"Leaving" or "Left" Altitudes (ATC'ers pls)
Bottums Up
Bloggs comes to a halt behind another aircraft and calls, "ready in turn". Why? Does s/he think the other aircraft is going to be told to get outa the way? Does Bloggs believe s/he's going to be cleared for takeoff and then have to taxi around the aircraft in front????
It's a bit like becoming ready for takeoff whilst backtracking the runway. Our erstwhile Bloggs calls, "ready on line up".
How does the man in the tower interpret this? Does he think,
Surely when ready, one calls ready, then the man in the tower knows that Bloggs is ready and can fit him into the sequence.
It's a bit like becoming ready for takeoff whilst backtracking the runway. Our erstwhile Bloggs calls, "ready on line up".
How does the man in the tower interpret this? Does he think,
- Bloggs must think I'm stupid and that I'm gonna clear him for takeoff in the wrong direction, with only 200m of runway left.
- Hmm, is he ready now? Will he be ready on line up, or does he just expect to be ready on line up??
Surely when ready, one calls ready, then the man in the tower knows that Bloggs is ready and can fit him into the sequence.
Easy when ticking a strip, but not so for TAAATS when you need to click the level and then check it was the right callsign. Have been a number of incidents where this 'wrong way round' RT has been a contributing factor (me included).
When asked for, say, a DME distance or level passing or similar, especially if there is another aircraft involved, I always reply with my callsign first then the info asked-for. It has never made sense to me that an aircraft would rabbit on giving all this info with the controller scratching his/her head wondering who's speaking until he/she finally hears the callsign at the end.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 12th Sep 2006 at 11:10. Reason: Where's that spellchecka?!
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Bloggsy,
The correct RT is, I believe:
ATC - ABC descend to 5000
ABC - 5000 ABC
Hence my above comments that callsign last can lead to errors in the TAAATS environment. Pop into a centre/approach cell and ask them to show you what I mean.
Cheers,
NFR.
The correct RT is, I believe:
ATC - ABC descend to 5000
ABC - 5000 ABC
Hence my above comments that callsign last can lead to errors in the TAAATS environment. Pop into a centre/approach cell and ask them to show you what I mean.
Cheers,
NFR.
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I.C.A.O. Vs "Phraseology,Phonetics,Vernacular"
I have been watching this thread for some time:
As one that learnt to fly in NZ, and was taught "thou shalt only use standard Phraseology".
BUT after working all over this Sphere, I have found it does not always hold true.
Even more important than using correct phraseology, is the need to not only be understood, but to understand, That is your RESPONSIBILITY FOREMOST, if out side of CTA, eg: decsending A/C crossing tracks outside of CTA, you ( We, I ) will often have to work things out between your selves, if the other crew suffers from "PPV"( see title)(you can rest assured that you to suffer "PPV" from their perspective) you need to come up with something that works.
Circa 1988 me and N 153 K over Rome/Rocket VOR's( cant remeber which one) I was told to contact Hartsfield Ctr, The reply I recieved on transfer was unintellagible to me, the accent was "Dennis Weaver" ( AKA McCloud), he refered to me as Crocodile Dundee?
I realised I had an accent.
When reporting altitudes or levels in the USA, I followed suit and used abreaviated IE: FL 195- Nineteen POINT Five ,hey it is precise:
Around the pacific Islands I learned to slow down my speech and give them time to get organised.
In/out of places in Europe, Spain,France, Algeria,Cameroon,Nigeria,Chad,( there is a host of PPV's) to try to get ones ears around, even knowing what comes next in the norm of things is not enough sometimes.( Don't forget they use ICAO)
EG: HB--- ( Oh tel Brrrrarvu) when ready cleared to decsend to Fl ---, contact XYZ on ---.--, On contact with XYZ, "Oh tel brrrrarvu --- say level maintaining"???
Left Fl --- just will not work, you will invariably just run around chasing your tail and getting frustrated, He or She wants to understand you, you want to understand He/She on the other end, so communicate with what works, I use with this scenario, vacated Fl ---, Passing Fl ---, and my rego,The reason is that He/She picks up on my PPV, can Identify it with the Transmission if stepped upon by another english speaking accent:
With regard to the Tiger in the hill, If you are not 100 % sure of the
territory, dont go down,be absolutely bloody certain, your lives and those of others so bloody bloody sadly often, depend on the Two of you getting it 100% F
g correct. cleared down to four hundred, not good enough.
I use UNDERSTAND ( and I say the word) (remember they want to understand you, you need to understand them) CLEARED TO VACATE FL--- DOWN TWO TOWSAND "small pause" FOUR ZERO ZERO FEET QNH ----.
Some of you are going to say OLD F's mad, but hey as I say In NZ or Aussie it doesn't matter alot, Flying your AB 340, or B 747, internationally on company set routes it doesn't matter a great deal, but when you are constantly going in out of boarders, and different places with out much notice, you will evolve believe me, your life depends on it.
Using the word AFFIRMATIVE, for get it, I will use CHARLIE CHARLIE everytime I want to be understood, it works, PERIOD.
To me its just good AIRMANSHIP, now thats a subject thats been debated for years isn't it.
The Airmanship to operate your AB or Boeing, is different to the Airmanship required to match the particular type of operation, not in total, but certainly in part.
And for your sake and that of your families , the whole aim is to become an OLD PILOT, nothing more, nothing less.
This is not about ICAO, it is about communicating, try asking your Narita, or Seol Controller to say Romeo, or Hotel, you can not say they don't speak english, we fly into their countries, they use PPV's particular to the region/ Country they are from.
Now ask your self this Q: HOW DO I SOUND TO THEM: Yes you to suffer from PPV.
Fly safe, & cherish your family
H/Snort.
As one that learnt to fly in NZ, and was taught "thou shalt only use standard Phraseology".
BUT after working all over this Sphere, I have found it does not always hold true.
Even more important than using correct phraseology, is the need to not only be understood, but to understand, That is your RESPONSIBILITY FOREMOST, if out side of CTA, eg: decsending A/C crossing tracks outside of CTA, you ( We, I ) will often have to work things out between your selves, if the other crew suffers from "PPV"( see title)(you can rest assured that you to suffer "PPV" from their perspective) you need to come up with something that works.
Circa 1988 me and N 153 K over Rome/Rocket VOR's( cant remeber which one) I was told to contact Hartsfield Ctr, The reply I recieved on transfer was unintellagible to me, the accent was "Dennis Weaver" ( AKA McCloud), he refered to me as Crocodile Dundee?
I realised I had an accent.
When reporting altitudes or levels in the USA, I followed suit and used abreaviated IE: FL 195- Nineteen POINT Five ,hey it is precise:
Around the pacific Islands I learned to slow down my speech and give them time to get organised.
In/out of places in Europe, Spain,France, Algeria,Cameroon,Nigeria,Chad,( there is a host of PPV's) to try to get ones ears around, even knowing what comes next in the norm of things is not enough sometimes.( Don't forget they use ICAO)
EG: HB--- ( Oh tel Brrrrarvu) when ready cleared to decsend to Fl ---, contact XYZ on ---.--, On contact with XYZ, "Oh tel brrrrarvu --- say level maintaining"???
Left Fl --- just will not work, you will invariably just run around chasing your tail and getting frustrated, He or She wants to understand you, you want to understand He/She on the other end, so communicate with what works, I use with this scenario, vacated Fl ---, Passing Fl ---, and my rego,The reason is that He/She picks up on my PPV, can Identify it with the Transmission if stepped upon by another english speaking accent:
With regard to the Tiger in the hill, If you are not 100 % sure of the
territory, dont go down,be absolutely bloody certain, your lives and those of others so bloody bloody sadly often, depend on the Two of you getting it 100% F
g correct. cleared down to four hundred, not good enough.I use UNDERSTAND ( and I say the word) (remember they want to understand you, you need to understand them) CLEARED TO VACATE FL--- DOWN TWO TOWSAND "small pause" FOUR ZERO ZERO FEET QNH ----.
Some of you are going to say OLD F
's mad, but hey as I say In NZ or Aussie it doesn't matter alot, Flying your AB 340, or B 747, internationally on company set routes it doesn't matter a great deal, but when you are constantly going in out of boarders, and different places with out much notice, you will evolve believe me, your life depends on it.Using the word AFFIRMATIVE, for get it, I will use CHARLIE CHARLIE everytime I want to be understood, it works, PERIOD.
To me its just good AIRMANSHIP, now thats a subject thats been debated for years isn't it.
The Airmanship to operate your AB or Boeing, is different to the Airmanship required to match the particular type of operation, not in total, but certainly in part.
And for your sake and that of your families , the whole aim is to become an OLD PILOT, nothing more, nothing less.
This is not about ICAO, it is about communicating, try asking your Narita, or Seol Controller to say Romeo, or Hotel, you can not say they don't speak english, we fly into their countries, they use PPV's particular to the region/ Country they are from.
Now ask your self this Q: HOW DO I SOUND TO THEM: Yes you to suffer from PPV.
Fly safe, & cherish your family
H/Snort.
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I'm all for that Bloggsy... providing estimates too etc. {Callsign} [my action - open Position box on that aircraft] {Estimate Apoma 35} [put in estimate 35, press enter]. If I get the callsign last, i remember the time, then repeat above process; subsequently delaying the next task.
NFR,
Sorry, I have only just realised what you are on about (with the help of SM 4 below). So it should be callsign first always. We should mount a mission to stir up D F-L...
Sorry, I have only just realised what you are on about (with the help of SM 4 below). So it should be callsign first always.
We should mount a mission to stir up D F-L...
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Hogsnort pretty well says it all. Adapt your R/T to the local idiom. Best learned by listening to what the other users say. Leaving - vacating - passing - reaching and maintaining work well in the vertical mode as none of those words should confuse the foreigner. Left and right work best if restricted to the lateral mode for the same reason. Even the occasional parochial Aussie ATCO will understand these terms. ICAO is accepted here, therefore none of us have an obligation to use anything else. However, if local lingo does accept "left" as a reference to some vertical activity, there's no harm in that either. Me? I avoid the word unless relating to a turn but if my co-pilot wants to use it I am not about to get my knickers in a twist, as I know the locals understand it. However, if he does it on an international sector I will berate him and require him to buy beer.
