Advise For Students
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One argument that everyone seems to forget when sledging the value of degrees...
We all know that QF, SQ, CX and KA don't 'require'a degree, only a pass in year 12 maths, english and physics (or equialent). The recrutiment info of QF also states that all that is required is a mere 500 hours in command to be employed.
How many pilots are getting employed with this bare minimum? Very few if any. But when it comes to education many seem to think that having the 'bare minimum' is fine and all that is necessary.
Just my 2 cents worth, but an aspiring professional pilot needs to look at the big picture of oppurtunities and resources available to them...
We all know that QF, SQ, CX and KA don't 'require'a degree, only a pass in year 12 maths, english and physics (or equialent). The recrutiment info of QF also states that all that is required is a mere 500 hours in command to be employed.
How many pilots are getting employed with this bare minimum? Very few if any. But when it comes to education many seem to think that having the 'bare minimum' is fine and all that is necessary.
Just my 2 cents worth, but an aspiring professional pilot needs to look at the big picture of oppurtunities and resources available to them...
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I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. It's not a matter of having the bare minimum or not for education.
It is very different to bare minimum for hours. You say how many pilots are getting employed with the bare minimums (500 hrs for QF), yes not many BUT I'm asking you now, how many pilots are getting employed with 1500 hrs or more WITH the bare minimum for their education (just HSC)?
Why study for a degree if your goal is to become a pilot? Why waste 3 years studying for a degree that you don't need when you can use this time to look for a job or build hours?
This comparison is always used but it's nothing but the truth, if someone had a degree of some sort with 1000 hrs experience and another with no degree but 3000 hrs of experience, which one would the airline choose? Obviously the one with more FLYING experience.
A degree may give you something to fall back on but why waste time, money and effort if what you really want to do is fly? You'd be better off obtaining a degree after by distance education.
Just my 2cents worth
It is very different to bare minimum for hours. You say how many pilots are getting employed with the bare minimums (500 hrs for QF), yes not many BUT I'm asking you now, how many pilots are getting employed with 1500 hrs or more WITH the bare minimum for their education (just HSC)?
Why study for a degree if your goal is to become a pilot? Why waste 3 years studying for a degree that you don't need when you can use this time to look for a job or build hours?
This comparison is always used but it's nothing but the truth, if someone had a degree of some sort with 1000 hrs experience and another with no degree but 3000 hrs of experience, which one would the airline choose? Obviously the one with more FLYING experience.
A degree may give you something to fall back on but why waste time, money and effort if what you really want to do is fly? You'd be better off obtaining a degree after by distance education.
Just my 2cents worth
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A333 you've raised some good points there and I see where your coming from. My original post was just giving some more perspective to the context of a degree.
I also have to disagree with some of what you have raised. If all you want to do is fly then I totally agree with you saying a degree is pointless. A degree will do nothing to help an aspiring commercial pilot land a first job or second job.
It is if and when this pilot is really seeking this airline job that I think a degree is of great benefit. Its a bit narrow minded to simply say that all an airline wants is someone with more flying experience than the next bloke. An airline in recruiting pilots is looking for more than simply a 'pilot', as you would know there are many facets to this job simply beyond flying an aeroplane. A degree may not teach you all this but it does demonstrate to an employer an ability to learn and apply ones self to a task.
I dont see it as 3 wasted years but 3 years of study incorporated life experience delivering often a more mature and well rounded individual.
Anyway, thats enough from me this topic has been done to death on these forums best just to form your own ideas from the dozens of opinions out there on this matter!
I also have to disagree with some of what you have raised. If all you want to do is fly then I totally agree with you saying a degree is pointless. A degree will do nothing to help an aspiring commercial pilot land a first job or second job.
It is if and when this pilot is really seeking this airline job that I think a degree is of great benefit. Its a bit narrow minded to simply say that all an airline wants is someone with more flying experience than the next bloke. An airline in recruiting pilots is looking for more than simply a 'pilot', as you would know there are many facets to this job simply beyond flying an aeroplane. A degree may not teach you all this but it does demonstrate to an employer an ability to learn and apply ones self to a task.
I dont see it as 3 wasted years but 3 years of study incorporated life experience delivering often a more mature and well rounded individual.
Anyway, thats enough from me this topic has been done to death on these forums best just to form your own ideas from the dozens of opinions out there on this matter!
Vetical Limit
The stark reality is that most direct entry pilots in the company that I work for (CX), don’t have a degree. Criteria used predominantly for selection for interview is aviation background and experience. Education is looked at but as a screening devise only. As long as one has the minimum educational requirements, they pass this first screening process. Someone with a degree isn’t placed up on any pedestal. They simply pass the first screening process, just like someone with a pass in year 12 or equivalent. The Cadets though generally do and for some reason they predominantly seem to have engineering degrees of some persuasion or other. As my company completely pays for the cadets training, I can understand them wanting to see the cadet has a history of proven successful study habits. From discussions with my mates at QF and DJ most direct entry pilots there don’t seem to have degrees either. DJ doesn’t have cadets but QF does but I am unsure how they run their cadet program.
The stark reality is that most direct entry pilots in the company that I work for (CX), don’t have a degree. Criteria used predominantly for selection for interview is aviation background and experience. Education is looked at but as a screening devise only. As long as one has the minimum educational requirements, they pass this first screening process. Someone with a degree isn’t placed up on any pedestal. They simply pass the first screening process, just like someone with a pass in year 12 or equivalent. The Cadets though generally do and for some reason they predominantly seem to have engineering degrees of some persuasion or other. As my company completely pays for the cadets training, I can understand them wanting to see the cadet has a history of proven successful study habits. From discussions with my mates at QF and DJ most direct entry pilots there don’t seem to have degrees either. DJ doesn’t have cadets but QF does but I am unsure how they run their cadet program.
What type of degree are we talking about here people? A dedicated integrated Aviation degree or just some engineering or Arts degree?
Obviously the latter two will have no benefit to a pilot but are all the comments above directed at the Aviation degree's?
Obviously the latter two will have no benefit to a pilot but are all the comments above directed at the Aviation degree's?
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Chadzat...."a dedicated intergrated aviation degree or just some engineering or arts degree". There are degrees and then there are degrees. A friend of mine just a got a teaching degree which was an absolute joke and I would be ashamed to have it after my name. A science degree or an engineering degree however has basic core matarial and standards and has not changed too radically over the years. They are worlds apart with respect to dedication/effort/basic IQ required to achieve them. I like to think of them as "soft degrees" and "hard degrees". A dedicated integrated aviation degree is definately "semi-soft" and "just an engineering degree" would stand you in much better sted.
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Gotta go....the shelves need stocking in aisle 12.
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A degree may not teach you all this but it does demonstrate to an employer an ability to learn and apply ones self to a task.
I dont see it as 3 wasted years but 3 years of study incorporated life experience delivering often a more mature and well rounded individual.
Obviously a degree does not hurt but I don't see how it could be a benefit either. The only benefit I see is something to fall back on if eg. you lose your medical.
As 404 Titan said above, the application forms are not seperated. If you've passed the minimum requirements, then I think having a degree or not doesn't really make a difference. However, we are all entitled to our opinions so I respect what you say Vertical Limit, I guess it depends on each individual.
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Spent well over a decade in the "bush" in more countries than you can poke a stick at. Came out of it with a stack of licenses and experience on stuff from 172s to C130s.
No degree, never a problem. Working for my second major carrier now, from which i hope to retire (not too soon mind you). My second career was taxi driver which took me all of a week to learn and came in handy on a few occasions.
IF, per-chance, i wish to go live in HI or CA or one of the 50-odd States i will apply to do a corresponence degree from one of those oh so "crap" universities back in AUS. Believe my experience gets me credits which will leave about 2 years of study. Hey if i get bored i may just do it anyway- doesn't cost much- but its not a priority for me. Launching 300 or so mostly innocent souls into the air and bringing them safely back to terrafirma is.
After 2/2 successful airline interviews, what do i think "they" are looking for? They want to see you've put in the hard work to get where you are (this can include a uni degree), your resume is not BS (ie you know your sh!t and can perform it in the sim) and that they'll be able to spend long hours with you in a small room without feeling the irresistable urge to headbutt you.
The rest is minimums.
HJ
BTW the only doors that a JAR license opens (that others won't) are EU/UK ones. Unless you want to eat smelly frog cheese or freeze with the Pome's then forget it.
No degree, never a problem. Working for my second major carrier now, from which i hope to retire (not too soon mind you). My second career was taxi driver which took me all of a week to learn and came in handy on a few occasions.
IF, per-chance, i wish to go live in HI or CA or one of the 50-odd States i will apply to do a corresponence degree from one of those oh so "crap" universities back in AUS. Believe my experience gets me credits which will leave about 2 years of study. Hey if i get bored i may just do it anyway- doesn't cost much- but its not a priority for me. Launching 300 or so mostly innocent souls into the air and bringing them safely back to terrafirma is.
After 2/2 successful airline interviews, what do i think "they" are looking for? They want to see you've put in the hard work to get where you are (this can include a uni degree), your resume is not BS (ie you know your sh!t and can perform it in the sim) and that they'll be able to spend long hours with you in a small room without feeling the irresistable urge to headbutt you.
The rest is minimums.
HJ
BTW the only doors that a JAR license opens (that others won't) are EU/UK ones. Unless you want to eat smelly frog cheese or freeze with the Pome's then forget it.
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degree or no degree
Herc Jerk is correct.
From personal experience, a degree or post grad degrees, do not help your chances in GA in Australia. Forget Aviation degrees, Forget MBAs - no-one gives a toss.
I don't know whether a degree hinders an airline application in Australia, but if the attitudes are anything like GA, forget it.
If you have one you are probably better off not putting it on your GA pilot CV, just like it's better not to put your CPL on your Coles résumé.
cjam this is just cr@p... just about any University degree has substance in it. Very few degrees are soft. Different fields require different challenges. Some degree may be more relevant than others to any given field of work. (Some degrees even help you learn to spell “stead” and “definitely”!!!)
Some Aviation degrees did have a lot of relevant substance in them- but they are a thing of the past now. Airlines don't care about them - and airlines have the real buying power.
Some Aviation degrees were not in any way soft and they were more relevant to Aviation than an Eng degree.
The difference is...an Eng degree allows you to be an Engineer instead of a pilot after you graduate- very useful for a lot of graduates who don't get an airline gig for whatever reason.
The point is... in Aviation, unless you want to be an Air Traffic Controller, a degree is next to useless ‘Dunnunda’ and may only be good for what scatboy3 said.
(C'mon someone comment on my incorrect grammar or pick me up on a spelling mistake...pleazzzze...)
From personal experience, a degree or post grad degrees, do not help your chances in GA in Australia. Forget Aviation degrees, Forget MBAs - no-one gives a toss.
I don't know whether a degree hinders an airline application in Australia, but if the attitudes are anything like GA, forget it.
If you have one you are probably better off not putting it on your GA pilot CV, just like it's better not to put your CPL on your Coles résumé.
I like to think of them as "soft degrees" and "hard degrees". A dedicated integrated aviation degree is definately "semi-soft" and "just an engineering degree" would stand you in much better sted.
Some Aviation degrees did have a lot of relevant substance in them- but they are a thing of the past now. Airlines don't care about them - and airlines have the real buying power.
Some Aviation degrees were not in any way soft and they were more relevant to Aviation than an Eng degree.
The difference is...an Eng degree allows you to be an Engineer instead of a pilot after you graduate- very useful for a lot of graduates who don't get an airline gig for whatever reason.
The point is... in Aviation, unless you want to be an Air Traffic Controller, a degree is next to useless ‘Dunnunda’ and may only be good for what scatboy3 said.
(C'mon someone comment on my incorrect grammar or pick me up on a spelling mistake...pleazzzze...)
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'University Degrees are a waste of time' - thats a bull***t statement if i ever heard one. The only people who say that are the ones without one.
Someone who is tertiery qualified is further educated than someone who isnt. Its as simple as that. But is this important in the aviation indusrty? Yes it is, not as much when your involved in GA, but when you get to Qantas level it is. I know of a major regional airline in Western Australia that although their minimum requirements doesnt even mention the necessity of a degree, I personally know for a fact that HR dept. who sort through the pilot applications put the ones with degrees on top of the pile. Why? Coz past experience had shown them that the pilots with the degrees are generally better suited to operating their mulit million doller equipment Why was that so? Because they are further educated. Would hospitals employ doctors without degrees? No. Do investment banks employ people without degrees? No. 30 years ago they did, but times have changed. YOu dont have to be Einstein to see that airlines are following suit. It wasnt their idea to bring university degrees into aviation, but it means they have to adapt to it. They know that someone who has one is not necessarily a better pilot than someone who doesnt, but they know that it means they are further educated. Anyone can be a pilot. Its not that hard. But not anyone can complete a degree. Anyone who cant see this fact is ignoring it, coz they're trying to defend their indecision of not undertaking a degree.
Someone who is tertiery qualified is further educated than someone who isnt. Its as simple as that. But is this important in the aviation indusrty? Yes it is, not as much when your involved in GA, but when you get to Qantas level it is. I know of a major regional airline in Western Australia that although their minimum requirements doesnt even mention the necessity of a degree, I personally know for a fact that HR dept. who sort through the pilot applications put the ones with degrees on top of the pile. Why? Coz past experience had shown them that the pilots with the degrees are generally better suited to operating their mulit million doller equipment Why was that so? Because they are further educated. Would hospitals employ doctors without degrees? No. Do investment banks employ people without degrees? No. 30 years ago they did, but times have changed. YOu dont have to be Einstein to see that airlines are following suit. It wasnt their idea to bring university degrees into aviation, but it means they have to adapt to it. They know that someone who has one is not necessarily a better pilot than someone who doesnt, but they know that it means they are further educated. Anyone can be a pilot. Its not that hard. But not anyone can complete a degree. Anyone who cant see this fact is ignoring it, coz they're trying to defend their indecision of not undertaking a degree.
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Anyone can be a pilot. Its not that hard. But not anyone can complete a degree.
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STRAIGHT FROM QF WEBSITE:
"Your subject choice and marks achieved should allow you to matriculate and be accepted into the science degree course at any major university."
"Tertiary qualifications are not CURRENTLY part of the minimum criteria to become a Qantas Pilot"
STRAIGHT FROM RAAF WEBSITE:
"Air Force does not require a degree, we find that a significant number of applicants are degree qualified".
Jeez kids, work it out for yourselves.
"Your subject choice and marks achieved should allow you to matriculate and be accepted into the science degree course at any major university."
"Tertiary qualifications are not CURRENTLY part of the minimum criteria to become a Qantas Pilot"
STRAIGHT FROM RAAF WEBSITE:
"Air Force does not require a degree, we find that a significant number of applicants are degree qualified".
Jeez kids, work it out for yourselves.
Has anyone ever considered the role that University Degrees could play in helping reverse the ever-concerning and increasingly downward trend of our conditions?
Imagine if 75% or more of new pilots entering the job market held specialised aviation degrees (or even other degrees like engineering/business). Are they likely to be happy to accept unfair wages for something they are undoubtedly well qualified to do, having spent a lot of time and money in the process? I think not.
One would assume they would have picked up enough skills in their 3 year uni degree to pick up the award and say "Excuse me boss, but this is what it says I'm entitled to." I think so.
Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort. Straight away there's one way of restoring a little bit of respect and pride in our profession in the public's eye.
We need to start an upwards trend to make our profession more proud and well respected and the increase in University degree holders could well be an option.
TL (a very proud B.Av holder)
Imagine if 75% or more of new pilots entering the job market held specialised aviation degrees (or even other degrees like engineering/business). Are they likely to be happy to accept unfair wages for something they are undoubtedly well qualified to do, having spent a lot of time and money in the process? I think not.
One would assume they would have picked up enough skills in their 3 year uni degree to pick up the award and say "Excuse me boss, but this is what it says I'm entitled to." I think so.
Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort. Straight away there's one way of restoring a little bit of respect and pride in our profession in the public's eye.
We need to start an upwards trend to make our profession more proud and well respected and the increase in University degree holders could well be an option.
TL (a very proud B.Av holder)
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Well said TL and Slim, i agree with you completely!
Not speaking on behalf of other universities, but at UNSW Aviation, a high standard is demanded of flying students in order to pass. For example, licenses are not just given away like that of some other flying schools that i know of. As such, students become more disciplined and strive to achieve the best results. A high workload aids in preparing us for stresses of employment or on the flight deck.
A degree encourages a student to use his/her brain and their own initiative and i believe enables them/us to process and structure information to make decisions which may one day save 500 or so lives (for those lucky to fly the A380).
Although, I have found the degree to be very relevant, both providing insight into managing an airline or GA company and high quality training, while learning about human factors and the engineering side of aviation, I think that the personal growth achieved through attaining higher qualifications is the greatest accomplishment of all - not to mention the diversified learning and knowledge may present for an interesting convo up the front of the flying bus one day.
Haha that's my 37 cents
Not speaking on behalf of other universities, but at UNSW Aviation, a high standard is demanded of flying students in order to pass. For example, licenses are not just given away like that of some other flying schools that i know of. As such, students become more disciplined and strive to achieve the best results. A high workload aids in preparing us for stresses of employment or on the flight deck.
A degree encourages a student to use his/her brain and their own initiative and i believe enables them/us to process and structure information to make decisions which may one day save 500 or so lives (for those lucky to fly the A380).
Although, I have found the degree to be very relevant, both providing insight into managing an airline or GA company and high quality training, while learning about human factors and the engineering side of aviation, I think that the personal growth achieved through attaining higher qualifications is the greatest accomplishment of all - not to mention the diversified learning and knowledge may present for an interesting convo up the front of the flying bus one day.
Haha that's my 37 cents
Last edited by carro; 4th Jul 2005 at 06:28.
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People these days... 
Do bus drivers need degrees? Do train drivers need degrees?
Sure they're not operating million dollar machines but you're missing the point that flying has more to do with practical rather than academic. General knowledge, leadership skills, etc. will definately help. But seriously, I doubt degrees give applicants a boost. If you actually do some research, most pilots DON'T have a degree.
Even if they did, they would have probably done it by distance education . The point now is you want to build hours, not study for a medical degree and look for a bl&#dy job in Broome afterwards.
IF degrees were so important to Qantas, why don't they send their cadets to Universities? Why don't any other airlines send their cadets to universities, airlines such as Cathay Pacific, Dragonair, etc.?
IF aviation degrees were really that important, why did UWS stop their aviation degree? I'll give you a moment to THINK ABOUT IT!!
... Because not much people do their course.
As I said before, degrees will give you something to fall back on!
If you give me proof and statistics that applicants with degrees go on top of the pile, then I will believe you. If you can give me proof that applicants with degrees are more wanted than those with hours hours hours, I will go and do a degree straight away. If you can give me proof that those with degrees make better decisions than those without degrees, I will do a degree straight away.
So... from what I see, you're saying that pilots that have a uni degree make better decisions than B744, etc. CAPTAINS who don't have a degree?
Anyway, I'm out... Take it easy!
PS. Read the thread again and you'll see this is more of a discussion not arguement, I did state that it depends on each own individual.
Do bus drivers need degrees? Do train drivers need degrees?
Sure they're not operating million dollar machines but you're missing the point that flying has more to do with practical rather than academic. General knowledge, leadership skills, etc. will definately help. But seriously, I doubt degrees give applicants a boost. If you actually do some research, most pilots DON'T have a degree.
Even if they did, they would have probably done it by distance education . The point now is you want to build hours, not study for a medical degree and look for a bl&#dy job in Broome afterwards.
IF degrees were so important to Qantas, why don't they send their cadets to Universities? Why don't any other airlines send their cadets to universities, airlines such as Cathay Pacific, Dragonair, etc.?
IF aviation degrees were really that important, why did UWS stop their aviation degree? I'll give you a moment to THINK ABOUT IT!!
... Because not much people do their course.
As I said before, degrees will give you something to fall back on!
If you give me proof and statistics that applicants with degrees go on top of the pile, then I will believe you. If you can give me proof that applicants with degrees are more wanted than those with hours hours hours, I will go and do a degree straight away. If you can give me proof that those with degrees make better decisions than those without degrees, I will do a degree straight away.
So... from what I see, you're saying that pilots that have a uni degree make better decisions than B744, etc. CAPTAINS who don't have a degree?
Anyway, I'm out... Take it easy!
PS. Read the thread again and you'll see this is more of a discussion not arguement, I did state that it depends on each own individual.
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Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort. Straight away there's one way of restoring a little bit of respect and pride in our profession in the public's eye.
Imagine if 75% or more of new pilots entering the job market held specialised aviation degrees (or even other degrees like engineering/business). Are they likely to be happy to accept unfair wages for something they are undoubtedly well qualified to do, having spent a lot of time and money in the process? I think not.
We need to start an upwards trend to make our profession more proud and well respected and the increase in University degree holders could well be an option.
For this to happen airlines needed to have recomended degrees 10-15 years ago when Aviation degrees first started appearing. They didn't care then and they don't care now. All an Aviation degree means is that you've spent more time, effort and money entering the 'profession'- (so maybe you'll stick at it longer or maybe you'll get jack of it sooner??)
Many Unis have shut down their Aviation degrees because they have realised that the industry gave no support for them. The industry did not want them. If you want to know why, look at some of the opinions in this thread.
So closed down degrees have been...UWS as mentioned. RMIT (who have one of the best Aerospace Engineering degrees in the country), the list goes on and on...sure some degrees were ordinary but most had some excellent points.
Will this change? Will it take not 10 or 15 years but 20 or 25 years to turn the wheel? Or is the verdict in? Degrees are finished.
Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort.
Aaaaah! That explains a lot of things!
locusthunter,
Good to see you agreed with what I penned during my late night rant and rave. I know I am being a little optimistic, but there's no harm in trying!
A333,
A few points...where do I start?
If you class yourself equal to those types of professions, then I wish you well. There are quite a few similarities, but many more differences.
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the product they were offering didn't even come close to that being offered by their competitors. I will have you know for a fact that the number of applicants for aviation degrees in this state (NSW that is) has not gone down since UWS and Uni of Newcastle pulled the plug. Their competitor has grown in the meantime. I'll let you figure out where those students have ended up.
Well, I can see one reason why doing a Uni degree may be beneficial to someone with your grammatical skills.
I don't think anyone on these forums can answer that question, but I have always been led to believe that at QF for example, a Degree will have a positive affect on someone's overall "competitiveness", which of course takes into account all other factors including hours and flying background.
I don't think anyone has ever said that. But when you consider the number of people entering the general workforce holding tertiary degrees these days versus say 20 yrs ago, there has been a huge increase. You now need a degree to be a nurse and even a bloody cop!!! I think it's long overdue that pilots were added to the list.
Sunfish,
Thanks again for your excellent insight into the mind of a failed businessman and PPL holder. Tell someone who cares.
TL
Good to see you agreed with what I penned during my late night rant and rave. I know I am being a little optimistic, but there's no harm in trying!
A333,
A few points...where do I start?
Do bus drivers need degrees? Do train drivers need degrees?
IF aviation degrees were really that important, why did UWS stop their aviation degree? I'll give you a moment to THINK ABOUT IT!!
... Because not much people do their course
If you give me proof and statistics that applicants with degrees go on top of the pile, then I will believe you
So... from what I see, you're saying that pilots that have a uni degree make better decisions than B744, etc. CAPTAINS who don't have a degree?
Sunfish,
Thanks again for your excellent insight into the mind of a failed businessman and PPL holder. Tell someone who cares.
TL
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I will not believe any of this until I see Qantas saying that applicants require degrees to apply and when Qantas and other airlines send their cadets to universities for training.
Hmmm TL, it seems like you answered most of my questions but the most important one, why doesn't Qantas send their cadets to universities?
The fact that they don't shows that they don't really care whether pilots have degrees or not simply because they CHOOSE NOT to send THEIR cadets to universities.
Hmmm TL, it seems like you answered most of my questions but the most important one, why doesn't Qantas send their cadets to universities?
The fact that they don't shows that they don't really care whether pilots have degrees or not simply because they CHOOSE NOT to send THEIR cadets to universities.