How do you deliberately ground-loop a Cessna single?
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How do you deliberately ground-loop a Cessna single?
Without going overboard about it, it is good airmanship to keep an eye open for potential clear areas on the ground in case the engine should suddenly fail in a VFR single engine aircraft.
Flying over the suburbs of a city like Melbourne there are few open areas available apart from the occasional golf course, a few race courses and a river here and there. Ditching in a river is probably the safest bet if you can swim, that is.
That leaves innumerable sports ovals into which a competent pilot might just squeeze his Cessna single as long as he misses the telephone and power lines that festoon suburban streets - in Melbourne, anyway.
Almost certainly there is a good chance that our hero will hit the far side of the field at a fair pace and rely on his shoulder harness to save the instrument panel from being damaged by his face...
In the old days it was usual to belly land an tail-wheel type aircraft that had retractable gear, to minimise the chances of tipping upside down and for a theoretical shorter landing run. It was also easier to deliberately ground-loop those types of aircraft as some types did this quite naturally, thank you very much. RAAF Wirraway pilots will agree, I am sure.
Enter the American designed Pipers and Cessna's with their fixed tricycle landing gear and their natural stability after touch-down.
You make an accurate touch down on a playing field after engine failure over the suburbs and the far fence looms up real fast with perhaps houses just over the fence line.
You cannot retract the fixed gear, the brakes are not that effective at the relatively high speed at touch down and you need to pull up fast without hurting yourself too much. So you try to deliberately force the aircraft to ground-loop in a chosen direction to avoid the goal posts.
The question is: Should you hit one brake hard and push full forward on the control column to lift the weight of the main wheels and so pivot on the nose wheel? In other words the classic wheel barrow manoeuvre.
Or should you hit one brake hard and pull back on the stick to lift the nose wheel off the ground and thus pivot on one main wheel?
Or do you accept the inevitable impact straight ahead and apply full braking on both wheels while pulling back on the stick to ensure more efficient braking?
The subject is rarely discussed in how to fly books.
Flying over the suburbs of a city like Melbourne there are few open areas available apart from the occasional golf course, a few race courses and a river here and there. Ditching in a river is probably the safest bet if you can swim, that is.
That leaves innumerable sports ovals into which a competent pilot might just squeeze his Cessna single as long as he misses the telephone and power lines that festoon suburban streets - in Melbourne, anyway.
Almost certainly there is a good chance that our hero will hit the far side of the field at a fair pace and rely on his shoulder harness to save the instrument panel from being damaged by his face...
In the old days it was usual to belly land an tail-wheel type aircraft that had retractable gear, to minimise the chances of tipping upside down and for a theoretical shorter landing run. It was also easier to deliberately ground-loop those types of aircraft as some types did this quite naturally, thank you very much. RAAF Wirraway pilots will agree, I am sure.
Enter the American designed Pipers and Cessna's with their fixed tricycle landing gear and their natural stability after touch-down.
You make an accurate touch down on a playing field after engine failure over the suburbs and the far fence looms up real fast with perhaps houses just over the fence line.
You cannot retract the fixed gear, the brakes are not that effective at the relatively high speed at touch down and you need to pull up fast without hurting yourself too much. So you try to deliberately force the aircraft to ground-loop in a chosen direction to avoid the goal posts.
The question is: Should you hit one brake hard and push full forward on the control column to lift the weight of the main wheels and so pivot on the nose wheel? In other words the classic wheel barrow manoeuvre.
Or should you hit one brake hard and pull back on the stick to lift the nose wheel off the ground and thus pivot on one main wheel?
Or do you accept the inevitable impact straight ahead and apply full braking on both wheels while pulling back on the stick to ensure more efficient braking?
The subject is rarely discussed in how to fly books.
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DubTrub
Glide clear of what????
If GA were to follow your interesting observation we'd all be operating out of Woomera (no pun intended).
When learning to fly I had an engine partial failure, not enough to get back, but enough for my instructor to put it on a golf course.
That was Archerfield, similar incidents in Bankstown and Moorabbin show that pilots can do amazing things when they have to. I don't believe an innocent bystander has ever been killed or injured by a GA aircraft doing a forced landing.
So, with roads, footie fields, golf courses and parks, what exactly are we 'gliding clear of'.
I suggest you learn to fly and come back when you have some idea about what you ask.
BTW, are you Sun Herald, or Melbourne Age???
Centaurus, if you put her on the nosewheel you risk a flip. I'd suggest just boot most sexy rudder (remember a skid in a car, it will probably slide sideways away from the rudder you boot) and brake. It will loop OK, watch the wing doesn't dig in, a broken wing means spilled fuel in most types.
By the way, this is just me guessing
Barry.
Glide clear of what????
If GA were to follow your interesting observation we'd all be operating out of Woomera (no pun intended).
When learning to fly I had an engine partial failure, not enough to get back, but enough for my instructor to put it on a golf course.
That was Archerfield, similar incidents in Bankstown and Moorabbin show that pilots can do amazing things when they have to. I don't believe an innocent bystander has ever been killed or injured by a GA aircraft doing a forced landing.
So, with roads, footie fields, golf courses and parks, what exactly are we 'gliding clear of'.
I suggest you learn to fly and come back when you have some idea about what you ask.
BTW, are you Sun Herald, or Melbourne Age???
Centaurus, if you put her on the nosewheel you risk a flip. I'd suggest just boot most sexy rudder (remember a skid in a car, it will probably slide sideways away from the rudder you boot) and brake. It will loop OK, watch the wing doesn't dig in, a broken wing means spilled fuel in most types.
By the way, this is just me guessing
Barry.
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Centaurus raises a valid point.
Crashing is a fine art, some would say.
Few seem to really prepare for an arrival that may not be in a place of their choosing.
Regarding "glide clear", some roles will put one in the fixed wing equivilant of the "dead man's curve". That is, if the engine stops you are up against it.
Banner towing springs to mind. Low, slow, built up areas. Good luck on that one.
Crashing is a fine art, some would say.
Few seem to really prepare for an arrival that may not be in a place of their choosing.
Regarding "glide clear", some roles will put one in the fixed wing equivilant of the "dead man's curve". That is, if the engine stops you are up against it.
Banner towing springs to mind. Low, slow, built up areas. Good luck on that one.
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Centaurus
Journo scum read this
There are bar stories which tell you what to do - You have heard them - Do that - Fly the plane
In a Cessna it wouldn't have got that bad, but due to boring circumstances in a Cherokee6 I had a choice:
Go through the fence
Turn at 30+ knts
Surprisingly lucked out and did't rip the gear off
Journo scum read this
There are bar stories which tell you what to do - You have heard them - Do that - Fly the plane
In a Cessna it wouldn't have got that bad, but due to boring circumstances in a Cherokee6 I had a choice:
Go through the fence
Turn at 30+ knts
Surprisingly lucked out and did't rip the gear off
Last edited by Deaf; 9th May 2005 at 13:08.
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The river ditching doesnt sound so good, chances are you will find youself upside down on the water (for anything with fixed gear or gear out). Dont think its too easy to ground loop a tricycle but you can get a bit of sideways movement on a soft surface by use of rudder and brakes. Full back stick will indeed help keep the weight on the mains for braking. I wouldn't like to load up the nose wheel at any time let alone when trying to induce a ground loop.
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Centaurus, if it was me, I wouldn't be too capable of logical thinking in the situation. I'd have both feet jammed on the brakes with full back elevator trying to slow the aircraft as fast as possible.
In the event that an obstruction is still approaching too rapidly, I'd still have both feet firmly planted on the brakes with full back stick and trying to steer with the nosewheel. There'll still be some steering capability dependent on forward speed. I would imagine if the speed were still high enough, a bootful of rudder will have the aircraft turn sideways soon enough and possibly bury a wing if that is the intention, although I've never had the opportunity to try this.
That being said, if I couldn't steer the fuselage clear of an obstruction, I think I'd still rather take the crunch head-on rather than a posssible side-on. My seat belts were designed for a head-on restraint and there is a nice engine in front with mounts, etc that can act as a battering ram and obstruction for any extraneous materials (like goalposts, building walls and materials and trees). Passengers can bury their heads below the dash for protection. It should certainly offer better protection than a door, a side window and a wing. I can't see any benefit in turning the aircraft onto its side.
A river would be one of my last choices in an emergency with fixed gear. I'm not keen on a sudden flip at high speed, dazed and confused, upside down under water and trying to get a seat belt off and out the door and swimming in the right direction in darkness for the surface. And I'd have the benefit of some familiarity with the aircraft that my passengers wouldn't have. Not to mention the possible post-accident infections and infestations that might result from a dip in the Yarra.
You never mentioned about landing on a street or road. That would be my choice over a football field any day. If you land with the traffic, you'll touch down at the same speed or a little faster than the cars and trucks, so the drivers should have the opportunity to avoid you. Just keep a good lookout for crossing power lines. It seems to work in the US on a semi-regular basis.
"No use to try for fancy riding now.
And, Clancy, you must wheel them, try and wheel them to the right.
Ride boldly, lad, and never fear the spills,"
Just my thoughts...
In the event that an obstruction is still approaching too rapidly, I'd still have both feet firmly planted on the brakes with full back stick and trying to steer with the nosewheel. There'll still be some steering capability dependent on forward speed. I would imagine if the speed were still high enough, a bootful of rudder will have the aircraft turn sideways soon enough and possibly bury a wing if that is the intention, although I've never had the opportunity to try this.
That being said, if I couldn't steer the fuselage clear of an obstruction, I think I'd still rather take the crunch head-on rather than a posssible side-on. My seat belts were designed for a head-on restraint and there is a nice engine in front with mounts, etc that can act as a battering ram and obstruction for any extraneous materials (like goalposts, building walls and materials and trees). Passengers can bury their heads below the dash for protection. It should certainly offer better protection than a door, a side window and a wing. I can't see any benefit in turning the aircraft onto its side.
A river would be one of my last choices in an emergency with fixed gear. I'm not keen on a sudden flip at high speed, dazed and confused, upside down under water and trying to get a seat belt off and out the door and swimming in the right direction in darkness for the surface. And I'd have the benefit of some familiarity with the aircraft that my passengers wouldn't have. Not to mention the possible post-accident infections and infestations that might result from a dip in the Yarra.
You never mentioned about landing on a street or road. That would be my choice over a football field any day. If you land with the traffic, you'll touch down at the same speed or a little faster than the cars and trucks, so the drivers should have the opportunity to avoid you. Just keep a good lookout for crossing power lines. It seems to work in the US on a semi-regular basis.
"No use to try for fancy riding now.
And, Clancy, you must wheel them, try and wheel them to the right.
Ride boldly, lad, and never fear the spills,"
Just my thoughts...
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...naoseconds
Lowdown, your normally walking away from the wreck before you start to think about things. All very well to theorize but in the heat of the moment it just happens.
OK, to setup a good skid, you have to lose traction. the only way to do that would be to lock both mains up as you initiated a turn. a bit of power would be good here, but there wouldn't be any, which is why you are landing in the first place.
just think back to when you used to do handbrake slides in your ground based chariot. as long as you completely lost traction with back wheels, you can't get into too much trouble, even on bitumen. we used to do them in our utes on single lane bitumen roads, when we were young and stoopid.
i have heard of a blokes doing the same in C210 on a greasy dirt runway.
just think back to when you used to do handbrake slides in your ground based chariot. as long as you completely lost traction with back wheels, you can't get into too much trouble, even on bitumen. we used to do them in our utes on single lane bitumen roads, when we were young and stoopid.
i have heard of a blokes doing the same in C210 on a greasy dirt runway.
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This actually happened to a friend!
This event happened to a friend of mine while I was on board, some facts have been ommitted to protect the innocent/guilty!
We had been caught by a bit of wx so decided to land and wait it out. We were landing on a one way strip with about a 20-30kt tailwind, with short, wet grass to boot. During the final stages of the approach,and because of the tailwind, we floated down the runway, trying to put it on, but with the high groundspeed, it bounced a couple of times. Finally on, max brakes were applied, which of course was like braking on ice and we careened towards the end of the runway with a 2ft ditch, fence and road immediately at the end. At about a 100meters or so to go, it was plainly obvious we were never going to stop on time, so my mate applies full right rudder and brake, and next thing I see is the hangar going by sideways in the front window! I waited for the leg to break and the wing to dig in but we did a complete 180 and then he gave it full power and we came to a stop about 20 meters or so from the end. This is in a 172 by the way. It was very coolheaded thinking, and he told me afterwards he had read about a guy who did it in a C180 and thought he might as well try it! Of course, in hindsight we should have landed into wind with the strength of it, but we had the one-way mindset so accepted the tailwind.
We had been caught by a bit of wx so decided to land and wait it out. We were landing on a one way strip with about a 20-30kt tailwind, with short, wet grass to boot. During the final stages of the approach,and because of the tailwind, we floated down the runway, trying to put it on, but with the high groundspeed, it bounced a couple of times. Finally on, max brakes were applied, which of course was like braking on ice and we careened towards the end of the runway with a 2ft ditch, fence and road immediately at the end. At about a 100meters or so to go, it was plainly obvious we were never going to stop on time, so my mate applies full right rudder and brake, and next thing I see is the hangar going by sideways in the front window! I waited for the leg to break and the wing to dig in but we did a complete 180 and then he gave it full power and we came to a stop about 20 meters or so from the end. This is in a 172 by the way. It was very coolheaded thinking, and he told me afterwards he had read about a guy who did it in a C180 and thought he might as well try it! Of course, in hindsight we should have landed into wind with the strength of it, but we had the one-way mindset so accepted the tailwind.
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Bottom line is,
1/ Who here has actually had to do it?
2/ Done it and walked away from it?
If yes and yes, then your method was probably pretty good.
And if you have been in it longer than ten minutes, chances are you have done it, come close to it, or seen it.
1/ Who here has actually had to do it?
2/ Done it and walked away from it?
If yes and yes, then your method was probably pretty good.
And if you have been in it longer than ten minutes, chances are you have done it, come close to it, or seen it.
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I had a situation once where I landed on a short ag strip in a 172. Turned out I misjudged the wind, and the fact the strip was wet, and nearly ended up through the end fence amongst some cows.
After touchdown and after I realsied the Sh!t was about to hit the fan big time, I was hard on both brakes, control column all the way back and alternating from full right to full left rudder. The aircraft gently skidded sideways and suddenly stopped very quickly. Came to rest few meters from a fence. Was just left with a bit of grass in the spats!
Oh and the flap was up soon after touchdown.
6080ft
After touchdown and after I realsied the Sh!t was about to hit the fan big time, I was hard on both brakes, control column all the way back and alternating from full right to full left rudder. The aircraft gently skidded sideways and suddenly stopped very quickly. Came to rest few meters from a fence. Was just left with a bit of grass in the spats!
Oh and the flap was up soon after touchdown.
6080ft
