Eagle advertising overseas
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: South of zero
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it always turns into a bloody slagging match dosen't it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from a simple question about inticing overseas pilots to fly we get down to slagging the company for not having AP's.
MOR don't you think every pilot in EAG wants to have an AP for those days when your on your 8th sector? it seems this topic of AP's is just beatting a dead dog. We know we need them and we wont them but we aint going to get them. Because of this we have good SOPs which should keep everything inline for those days you talk of MOR.
I'm not going to bag automated flight decks but keep in mind that being complacent and relying on AP's can also get you killed coz the machine only does what its told.
splat
MOR don't you think every pilot in EAG wants to have an AP for those days when your on your 8th sector? it seems this topic of AP's is just beatting a dead dog. We know we need them and we wont them but we aint going to get them. Because of this we have good SOPs which should keep everything inline for those days you talk of MOR.
I'm not going to bag automated flight decks but keep in mind that being complacent and relying on AP's can also get you killed coz the machine only does what its told.
splat
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: aus
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MOR,
Did you also consider eagle air also employ pilots directly out of GA.
It's a fantastic opportunity for people looking multi crew turbine expereince. I'd prefer to fly their 1900D's with the gear they have on boad then a battered up piston twin with an autopilot that occasionally works
I
Did you also consider eagle air also employ pilots directly out of GA.
It's a fantastic opportunity for people looking multi crew turbine expereince. I'd prefer to fly their 1900D's with the gear they have on boad then a battered up piston twin with an autopilot that occasionally works
I
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
splat
I'm sure you do want them, and I agree you won't get them. However, where I disagree is on the subject of how you deal with it. The simple fact is that it is completely irrelevant how good your SOPs are, because SOPs cannot compensate for fatigue, or a failure of judgement caused by fatigue.
Sure, you can screw up in an automated flight deck, you can screw up in any flight deck. The trick is managing the risk, and you can't get past the fact that your 1900 crew are going to be a lot more "at risk" after a long day in crappy weather than a crew who have the help of an autopilot.
Airlines who are safety-focused manage the risk first and the commercial imperative second. That is why truly safety-focused airlines fill their aircraft up with all the toys.
If you think I am wrong, research aircraft accidents over the last 20 years and you will see my point.
Now the original point of the thread was about expat Kiwis being enticed home to fly these wonderful 1900s. Most of us who have worked in Europe have worked in a safety culture that would never contemplate asking crews to operate without all the necessary tools to get the job done with the maximum emphasis on safety - in fact under JAR most of it is mandated anyway. I suspect many of my fellow Euro workers will not want to come back for the sort of conditions on offer in NZ.
The biggest surprise for me is that so many Eagle people are so quick to defend a clearly flawed equipment choice, but there you go. It's the culture.
yigy2
Of course it is, but then we aren't talking about Kiwi GA pilots, we are talking about expats overseas, most of whom will be flying shiny new jet equipment at the moment.
I'm sure you do want them, and I agree you won't get them. However, where I disagree is on the subject of how you deal with it. The simple fact is that it is completely irrelevant how good your SOPs are, because SOPs cannot compensate for fatigue, or a failure of judgement caused by fatigue.
Sure, you can screw up in an automated flight deck, you can screw up in any flight deck. The trick is managing the risk, and you can't get past the fact that your 1900 crew are going to be a lot more "at risk" after a long day in crappy weather than a crew who have the help of an autopilot.
Airlines who are safety-focused manage the risk first and the commercial imperative second. That is why truly safety-focused airlines fill their aircraft up with all the toys.
If you think I am wrong, research aircraft accidents over the last 20 years and you will see my point.
Now the original point of the thread was about expat Kiwis being enticed home to fly these wonderful 1900s. Most of us who have worked in Europe have worked in a safety culture that would never contemplate asking crews to operate without all the necessary tools to get the job done with the maximum emphasis on safety - in fact under JAR most of it is mandated anyway. I suspect many of my fellow Euro workers will not want to come back for the sort of conditions on offer in NZ.
The biggest surprise for me is that so many Eagle people are so quick to defend a clearly flawed equipment choice, but there you go. It's the culture.
yigy2
Of course it is, but then we aren't talking about Kiwi GA pilots, we are talking about expats overseas, most of whom will be flying shiny new jet equipment at the moment.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Dirka-dirka-stan
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting back to the topic at hand.
I know Eagle are getting worried about the lack of quality pilots in NZ. The idea of cadets schemes is something that will need to be addressed by Air NZ at some stage. The problem is not going away.
Applicants from overseas are getting thinner and thinner. Ones from Europe probably won't want to come back and fly but then places like the Carribean (sp?) and Africa might have a few pilots looking to come back.
Eagle look for the professional pilot. Someone who will eventually move to the Right seat. At the moment the quality and experience of some pilots in NZ is quite low and Eagle has washed out a lot of pilots. The standard is very high, and yes a few bad eggs do get through.
Now - I don't necessarily agree with there policy but it's not for me to change it. I also think that some training schools really need to get there act together and approx the bigger operators and ask them but they require from their students. Set up multi-crew training, interview technique courses, CV writing etc. Talk to management and see if they can provide a person to talk to the pilots coming through about interviews. Finesse.
I know it's probably been said before but I have seen and heard about guys/gals falling to pieces in a interview. Why?
A typical question being. "What would you do if the Captain flew below DHA or DA without being visible on an approach?"
A person said "He would lean over and smack the Captain and take over".
Probably not the correct answer but these people are the ones that need help. More finesse. It's a professional job..... Look and Act Professional and don't lie to them, they know more than you!!!
I know Eagle are getting worried about the lack of quality pilots in NZ. The idea of cadets schemes is something that will need to be addressed by Air NZ at some stage. The problem is not going away.
Applicants from overseas are getting thinner and thinner. Ones from Europe probably won't want to come back and fly but then places like the Carribean (sp?) and Africa might have a few pilots looking to come back.
Eagle look for the professional pilot. Someone who will eventually move to the Right seat. At the moment the quality and experience of some pilots in NZ is quite low and Eagle has washed out a lot of pilots. The standard is very high, and yes a few bad eggs do get through.
Now - I don't necessarily agree with there policy but it's not for me to change it. I also think that some training schools really need to get there act together and approx the bigger operators and ask them but they require from their students. Set up multi-crew training, interview technique courses, CV writing etc. Talk to management and see if they can provide a person to talk to the pilots coming through about interviews. Finesse.
I know it's probably been said before but I have seen and heard about guys/gals falling to pieces in a interview. Why?
A typical question being. "What would you do if the Captain flew below DHA or DA without being visible on an approach?"
A person said "He would lean over and smack the Captain and take over".
Probably not the correct answer but these people are the ones that need help. More finesse. It's a professional job..... Look and Act Professional and don't lie to them, they know more than you!!!
Sounds like someones going to enjoy the mysterious Orient.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NZ
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the bottom of the barrel is being scraped now in terms of new hires for Eagle? I can't think that there would be 10 guys/girls available for interviews every month or so with the required hours. But there's a heap who have been passed over because they didn't cut it at the over-the-top psycho-analysis 3 day lark. What a joke. And the axe is what you smash the captain with when he goes below DA.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: South of zero
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly I would like to say to KAVU Dirka dirka mohummad jihad with that out the way
MOR
I'm not trying to argue the fact that a beech crew is more likely to make mistakes after a hard day or that SOPs will protect us. I'm just trying to point out that management (not the ones who decided not to get APs) the others, do their best to make it as safe as they can without the APs by having good SOPs and hard checks (this part is not good
)
As far as inticing overseas pilots its mainly been guys/girls from OZZY and AFRICA not european pilots, I admit we have a few and they are all good buggers but they moved back for lifestyle not career progression.
splat
eddited with thanks: My memory was a little fuzzy so i will have to go and buy the DVD
MOR
I'm not trying to argue the fact that a beech crew is more likely to make mistakes after a hard day or that SOPs will protect us. I'm just trying to point out that management (not the ones who decided not to get APs) the others, do their best to make it as safe as they can without the APs by having good SOPs and hard checks (this part is not good
)As far as inticing overseas pilots its mainly been guys/girls from OZZY and AFRICA not european pilots, I admit we have a few and they are all good buggers but they moved back for lifestyle not career progression.
splat
eddited with thanks: My memory was a little fuzzy so i will have to go and buy the DVD
Last edited by splatgothebugs; 24th Jul 2005 at 07:34.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Splat
Fair enough. However, hard checks is another piece of Kiwi aviation nonsense that will hopefully change one day. Everybody else (in the western world) has moved on from the idea that a hard check is a good measure of a pilots ability. It isn't. That is why, under JAR, the autopilot is used extensively in checks. We look for other stuff these days.
Even in a largely hand-flown environment, loading up a pilot on a check doesn't prove a thing, except that all pilots will lose it when enough pressure is applied.
We used to have a problem with ex-RAF types who took the "stress them until they crack" approach to checking. Needless to say, we enjoyed ourselves hugely showing them how easily they could lose the plot. We never made that stuff part of the check, though, we saved it till "playtime" at the end of the sim detail.
Anyway good on your managers for doing the best they can with the resources they have.
Fair enough. However, hard checks is another piece of Kiwi aviation nonsense that will hopefully change one day. Everybody else (in the western world) has moved on from the idea that a hard check is a good measure of a pilots ability. It isn't. That is why, under JAR, the autopilot is used extensively in checks. We look for other stuff these days.
Even in a largely hand-flown environment, loading up a pilot on a check doesn't prove a thing, except that all pilots will lose it when enough pressure is applied.
We used to have a problem with ex-RAF types who took the "stress them until they crack" approach to checking. Needless to say, we enjoyed ourselves hugely showing them how easily they could lose the plot. We never made that stuff part of the check, though, we saved it till "playtime" at the end of the sim detail.
Anyway good on your managers for doing the best they can with the resources they have.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
don't you think every pilot in EAG wants to have an AP for those days when your on your 8th sector?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Dog Box
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow I'm no Eagle fan but theres also no way I would stand up for that dirty pile of english nuts and bolts that used to piss it's hydraulic fluid all over nelson tarmac on an almost daily basis, that is if you could get it started.
Now the 41 on the other hand....
Now the 41 on the other hand....
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 1900 operates on the basis that, if you hang enough aerodynamic surfaces on the thing, it will eventually have no choice but to fly straight and level.
The J32, being a man's aircraft, actually requires some piloting ability. And it is strong, has decent systems, and a fine British heritage.
I suppose that this implies that OP pilots are all real men, and that Eagle pilots are, you know, the other thing... no, surely that can't be right...
The J32, being a man's aircraft, actually requires some piloting ability. And it is strong, has decent systems, and a fine British heritage.
I suppose that this implies that OP pilots are all real men, and that Eagle pilots are, you know, the other thing... no, surely that can't be right...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yer lucky yu lot.
In my day only planes we could aspire to was a Fletcher , Cub or Cessna 180/185.
All them had a hole in the bottom fer poopin poop outa.
I think the only twin flying was an old Aerocomm that went into the side of Ruapehu and and aerial mapping Beech 18 and some ghastly pommie thing.
I well remember instructors at Ardmore being paid a $1 a day.
The NAC jobs was for RNZAF wallys with Vampire time.aerocommander
In my day only planes we could aspire to was a Fletcher , Cub or Cessna 180/185.
All them had a hole in the bottom fer poopin poop outa.
I think the only twin flying was an old Aerocomm that went into the side of Ruapehu and and aerial mapping Beech 18 and some ghastly pommie thing.
I well remember instructors at Ardmore being paid a $1 a day.
The NAC jobs was for RNZAF wallys with Vampire time.aerocommander
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eee, by 'eck lad.... we 'ad it tough... lived in paper bag... ate handful of hot gravel... licked road clean w' tongue...
...and you try telling young folk that today... and they won't believe you!
...and you try telling young folk that today... and they won't believe you!
