Advise For Students
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Advise For Students
MY BIGGEST PIECE OF ADVISE FOR STUDENTS OR NEW CPL PILOTS LOOKING FOR WORK IS 'DO THE BARE MINIMUM '. DONT FALL INTO THE TRAP OF SPENDING ALL OF YOUR HARD EARNED CASH ON CIR'S AND ME RATINGS AND THE LIKE. CAUSE THEY DONT MEAN S*#T WHEN IT COMES TIME TO LOOK FOR A JOB!
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my tip for any prospective CPL's - before you start any training, talk to everyone you know (coz everyone knows a pilot) and see how many punters paid their money and never even got the 'first' job, leave alone a career.
then ask the ones that have a career and see what they tell you about this great industry.
i love the job, but think the industry stinks.
how many other careers that cost so much offer so little (financially) unless you make it to the big stuff.
lots of students and not many jobs. gets worse every year.
then ask the ones that have a career and see what they tell you about this great industry.
i love the job, but think the industry stinks.
how many other careers that cost so much offer so little (financially) unless you make it to the big stuff.
lots of students and not many jobs. gets worse every year.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Hi all
I agree with all above. If you want to go into flying well that is fine. HOWEVER,
1) Avoid if possible getting a loan ($)
2) Do the bare min (depending on circumstances)
3) As mentioned by Huntsman, talk with people about their experiences.
4) Be careful of flight schools offering you the world and those that have flashy brochures ( a bit like flashy finance brochures)
5) Have a "funk hole" i.e. if things do not go your way have a back up plan.
I pretty much followed all of the above except number 2 (I got everything). It did not work out for me so I am now doing finance at uni and enjoying it.
I certainly do not regret having a go at the flying, it just did not work out, so I moved on.
And before someone says it "no, I am not bitter"
Ash
I agree with all above. If you want to go into flying well that is fine. HOWEVER,
1) Avoid if possible getting a loan ($)
2) Do the bare min (depending on circumstances)
3) As mentioned by Huntsman, talk with people about their experiences.
4) Be careful of flight schools offering you the world and those that have flashy brochures ( a bit like flashy finance brochures)
5) Have a "funk hole" i.e. if things do not go your way have a back up plan.
I pretty much followed all of the above except number 2 (I got everything). It did not work out for me so I am now doing finance at uni and enjoying it.
I certainly do not regret having a go at the flying, it just did not work out, so I moved on.
And before someone says it "no, I am not bitter"
Ash
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Whatmoon,
So, are you saying, go look for your first job without your MECIR ?
My first job required me to although I didnt use it at once.
I was required to fly twins one day and do an instrument approach on the same day after 6 months. I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to bag that twin job if I didn't have it.
D6
So, are you saying, go look for your first job without your MECIR ?
My first job required me to although I didnt use it at once.
I was required to fly twins one day and do an instrument approach on the same day after 6 months. I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to bag that twin job if I didn't have it.
D6
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Ash767,
A genuine congratulations! Studying Finance at Uni is one of the best things that you could do. You'll probably be a lot richer and happier than if you had have stayed in Aviation.
While some people argue "battle on and stay in the industry no matter what", I would actually argue differently, if things aren't working out, get out and do something else. I've seen too many people end up very bitter about it and missing the best years of their life trying to chase some non-existent job in some remote corner of the country.
I know that this is not the trendy thing to say but the fact is... luck does play a part. Some people get a good run in the industry and some don't. Some people get a good first or second job- others don't.
You've given some good advice there, I would amend and add to your 5 things:
1) Don't get a loan. Earn the money. Getting a loan is bad news- being in debt before you go into the industry is just plain stupid. Debt generally causes slavery in the world. Only ever use debt to invest. A CPL is not an investment, no matter what anyone says.
2) Do the bear minimums but if you can, use the hours to get some ratings as well. Keep in mind that the more you do while you are earning money in a real job, the less you will have to scrounge for once you are working in aviation.
3) Talk with people about their experiences- if you are in a capital city, go and make pilot friends at a country airport and talk with them about their experiences- milk all the contacts you can for all their worth and take heed of bad stories as well as good ones.
4) Be very wary of flashy brochures, but also realise sometimes that people who are putting enough $ into advertising have enough $ in the first place. Anything with a 747 of the like should be avoided.
5) Definately have back-up plan. In fact, have a back-up career or skill. Get yourself a decent job and some sort of qualification in something versatlie and movable. Do this before or while you are doing your training. It will make you a better person and will probably help your aviation job prospects.
6) If you haven't any, get some experience living in the country (i.e. at least a regional town) get some. Depending on your circumstances, it also may be cheaper to live there. Many people in the cities don't realise where they will have to live to get the jobs.
7) Learn how to approach and talk to people in the industry.
8) Leave any attitude you may have at home when you look for work. Be confident and diplomatic.
9) Realise that your paid flying work after CPL is being paid because you are making someone else (the operator) more money. Think about thier goals and what they want. Too many junior CPLs have their heads in the clouds only thinking about what they themselves want out of aviation.
10) Do all your theory. If you want to get an ATPL one day- start studying for it.
11) Most people are barracking for you in the industry- most people like to see fresh CPL holders get on and get hours- but always remember some people with more expreience in the industry have gone through hell to get the hours in their log books (treat them with care).
12) The industry can be hell. And you know what Winston Churchill said about hell..."if you are going through hell you better keep going."
Geeeeeeeeeezzzzz...... I should write a book.
Actually, I was going to write a book and then I thought no F
it, I'll just buy one!
A genuine congratulations! Studying Finance at Uni is one of the best things that you could do. You'll probably be a lot richer and happier than if you had have stayed in Aviation.
While some people argue "battle on and stay in the industry no matter what", I would actually argue differently, if things aren't working out, get out and do something else. I've seen too many people end up very bitter about it and missing the best years of their life trying to chase some non-existent job in some remote corner of the country.
I know that this is not the trendy thing to say but the fact is... luck does play a part. Some people get a good run in the industry and some don't. Some people get a good first or second job- others don't.
You've given some good advice there, I would amend and add to your 5 things:
1) Don't get a loan. Earn the money. Getting a loan is bad news- being in debt before you go into the industry is just plain stupid. Debt generally causes slavery in the world. Only ever use debt to invest. A CPL is not an investment, no matter what anyone says.
2) Do the bear minimums but if you can, use the hours to get some ratings as well. Keep in mind that the more you do while you are earning money in a real job, the less you will have to scrounge for once you are working in aviation.
3) Talk with people about their experiences- if you are in a capital city, go and make pilot friends at a country airport and talk with them about their experiences- milk all the contacts you can for all their worth and take heed of bad stories as well as good ones.
4) Be very wary of flashy brochures, but also realise sometimes that people who are putting enough $ into advertising have enough $ in the first place. Anything with a 747 of the like should be avoided.
5) Definately have back-up plan. In fact, have a back-up career or skill. Get yourself a decent job and some sort of qualification in something versatlie and movable. Do this before or while you are doing your training. It will make you a better person and will probably help your aviation job prospects.
6) If you haven't any, get some experience living in the country (i.e. at least a regional town) get some. Depending on your circumstances, it also may be cheaper to live there. Many people in the cities don't realise where they will have to live to get the jobs.
7) Learn how to approach and talk to people in the industry.
8) Leave any attitude you may have at home when you look for work. Be confident and diplomatic.
9) Realise that your paid flying work after CPL is being paid because you are making someone else (the operator) more money. Think about thier goals and what they want. Too many junior CPLs have their heads in the clouds only thinking about what they themselves want out of aviation.
10) Do all your theory. If you want to get an ATPL one day- start studying for it.
11) Most people are barracking for you in the industry- most people like to see fresh CPL holders get on and get hours- but always remember some people with more expreience in the industry have gone through hell to get the hours in their log books (treat them with care).
12) The industry can be hell. And you know what Winston Churchill said about hell..."if you are going through hell you better keep going."
Geeeeeeeeeezzzzz...... I should write a book.
Actually, I was going to write a book and then I thought no F
it, I'll just buy one!
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I love flying, always have, always will, but dont get into the industry for the financial rewards!
my tip, get your CPL, put the rest of your cash into buying/building your own aircraft, get a job that actually gives a financial reward, then fly for fun!
my tip, get your CPL, put the rest of your cash into buying/building your own aircraft, get a job that actually gives a financial reward, then fly for fun!
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bare minimum fair enough but what is it. at the moment for me i don't have to money for an instructor rating and to be frank i don't want one but it does open up a few doors i do have a mecir and even some multi crew time. so when does it become more of a let down than a door opener is what i'm getting at
P.S.anyone offering jobs leave me a message
P.S.anyone offering jobs leave me a message
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"Don't go for the flashy brochure" you say.
Well, would you go to a school that has a photocopied flyer, done on an old typewriter which punched a hole through the "o"s ? If they can't afford to advertise, they shouldn't be in the game. Can they afford to service their machines? Do they pay their instructors properly? Do they make the students pay for a cup of coffee? Do new CPLs hang around the place for no pay and fight over a positioning flight?
You get what you pay for in this game (except if you need CASA's services...)
Well, would you go to a school that has a photocopied flyer, done on an old typewriter which punched a hole through the "o"s ? If they can't afford to advertise, they shouldn't be in the game. Can they afford to service their machines? Do they pay their instructors properly? Do they make the students pay for a cup of coffee? Do new CPLs hang around the place for no pay and fight over a positioning flight?
You get what you pay for in this game (except if you need CASA's services...)
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Deguise delimit,
I take your point on brochures and agree with you to a certain extent. My advice is to be WARY of them. In this day and age of publishing it's pretty easy and realitively cheap to put together very good brochures. And just because someone has a good brochure, does not mean that they are servicing their machines properly or paying their instructors.
My advice would be to be WARY of advertising and marketing hype. Try to find out about the real product being offered. What is behind the product?
It's good to be excited about a new career, but it's also wise to take a step back and do some homework. Any old mug can put a flashy brochure together with a 747 on the front and write a few paragraphs about being a commercial pilot.
On the other hand, a poorly written brochure (particularly at a large school) is probably some indication of the care they take in other things (such as their students).
Another one to add (which I should have mentioned before):
13. Don't pay upfront. I'll say it again: In aviation DON'T PAY UPFRONT.
Even if it costs you more to pay as you go, do it that way. Consider that little extra cost insurance.
If something happens, something goes wrong- beyond your control - you will almost definately never get your money back.
Even if halfway through your training, some personal event or tragedy occurs, you may need that money.
Once paid - it's gone and you have no control over it, and at that point you can only hope that you get your flying done. I have seen it happen, and I have heard of people who have chased thier hard-earned cash through the courts to no avail. I have seen people's aviation dollars (and dreams) disappear into thin air.
On and personal level, I have had to go to considerable (unreasonable) lengths to chase wages along with other pilots that I have worked with.
There are plenty of good operators out there and some really great ones.
14. In the next life have filthy rich parents who will buy you your own airline.
I take your point on brochures and agree with you to a certain extent. My advice is to be WARY of them. In this day and age of publishing it's pretty easy and realitively cheap to put together very good brochures. And just because someone has a good brochure, does not mean that they are servicing their machines properly or paying their instructors.
My advice would be to be WARY of advertising and marketing hype. Try to find out about the real product being offered. What is behind the product?
It's good to be excited about a new career, but it's also wise to take a step back and do some homework. Any old mug can put a flashy brochure together with a 747 on the front and write a few paragraphs about being a commercial pilot.
On the other hand, a poorly written brochure (particularly at a large school) is probably some indication of the care they take in other things (such as their students).
Another one to add (which I should have mentioned before):
13. Don't pay upfront. I'll say it again: In aviation DON'T PAY UPFRONT.
Even if it costs you more to pay as you go, do it that way. Consider that little extra cost insurance.
If something happens, something goes wrong- beyond your control - you will almost definately never get your money back.
Even if halfway through your training, some personal event or tragedy occurs, you may need that money.
Once paid - it's gone and you have no control over it, and at that point you can only hope that you get your flying done. I have seen it happen, and I have heard of people who have chased thier hard-earned cash through the courts to no avail. I have seen people's aviation dollars (and dreams) disappear into thin air.
On and personal level, I have had to go to considerable (unreasonable) lengths to chase wages along with other pilots that I have worked with.
There are plenty of good operators out there and some really great ones.
14. In the next life have filthy rich parents who will buy you your own airline.
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Advise For Students
I agree with most. If you want a CPL or even an ATP later and work in GA then get you CPL the cheapest and easiest way. May be it's a good idea to get an instructor rating making it easier to get the first job.
Don't fall for the flashy advertisements showing B747 flight decks and fellows in uniform telling you "enrol with us and that seat in the B747 is yours". Don't fall for it, that's bull.... A CPL and a CIR (ME) will NOT put you in line for an airline job. Sorry. 3,000 hours and actually hoilding the ATP won't either. You have already adopted GA habits making unsuitable for making money for an airline using tools such as B747 or Airbus (even stated by QANTAS in aviation magazines several years ago).
If you want to be an airline pilot then get yourself a degree, either a BSc involving electronic engineering as well as transport management. There are aviation degrees offered; however, don't worry about the Australian Universities offering an aviation degree, they get you nowhere any more because they are crap.
For aspiring airline pilots you would be best off by learning to fly and then study aviation to the internationally recognized JAR-FCL competencies. Which Univeresities? Lund (Sweden with a branch in the USA) , Embry-Riddle in the USA, Cranfield University in Oxford (UK) etc. That's where international airlines send their cadets.
Don't fall for the flashy advertisements showing B747 flight decks and fellows in uniform telling you "enrol with us and that seat in the B747 is yours". Don't fall for it, that's bull.... A CPL and a CIR (ME) will NOT put you in line for an airline job. Sorry. 3,000 hours and actually hoilding the ATP won't either. You have already adopted GA habits making unsuitable for making money for an airline using tools such as B747 or Airbus (even stated by QANTAS in aviation magazines several years ago).
If you want to be an airline pilot then get yourself a degree, either a BSc involving electronic engineering as well as transport management. There are aviation degrees offered; however, don't worry about the Australian Universities offering an aviation degree, they get you nowhere any more because they are crap.
For aspiring airline pilots you would be best off by learning to fly and then study aviation to the internationally recognized JAR-FCL competencies. Which Univeresities? Lund (Sweden with a branch in the USA) , Embry-Riddle in the USA, Cranfield University in Oxford (UK) etc. That's where international airlines send their cadets.
Downburst
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with this statement because it is rubbish. Australian and most Asian carriers have not gone down the road of the US counterparts in requiring you to have a university degree. I remember similar statements being made 20 years ago that if you don’t have a degree your chances of getting into the airlines in the future will be bleak. If you have one it certainly isn’t a hindrance but doesn’t give you any more of a chance of getting into an airline than someone that doesn’t have one. All you require is a pass in year 12 maths, physics and English and the appropriate flying hours and qualifications. That’s what it was 20 years ago when I got into flying and that’s what it is today.
Again rubbish. Airlines in this region want you to have an ICAO recognised licence. Whether you got this in Australia, New Zealand the US etc is irrelevant to them, as long it can be converted to the national equivalent. If you have studied at one of the Uni’s below is again irrelevant. What they want to see is that you meet their minimum requirements experience wise and hold the relevant licences. Some airlines in Aus may also require that you hold an Aus ATPL without exemptions.
QF, SQ, CX and KA don't send their cadets there. Infact none of these airlines send any of their students to any university.
If you want to be an airline pilot then get yourself a degree, either a BSc involving electronic engineering as well as transport management.
For aspiring airline pilots you would be best off by learning to fly and then study aviation to the internationally recognized JAR-FCL competencies.
Which Univeresities? Lund (Sweden with a branch in the USA) , Embry-Riddle in the USA, Cranfield University in Oxford (UK) etc. That's where international airlines send their cadets.
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Phew!!!......I think Titan is the only one left on this site with any sense....listen to yourselves....I thought this was the Dununda section not the 'I'm a whinging Pom" section.
Need a degree???bollocks.
Too much bush time??? bollocks.
What you need is a good attitude and the ability to socialise and communicate with an ausi bush-man just as easily as a sydney businessman. Add to that the ability to keep your chin up and have fun for the few years that it takes to reach the airlines and your away.
Just remember....airline careers aren't supposed to be easy to get, they won't be handed to you on a plate like your game-boy or nintendo was. Maybe you just don't have the right skills for the market at the moment, maybe you do but you're lazy,maybe you should b#gga off to a community and wash the local 206 for three months and see if that helps.
PS.....I work full time at woolworths.
Need a degree???bollocks.
Too much bush time??? bollocks.
What you need is a good attitude and the ability to socialise and communicate with an ausi bush-man just as easily as a sydney businessman. Add to that the ability to keep your chin up and have fun for the few years that it takes to reach the airlines and your away.
Just remember....airline careers aren't supposed to be easy to get, they won't be handed to you on a plate like your game-boy or nintendo was. Maybe you just don't have the right skills for the market at the moment, maybe you do but you're lazy,maybe you should b#gga off to a community and wash the local 206 for three months and see if that helps.
PS.....I work full time at woolworths.
