QF S/O salary??
Calligula
"Know your place". I see QF's infamous CRM culture alive and well.
You come accross as a bit of a coward in your callous attack on Keg FWIW.
S/O Pay
I have professional respect for the pay & conditons of QF pilots. From the stories I've heard from QF pilots who have left, you couldn't pay me that much to sit behind some of those clowns, even if I was just folding maps.
"Know your place". I see QF's infamous CRM culture alive and well.
You come accross as a bit of a coward in your callous attack on Keg FWIW.
S/O Pay
I have professional respect for the pay & conditons of QF pilots. From the stories I've heard from QF pilots who have left, you couldn't pay me that much to sit behind some of those clowns, even if I was just folding maps.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 10th Jul 2005 at 21:45.
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So how much does a Qwantas 330 FO gross with allowances but without overtime?
Bolty, and why not? They should be given a little extra respect. They are the top of the dung heap as far as pilots go.
But then there're the SR71 pilots. Top of the spy-plane dung heap.
Then there're the guys who fly the (remaining) space shuttles, now there's a hard job to get. They're not exactly expanding the fleet.
I guess the REAL top of the dung heap would be the lucky turd who's test flying the crashed saucer they've got hidden away in Hangar 18 or Area 69 or wherever.
Wonder what he gets paid.......
Bolty, and why not? They should be given a little extra respect. They are the top of the dung heap as far as pilots go.
But then there're the SR71 pilots. Top of the spy-plane dung heap.
Then there're the guys who fly the (remaining) space shuttles, now there's a hard job to get. They're not exactly expanding the fleet.
I guess the REAL top of the dung heap would be the lucky turd who's test flying the crashed saucer they've got hidden away in Hangar 18 or Area 69 or wherever.
Wonder what he gets paid.......
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Australia2 & Gnadenburg,
Couldn't agree more. You guys are dead on with your posts and certainly not alone in your beliefs.
Many guys are considering "Employment Plan 2" with some F/O's & S/O's having already departed from QF.
Even some Capts are talking of seeking out contract opportunities once the kids are out of home.
You have to laugh at the attitudes of a select group of QF longtermers. They are simply astonished that some pilots are even considering leaving QF. Maybe they & AIPA should open their eyes (& ears) to what many FO's & SO's feel about their future prospects in the company.
Lots of unhappiness in the Rat at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. You guys are dead on with your posts and certainly not alone in your beliefs.
Many guys are considering "Employment Plan 2" with some F/O's & S/O's having already departed from QF.
Even some Capts are talking of seeking out contract opportunities once the kids are out of home.
You have to laugh at the attitudes of a select group of QF longtermers. They are simply astonished that some pilots are even considering leaving QF. Maybe they & AIPA should open their eyes (& ears) to what many FO's & SO's feel about their future prospects in the company.
Lots of unhappiness in the Rat at the moment.
Last edited by The Riddler; 10th Jul 2005 at 22:54.
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Cutest Of Borg
“So when you hear that a SO grossed 160K ;then to do that he must have flown X amount of hours at that hourly rate plus Y amount of over-time at that hourly rate. The SO Hourly rate is based on appropriately negotiated relativities to other ranks and aircraft types”
A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO.
He hand flys 1000 hours per year, non precision approaches are the norm in crappy weather, sometimes 4-5 per day.
He would have to fly almost 3000 hours per year to net the same salary as a QF SO, who does not even fly the aircraft.
How do you reconcile that?
And another question, do Aus Airlines use Second Officers. Does the Jetstar award cater for Second Officers.
“So when you hear that a SO grossed 160K ;then to do that he must have flown X amount of hours at that hourly rate plus Y amount of over-time at that hourly rate. The SO Hourly rate is based on appropriately negotiated relativities to other ranks and aircraft types”
A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO.
He hand flys 1000 hours per year, non precision approaches are the norm in crappy weather, sometimes 4-5 per day.
He would have to fly almost 3000 hours per year to net the same salary as a QF SO, who does not even fly the aircraft.
How do you reconcile that?
And another question, do Aus Airlines use Second Officers. Does the Jetstar award cater for Second Officers.
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Zapatas Blood
Both Aus Airlines and Jet* do not do the sector lengths where flight time limitations require a SO.
Note that many international airlines fly "heavy" crews consisting of more than one Captain or FO, only a few have SOs.
Both Aus Airlines and Jet* do not do the sector lengths where flight time limitations require a SO.
Note that many international airlines fly "heavy" crews consisting of more than one Captain or FO, only a few have SOs.
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Zap, since when are pilots paid on relative workload? If that was the case, as noted elsewhere, the single engine, single pilot, unpressurised, IFR charter pilots would be king of the roost!
You think movie stars have a heavy workload for what they earn? No, they are being paid for the economic benefit they bring to their employers.
Same with pilots. The old weight speed formula has gone the way of the dodo, so efficiency's are the yardstick. You start with the Captain of the biggest, shiniest jet; the one with the most stellar RPK's, and work your way down the food chain using pay relativities.
Cabin crew rates don't come into the equation. That is why you get many CC getting paid more than regional pilots and in some cases, more than SO's in Qantas. Good luck to them, but that's between them and the company.
I fail to see the point of this whole thread except to pander to some who believe that SO pay should come down. When I left my last job to join Qantas, I took a pay cut to be a SO. Many people do. It gets better over time though.
Why do people constantly seek to drag down the last aviation job in Australia that pays anything like the going rate overseas?... Talk about believing the cr@p dished up to you by vested interests..
You think movie stars have a heavy workload for what they earn? No, they are being paid for the economic benefit they bring to their employers.
Same with pilots. The old weight speed formula has gone the way of the dodo, so efficiency's are the yardstick. You start with the Captain of the biggest, shiniest jet; the one with the most stellar RPK's, and work your way down the food chain using pay relativities.
Cabin crew rates don't come into the equation. That is why you get many CC getting paid more than regional pilots and in some cases, more than SO's in Qantas. Good luck to them, but that's between them and the company.
I fail to see the point of this whole thread except to pander to some who believe that SO pay should come down. When I left my last job to join Qantas, I took a pay cut to be a SO. Many people do. It gets better over time though.
Why do people constantly seek to drag down the last aviation job in Australia that pays anything like the going rate overseas?... Talk about believing the cr@p dished up to you by vested interests..
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A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO.
He would have to fly almost 3000 hours per year to net the same salary as a QF SO, who does not even fly the aircraft.
How do you reconcile that?
He would have to fly almost 3000 hours per year to net the same salary as a QF SO, who does not even fly the aircraft.
How do you reconcile that?
The higher salaries of pilots flying larger aircraft are made possible because of the higher payloads carried.
S/O's are a money saver for the companys that use them!
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Borg said “Qantas SO's get paid less than the FO's and extra Captains are paid in a lot of other companies for doing the same job. Qantas SAVES a lot by employing SO's at their current rate.”
Take a look at the Qantas network and you will find that the majority of FO’s flying for airlines competing with QF are paid considerable less than QF SO’s and in some cases the commanders are paid less than the QF SO’s. Many of these carriers operate 2 crew on sectors where QF would carry 3 crew.
Borg also said “The old weight speed formula has gone the way of the dodo, so efficiency's are the yardstick”
This is true, most carriers don’t pay crew according to aircraft size or RPK’s, no matter how stellar they may be.
“Why do people constantly seek to drag down the last aviation job in Australia that pays anything like the going rate overseas”
Borg, you should get out into the big wide world of aviation and realize that someone getting paid 160000 AUD (or anything even close) for sleeping in the jumpseat of a 2 crew automated jet is not getting the “going rate”.
Honker said “No-one has to "reconcile" (justify) anything”
. . . . . . . NJS, Jetstar, Australian Airlines, Jet connect.
Take a look at the Qantas network and you will find that the majority of FO’s flying for airlines competing with QF are paid considerable less than QF SO’s and in some cases the commanders are paid less than the QF SO’s. Many of these carriers operate 2 crew on sectors where QF would carry 3 crew.
Borg also said “The old weight speed formula has gone the way of the dodo, so efficiency's are the yardstick”
This is true, most carriers don’t pay crew according to aircraft size or RPK’s, no matter how stellar they may be.
“Why do people constantly seek to drag down the last aviation job in Australia that pays anything like the going rate overseas”
Borg, you should get out into the big wide world of aviation and realize that someone getting paid 160000 AUD (or anything even close) for sleeping in the jumpseat of a 2 crew automated jet is not getting the “going rate”.
Honker said “No-one has to "reconcile" (justify) anything”
. . . . . . . NJS, Jetstar, Australian Airlines, Jet connect.
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Yes, let's not throw stones at those who are paid well in our industry when so much of our industry is being dragged down with conditions/pay and now paying for endorsements. In many ways QF conditions should be aspired to, not knocked down. We all work very hard and sacrifice a lot to put up the $$ to set out on a career, then if we're lucky get a job that pays near the dole to slug your guts out in GA for years working for peanuts so secreatries can get paid more than a GA pilot. Now of course when the dream of an airline job is realised, Virgin come in and cut conditions, make you pay for endorsement with J*, eastern following suit. How many GA pilots have that cash lying around? None! I admire my mates in GA for pulling their applications out from these airlines in protest. It's a disgrace! Anyone in airline management heard of a bond???? Surely a 5 year bond would be a much better system. As useless as AIPA seem, that is one issue I'm sure they and all QF pilots wouldn't let happen in QF.
Anyway, as a 1st year 767 S/O (rotating) I grossed (incl allowances) $90K in my 1st year whilst mates on the 400 earned $20K more. I payed more in tax that year than I earned in the previous year in GA! Now as a F/O $135K which is still down on 400 S/O's, however overtime kicks in for them. Yes it is unfair that S/O's are paid more then F/O's but it's a reasonably complicated system and I'd rather be flying, than in the back seat "waiting for the dust to settle" ...... However, a 400 S/O with same seniority earns $10K more than me is ridiculous, but I don't advocate giving him a paycut!!!
Anyway, as a 1st year 767 S/O (rotating) I grossed (incl allowances) $90K in my 1st year whilst mates on the 400 earned $20K more. I payed more in tax that year than I earned in the previous year in GA! Now as a F/O $135K which is still down on 400 S/O's, however overtime kicks in for them. Yes it is unfair that S/O's are paid more then F/O's but it's a reasonably complicated system and I'd rather be flying, than in the back seat "waiting for the dust to settle" ...... However, a 400 S/O with same seniority earns $10K more than me is ridiculous, but I don't advocate giving him a paycut!!!
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Hear hear Skypatrol.
When one group - or even one individual - start trying to drag others' conditions DOWN, instead of trying to RAISE their own, you are encouraging employers to do the same.
The boyish mentality of "All I wanna do is fly - and if it's bigger, it's better." is dragging the standard down, not just for pilots, but for employers as well, because anyone with half a brain realises that spending over $100k of your own (or borrowed) money to get a basic licence, subject to annual medicals, is NOT a good investment anymore.
And why even suggest a bond, Skypatrol?
Staff training is an allowable tax deduction for companies - chances are it WON'T be for you.
What's the next offer to employers going to be? I'll pay for any fuel used over and above the planned burn........I'll pay for any extra flight time I incur, above the scheduled times?
You require me to wear a uniform - but I'll pay for it? Ooops, Tiger Airways pilots are already doing that!
There IS nothing "fair" in aviation, and you'll find that the longer you're in the game, stuff that seems financially astute to you apparently does NOT work for airline companies, whilst other things that seem penny-pinching to YOU assume major importance to airline beanies and management.
Look at JetStar Asia, and the number of pilots here who predicted it would be a failure, but how astute financial accounting and management skills proved otherwise
When one group - or even one individual - start trying to drag others' conditions DOWN, instead of trying to RAISE their own, you are encouraging employers to do the same.
The boyish mentality of "All I wanna do is fly - and if it's bigger, it's better." is dragging the standard down, not just for pilots, but for employers as well, because anyone with half a brain realises that spending over $100k of your own (or borrowed) money to get a basic licence, subject to annual medicals, is NOT a good investment anymore.
And why even suggest a bond, Skypatrol?
Staff training is an allowable tax deduction for companies - chances are it WON'T be for you.
What's the next offer to employers going to be? I'll pay for any fuel used over and above the planned burn........I'll pay for any extra flight time I incur, above the scheduled times?
You require me to wear a uniform - but I'll pay for it? Ooops, Tiger Airways pilots are already doing that!
There IS nothing "fair" in aviation, and you'll find that the longer you're in the game, stuff that seems financially astute to you apparently does NOT work for airline companies, whilst other things that seem penny-pinching to YOU assume major importance to airline beanies and management.
Look at JetStar Asia, and the number of pilots here who predicted it would be a failure, but how astute financial accounting and management skills proved otherwise
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Ronnie,
I only suggested a bond as a alternative to upfront cash given that airlines don't want to spend $$ training new hire pilots to see them head to a bigger airline 6 months down the track, which is fair enough as they're getting a very poor return on their investment. Easterns being the obvious example here. QF, EK and many other airlines have this in place, so if Ronnie leaves after 1 year of a 3 year bond, he/she then pays the remaining 2 years of that bond.
I only suggested a bond as a alternative to upfront cash given that airlines don't want to spend $$ training new hire pilots to see them head to a bigger airline 6 months down the track, which is fair enough as they're getting a very poor return on their investment. Easterns being the obvious example here. QF, EK and many other airlines have this in place, so if Ronnie leaves after 1 year of a 3 year bond, he/she then pays the remaining 2 years of that bond.
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Not sure what this thread is coming to, but to whichever QF S/O rakes in $160K per year, could you please have them PM me and explain how the hell they do it? I get pretty good trips and am a reasonable way up the seniority list, and my last years gross doesn't even approximate that.
As for those comparing incomes and whingeing about what an S/O gets:
1) I see you are joining the long and distinguished queue of people who by inference would be quite happy to attack pilot earnings and drag them down further.
2) There have been a few too many comparisons on this thread with apples and oranges. Did it ever cross your mind that some airlines are grossly UNDERPAYING their pilots, rather than S/Os being overpaid?
3) There are many variables which come into S/O pay by the nature of the operation.
Come off it guys. If you're not happy about what you're earning, how about looking at a job change?
As for those comparing incomes and whingeing about what an S/O gets:
1) I see you are joining the long and distinguished queue of people who by inference would be quite happy to attack pilot earnings and drag them down further.
2) There have been a few too many comparisons on this thread with apples and oranges. Did it ever cross your mind that some airlines are grossly UNDERPAYING their pilots, rather than S/Os being overpaid?
3) There are many variables which come into S/O pay by the nature of the operation.
Come off it guys. If you're not happy about what you're earning, how about looking at a job change?
I wonder how many other professions attack the higher earnings of their peers like pilots do.
I hope these guys, and all the other drivers of aeroplanes out there get huge pay rises...then perhaps market forces might let some of it filter down to me.
Don
I hope these guys, and all the other drivers of aeroplanes out there get huge pay rises...then perhaps market forces might let some of it filter down to me.
Don
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Ronnie
There are quite a few SO's on the 400 with more experience than your friend. In fact quite a few have more experience than the FO's. And maybe even of a few of the more junior captains.
Dutchroll, haven't seen my group certificate yet but am on track to gross 150k. Not many LAX's in that, mainly european trips and quite a few double shuttles. I find the extra allowances for the shuttles are more tax effective than doing the high overtime flights.
A good friend of mine is a turbo prop captain for a regional airline; he has been in the industry for 12 years. He has more experience than most, if not all, QF second officers and has paid just as much for his flying training as any QF SO
Dutchroll, haven't seen my group certificate yet but am on track to gross 150k. Not many LAX's in that, mainly european trips and quite a few double shuttles. I find the extra allowances for the shuttles are more tax effective than doing the high overtime flights.
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I doubt that there would be very few Q S/O's who would dispute who has the higher workload, and the crappier lifestyle, when comparing single pilot IFR - and even the turbo prop Captain mate of Zapata's. Many of them have the hours, and the badges to show THEY'VE been there, done that.
I also doubt that there would be very, very few airline pilots who would agree that G.A. pilots are grossly underpaid, for the many and various reasons known to pilots who have come up through the G.A. ranks.
But the unfortunate reality of the situation is that G.A. doesn't have aircraft that can carry the payloads (bums-on-seats, or freight) that ENABLE the owners to reward their staff - not only pilots - to the same extent that the higher capacity airlines are able to.
Perhaps, there needs to be more attention given to "lifestyle" conditions of G.A. pilots - days off, holidays, loadings for working on week-ends, public hols, back of the clock - that airline pilots DON'T get, to offset the financial differences.
Dixon pulls $6 million+ p.a. There wouldn't be any individual in G.A. who comes close to scalping that - but I'll bet they put in a lot more time then Dicko does.
And our latest "commander in chief" will reap $100k just for being who he is.
A goose and a golden egg seem to have particular relevance to an Australian kangaroo at this point in time!
I also doubt that there would be very, very few airline pilots who would agree that G.A. pilots are grossly underpaid, for the many and various reasons known to pilots who have come up through the G.A. ranks.
But the unfortunate reality of the situation is that G.A. doesn't have aircraft that can carry the payloads (bums-on-seats, or freight) that ENABLE the owners to reward their staff - not only pilots - to the same extent that the higher capacity airlines are able to.
Perhaps, there needs to be more attention given to "lifestyle" conditions of G.A. pilots - days off, holidays, loadings for working on week-ends, public hols, back of the clock - that airline pilots DON'T get, to offset the financial differences.
Dixon pulls $6 million+ p.a. There wouldn't be any individual in G.A. who comes close to scalping that - but I'll bet they put in a lot more time then Dicko does.
And our latest "commander in chief" will reap $100k just for being who he is.
A goose and a golden egg seem to have particular relevance to an Australian kangaroo at this point in time!