep 2005 at 03:21.
"Left" vs "leaving" - there seems to be conflicting advice in WWT (AU) and AIP, "leaving" makes much more sense to me as cannot be confused with a direction of turn (ie left or right). Ambiguity is indeed the enemy!
Readbacks - please everyone learn what needs to be readback - it's in the AIP and quite clear. A lot of people read back way too much.
Contacting approach - you can append "visual" if you reckon you can make a visual approach. If you are "in cloud" or "on top", then you do NOT have tell anyone (and everyone) about it. Again quite clearly set out in the AIP.
My other gripe is with people that say "Taxies this time" or "approaches 5000" or "maintains FL140" - please guys, that is not even proper English, let alone to be found anywhere in the AIP or WWT, you are "taxying", "approaching" or "maintaining".
OK - rant over.
Readbacks - please everyone learn what needs to be readback - it's in the AIP and quite clear. A lot of people read back way too much.
Contacting approach - you can append "visual" if you reckon you can make a visual approach. If you are "in cloud" or "on top", then you do NOT have tell anyone (and everyone) about it. Again quite clearly set out in the AIP.
My other gripe is with people that say "Taxies this time" or "approaches 5000" or "maintains FL140" - please guys, that is not even proper English, let alone to be found anywhere in the AIP or WWT, you are "taxying", "approaching" or "maintaining".
OK - rant over.
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Give me your altitude/flight level to within 100 ft every time, as triadic wrote. No matter what phraseology you use, I want accuracy every time because I base separation, particularly in procedural airspace or in the case of mode C failure, on an accurate altitude. Why? Because we assume that, when you are within 300 ft of a level(200ft in RVSM airspace), you are at a level separated from other levels. In the case of a climbing or descending aircraft, the nearest or best 1000 ft level doesn't cut it for me. There's also the small matter of 500ft separation in some airspace where we need the most accurate level you can give.
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When someone is promoted to Big Manager in that certain australian airline, they automatically become the worlds expert on all things aviation.
So they tell all the good little Boys and Girls who fly their aircraft to say "leaving" not "left."
Those with a brain ignore bullsh*t when they hear it. The other good boys and girls do as they are told. It is a diverse group of people. But there is some intelligent life left in the organisation.
They are the ones who just get on with it and look after the important stuff. Rivetting subject this.Lets get a life people.
So they tell all the good little Boys and Girls who fly their aircraft to say "leaving" not "left."
Those with a brain ignore bullsh*t when they hear it. The other good boys and girls do as they are told. It is a diverse group of people. But there is some intelligent life left in the organisation.
They are the ones who just get on with it and look after the important stuff. Rivetting subject this.Lets get a life people.