Why does QANTAS have Cadets???
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Why does QANTAS have Cadets???
Ok before anyone tells me I am bitter and twisted because I never got in to Qantas... Let it be known that I have never, nor will I apply to Qantas....However if my Dad was a senior pilot and I had the choice when I was young of course I would have been one.
But I have to ask you this question???
Why Does Qantas have Cadets????
As all I could come up with was that its an easy way for senior Captains to get there kids in!
I thought that CADETS were meant for the times when there was a shortage of pilots????......
So I also hear that these days the cadets are getting a few years experience with Airnorth or the like after they have their Commercial licence to get experience...or instructing at GFS?... So what is the difference of getting GA people from the start like REAL airlines do??
AND
Why with Airnorth and not Eastern???........Gee isn't it hard enough for Eastern to find suitable pilots??......
AND
Why can't QANTAS make all new recruits including CADETS start at EAstern before becoming a SO??????.....Then people would have no hesitation on paying this silly amount for a DASH 8 type rating..
ALSO
I believe that QANTAS is making a PROFIT out of CADETS so in a way these guys are paying for a job which is kind of making them a SCAB.
So please tell me why when there is so many suitable people out there willing to fly for Qantas, they are still training Cadets???.. Even when it comes to FO or Capt upgrades these CADETS take more to train in sim sessions etc??....So what REALLY IS THE ADVANTAGE OF CADETS??????
PLEASE help me as I am confused.........
But I have to ask you this question???
Why Does Qantas have Cadets????
As all I could come up with was that its an easy way for senior Captains to get there kids in!
I thought that CADETS were meant for the times when there was a shortage of pilots????......
So I also hear that these days the cadets are getting a few years experience with Airnorth or the like after they have their Commercial licence to get experience...or instructing at GFS?... So what is the difference of getting GA people from the start like REAL airlines do??
AND
Why with Airnorth and not Eastern???........Gee isn't it hard enough for Eastern to find suitable pilots??......
AND
Why can't QANTAS make all new recruits including CADETS start at EAstern before becoming a SO??????.....Then people would have no hesitation on paying this silly amount for a DASH 8 type rating..
ALSO
I believe that QANTAS is making a PROFIT out of CADETS so in a way these guys are paying for a job which is kind of making them a SCAB.
So please tell me why when there is so many suitable people out there willing to fly for Qantas, they are still training Cadets???.. Even when it comes to FO or Capt upgrades these CADETS take more to train in sim sessions etc??....So what REALLY IS THE ADVANTAGE OF CADETS??????
PLEASE help me as I am confused.........
Last edited by Baron Captain ?; 14th Apr 2005 at 08:17.
Nunc est bibendum
Baron, for an answer, go to the 'search' function and do a search for 'cadets' or somthing like that. You'll find the identical question and a bunch of answers (whether you think they are valid or not is up to you to work out) but this one has been done to death for a long time.
Short version. Cadets from early '90s was when a pilot shortage was looming. QF signed contract just before the '89 dispute and so proceeded with half the course. 90ish cadets from about 97 onward were fulfilling the residual numbers left over from that early course. Since then, dunno.
However, to present an alternative view, how about this. Perhaps it is a similar principle to the RAAF. Get them in early. Inculcate them with the culture that you want, train them the way that you want with the attitudes that you want. Get them to hang around for long periods of time due to loyalty to the company that gave them a break and ultimately have a 'pool' of people joining at a young age that should provide an effective and experienenced pool of pilots that may provide a few good'uns for possible management slots.
Interesting though that although the principles are similar to the RAAF, I've yet to see a thread raging against the ADFs selection of what is essentially a 'cadet' for their flight training. I wonder why that is!
(Yes, I'm an ex cadet. Qantas 8 graduating AAC Sep '92. F/O for 7 1/2 years. First bloke off our course starts command training with AO in Jun. I wonder if the sky will fall then!
)
Cadets are highly motivated, capable pilots. Out of the few dozen that I've flown with I've come across one that I would put in that category and he had toned down by the next time I flew with him. As to the myth that they are 'rich', a few that I know pretty well had their parents extend the mortgages on the houses to pay for the cadetship and the cadets themselves are STILL paying it off in return.
Short version. Cadets from early '90s was when a pilot shortage was looming. QF signed contract just before the '89 dispute and so proceeded with half the course. 90ish cadets from about 97 onward were fulfilling the residual numbers left over from that early course. Since then, dunno.
However, to present an alternative view, how about this. Perhaps it is a similar principle to the RAAF. Get them in early. Inculcate them with the culture that you want, train them the way that you want with the attitudes that you want. Get them to hang around for long periods of time due to loyalty to the company that gave them a break and ultimately have a 'pool' of people joining at a young age that should provide an effective and experienenced pool of pilots that may provide a few good'uns for possible management slots.
Interesting though that although the principles are similar to the RAAF, I've yet to see a thread raging against the ADFs selection of what is essentially a 'cadet' for their flight training. I wonder why that is!
(Yes, I'm an ex cadet. Qantas 8 graduating AAC Sep '92. F/O for 7 1/2 years. First bloke off our course starts command training with AO in Jun. I wonder if the sky will fall then!
)Cadets are highly motivated, capable pilots. Out of the few dozen that I've flown with I've come across one that I would put in that category and he had toned down by the next time I flew with him. As to the myth that they are 'rich', a few that I know pretty well had their parents extend the mortgages on the houses to pay for the cadetship and the cadets themselves are STILL paying it off in return.
Last edited by Keg; 14th Apr 2005 at 08:52.
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KEG
I didn't want this to get personal... So lets not go there... OK, I was a little general and YES I have met a few cadets in the past.. Maybe i just met the wrong ones...OK
BUT
I really aren't questioning what type of people they are, but merely wondering why QANTAS is still wasting there time with CADETS....When I know that there is many suitable applicants out there wanting to work for QANTAS that I KNOW CAN DO the JOB at least the same standard if not BETTER than a CADET...
BUT
The old train them from scratch just won't work for me anymore since the cadets are now out getting experience for a few years before they work for QANTAS..
I JUST THOUGHT MAYBE A MANAGEMENT PERSON OR THE LIKE COULD GIVE ME A GOOD ANSWER WITHOUT GETTING PERSONAL ABOUT IT........
I can unerstand if there was a shortage of suitable pilots but I know that there isn't at this present time....
PLEASE EXPLAIN
I didn't want this to get personal... So lets not go there... OK, I was a little general and YES I have met a few cadets in the past.. Maybe i just met the wrong ones...OK
BUT
I really aren't questioning what type of people they are, but merely wondering why QANTAS is still wasting there time with CADETS....When I know that there is many suitable applicants out there wanting to work for QANTAS that I KNOW CAN DO the JOB at least the same standard if not BETTER than a CADET...
BUT
The old train them from scratch just won't work for me anymore since the cadets are now out getting experience for a few years before they work for QANTAS..
I JUST THOUGHT MAYBE A MANAGEMENT PERSON OR THE LIKE COULD GIVE ME A GOOD ANSWER WITHOUT GETTING PERSONAL ABOUT IT........
I can unerstand if there was a shortage of suitable pilots but I know that there isn't at this present time....
PLEASE EXPLAIN
Nunc est bibendum
Baron, you don't want this to get personal? YOU made that way when you started witih comments about 'snotty nosed rich kids'. You're naieve in the extreme not to expect a strongly worded response to something as silly as that! If you'd like to go back and edit your original comments and make a post that is more relevant then perhaps I'll edit my comments as well!
so, let's address your 'BUTS'
1. You were questioning what types of people they were:
Overt implication that cadets have an easier 'in' than other DE. They do not. They have to pass the same psych, different skills, no sim of course but then get a 12 month training program to prove themselves rather than an hour sim! Nothing 'easy' about it!
I addressed this one in my first response but you can see why I responded the way I did.
2. I already answerd your second 'BUT'. Again:
See my points in my last post. QF like what they get. Good return of service, motivated individuals, company loyalty, people inculcated in the 'company' for a long period before hand. All of these at the same skill level, if not better than a DE candidate!
3. The 'train them from scratch' argument is still a valid argument even with the CIPP (Cadet Industry Placement Program). You can still achieve all of the stated aims whilst sending them elsewhere for a bit!
So, a question from a slightly different perspective.
Why does the RAAF continue wasting their time with cadets when there are lots of qualified pilots and they could cut down the training time and reduce the failure rate?
Finally, I don't expect that you'll get a management response. See my first point about the 'personal' bit.
I hope that helps to explain. If you won't take it from me, I doubt you're gonig to take it from anyone else either!
so, let's address your 'BUTS'
1. You were questioning what types of people they were:
...an easy way for senior Captains to get there kids in!
Who actually enjoys flying with these Cadets???...As I'm sure they are mostly rich little snotty nosed kids that think there **** don't stink!?
2. I already answerd your second 'BUT'. Again:
...why QANTAS is still wasting there time with CADETS...
3. The 'train them from scratch' argument is still a valid argument even with the CIPP (Cadet Industry Placement Program). You can still achieve all of the stated aims whilst sending them elsewhere for a bit!
So, a question from a slightly different perspective.
Why does the RAAF continue wasting their time with cadets when there are lots of qualified pilots and they could cut down the training time and reduce the failure rate?
Finally, I don't expect that you'll get a management response. See my first point about the 'personal' bit.
I hope that helps to explain. If you won't take it from me, I doubt you're gonig to take it from anyone else either!
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Hey guys and girls this might be a lil bit off the topic, but im thinking bout applying for next years cadetship, ive read the information regarding the 2005 course on the website. In browsing thru the info, i realise that only bout half of the total number of applicatnts who met the min. criteria were offered progression onto the next stage. What is it that they will be looking at? Just school grades? Are they interested in anything else? Does having PPL or GFPT make u stand out more? How bout completing a uni aviation degree?
Basically how do they deem an applicant to be more competative than another?
Basically how do they deem an applicant to be more competative than another?
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JetA_OK
I have never applied to QANTAS and never will.
I have never brought this subject up before even in my old Cooly days!!.... I know its their train set and thats fine...
Keg
Don't they get Loyalty and great return of service from all direct entry Second Officers from GA too???
Quote"QF like what they get. Good return of service, motivated individuals, company loyalty, people inculcated in the 'company' for a long period before hand. All of these at the same skill level"
DON'T THEY GET ALL OF THIS FROM EX GA DRIVERS TOO???
I can personally tell the difference from a CADET to an EX BUSH GA hack when they are flying....Just with simple decisions and the way they fly when its their leg.
AND
I never brought up the RAAF so stop mentioning them.... They have always done it that way and they don't pay for their jobs or training either... So its just a different subject altogether..
So I am not saying that CADETS are all useless.... Just that given the choice... If it wasn't some gungho **** hot Cadet who topped the class, I would ALWAYS prefer an EX GA BUSH Hack as part of my operating crew to fly with...
WHATS YOUR CHOICE?????
I have never applied to QANTAS and never will.
I have never brought this subject up before even in my old Cooly days!!.... I know its their train set and thats fine...
Keg
Don't they get Loyalty and great return of service from all direct entry Second Officers from GA too???
Quote"QF like what they get. Good return of service, motivated individuals, company loyalty, people inculcated in the 'company' for a long period before hand. All of these at the same skill level"
DON'T THEY GET ALL OF THIS FROM EX GA DRIVERS TOO???
I can personally tell the difference from a CADET to an EX BUSH GA hack when they are flying....Just with simple decisions and the way they fly when its their leg.
AND
I never brought up the RAAF so stop mentioning them.... They have always done it that way and they don't pay for their jobs or training either... So its just a different subject altogether..
So I am not saying that CADETS are all useless.... Just that given the choice... If it wasn't some gungho **** hot Cadet who topped the class, I would ALWAYS prefer an EX GA BUSH Hack as part of my operating crew to fly with...
WHATS YOUR CHOICE?????
Nunc est bibendum
Baron, if you have a look at the retention rates of cadets and those employed from GA or RAAF then you'll find the answer about 'loyalty'. I know you didn't bring up the RAAF issue. I know that I did. What I was doing was illustrating that the aims fo both perhaps are the same!
As for choosing the crew members? I wish I had that choice. There are a few that I'd put on that list- more non cadets than cadets too let me tell you. Personally, I'd take someone competent no matter what their back ground. I've also found that the background often doesn't matter when it comes to the level of support that you get. Perhaps it's me!
The extra costs for upgrades and endorsement training is also a myth. The rate is about the same for direct entry upgrades (I'll put my hand up as having struggled a little to start off with, I did one extra sim and a two day domestic trip extra. Many of my compatriots did not require anything additional).
As for choosing the crew members? I wish I had that choice. There are a few that I'd put on that list- more non cadets than cadets too let me tell you. Personally, I'd take someone competent no matter what their back ground. I've also found that the background often doesn't matter when it comes to the level of support that you get. Perhaps it's me!
The extra costs for upgrades and endorsement training is also a myth. The rate is about the same for direct entry upgrades (I'll put my hand up as having struggled a little to start off with, I did one extra sim and a two day domestic trip extra. Many of my compatriots did not require anything additional).
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Keg
Your right!, We all wish we had the choice of who and who not to fly with..
I also understand that alot of how the pilot performs comes from the person themselves and not whether they are a CADET or EX GA HACK, however I certainly can tell the difference with the ones I have flown with anyway..As the CADETS just do some wird stuff out of left wing... However there has been some of this behaviour with great experienced EX GA HACKS TOO... Just not as much...
So I guess will conclude that the only reason QANTAS has cadets is because they make a profit out of them!
But wouldn't life be so much better for them if they sent them all to EASTERN for a few years instead of the likes of instructing at GFS or FO'ing at AIRNORTH??????????????
Better still in the ideal world ALL new QANTAS hirees would start at EASTERN before progressing through the ranks.
As if they are sending the cadets off to build experience before they join, then what really is the difference of them getting GA drivers?..besides there training at GFS??........Oh thats right its the money they give QANTAS for the priviledge
Your right!, We all wish we had the choice of who and who not to fly with..
I also understand that alot of how the pilot performs comes from the person themselves and not whether they are a CADET or EX GA HACK, however I certainly can tell the difference with the ones I have flown with anyway..As the CADETS just do some wird stuff out of left wing... However there has been some of this behaviour with great experienced EX GA HACKS TOO... Just not as much...
So I guess will conclude that the only reason QANTAS has cadets is because they make a profit out of them!
But wouldn't life be so much better for them if they sent them all to EASTERN for a few years instead of the likes of instructing at GFS or FO'ing at AIRNORTH??????????????
Better still in the ideal world ALL new QANTAS hirees would start at EASTERN before progressing through the ranks.
As if they are sending the cadets off to build experience before they join, then what really is the difference of them getting GA drivers?..besides there training at GFS??........Oh thats right its the money they give QANTAS for the priviledge
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I really don't think anyone should have a problem with the Cadet Program. A company like Qantas should have a valid way to compare different strategies for crewing an aircraft. Keg has touched on an important issue regarding lifestyle and culture.
At my employer here Stateside, we have furloughed pilots from various major airlines and they have distinctively different personalities in the cockpit, largely based upon the corporate culture of their old employer.
This has sometimes proved quite difficult in the training environment and even in the way that they communicate with maintenance and use their skills in customer service.
The problems that we see very rarely have to do with physical handling of the aircraft.
I know two cadets that were sons of QF crew at Sydney Tech. They had excellent scholastics and were obviously aware of the lifestyle choice they were embarking on. That's half the equation right there!
At my employer here Stateside, we have furloughed pilots from various major airlines and they have distinctively different personalities in the cockpit, largely based upon the corporate culture of their old employer.
This has sometimes proved quite difficult in the training environment and even in the way that they communicate with maintenance and use their skills in customer service.
The problems that we see very rarely have to do with physical handling of the aircraft.
I know two cadets that were sons of QF crew at Sydney Tech. They had excellent scholastics and were obviously aware of the lifestyle choice they were embarking on. That's half the equation right there!
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What is all this about retention rates? Since when does QF have a retention problem? Is the amount of pilots leaving for other airlines even statistically significant?
If QF have retention issues then perhaps they could deal with it by treating the pilot body in such a way as to inspire loyalty, rather than via the cadet scheme. And if pilots leaving for elsewhere sends a message about pay and conditions, then all the better.
If QF have retention issues then perhaps they could deal with it by treating the pilot body in such a way as to inspire loyalty, rather than via the cadet scheme. And if pilots leaving for elsewhere sends a message about pay and conditions, then all the better.
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People that hate cadets usually have a chip on their shoulder. Having said that, I would rather have had the great bush flying experience I had out of training than been flying airlines from day 1. I certainly have better memories and experiences (I think) than a cadet. But if you go through life bitter that you didn't have whatever it takes to get in, well it shows what an immature person you really are.
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They should ALL be cadets. The huge lottery which has lots of pilots training in the mistaken belief that the will be in a major airline next year is doing a lot of damage to our aviation industry.
95 of evry hundred will not get an airline job. It's time our airlines started. to behave in a responsible manner. Then we may have some stability and sense in the industry.
95 of evry hundred will not get an airline job. It's time our airlines started. to behave in a responsible manner. Then we may have some stability and sense in the industry.
bushy,
Dont agree with "95 of evry hundred will not get an airline job."
QF mainline alone is employing about 100 pilots a year, last year 804 new CPLs were issued, one third to half of those will be exported out of Australia as they are foreign pilots from Zhejiang Airlines, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, Dragonair, Emirates, Air China, China Southern, Korean etc.
Other airlines are still employing also, both turboprop and jet jobs, not to mention the people who gain employment overseas.
Dont agree with "95 of evry hundred will not get an airline job."
QF mainline alone is employing about 100 pilots a year, last year 804 new CPLs were issued, one third to half of those will be exported out of Australia as they are foreign pilots from Zhejiang Airlines, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, Dragonair, Emirates, Air China, China Southern, Korean etc.
Other airlines are still employing also, both turboprop and jet jobs, not to mention the people who gain employment overseas.
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Bushy/swh - tend to agree somewhere in the middle.
Been around for a while now and this is the way I have seen it.
Out of ALL CPL graduates, 20% will give up within 6 months of qualifying but half of those will come back in a year or two for another crack.
20% will get to fly a jet
20% will get to fly regional
30% will stay in GA (anything from Chieftain to a Metro to a 172)
10% will give it away while struggling in GA.
That's the way I have seen it.
Been around for a while now and this is the way I have seen it.
Out of ALL CPL graduates, 20% will give up within 6 months of qualifying but half of those will come back in a year or two for another crack.
20% will get to fly a jet
20% will get to fly regional
30% will stay in GA (anything from Chieftain to a Metro to a 172)
10% will give it away while struggling in GA.
That's the way I have seen it.
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Just phone an ex FOI and manager that used to have a hell of a lot to do with recruitment at QF and he'll tell you the answer to that.
After all,he recruited all of his offspring and their friends and then disappeared after the job was done.
After all,he recruited all of his offspring and their friends and then disappeared after the job was done.
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From page one....
..BA, Cathay, Emirates, Dragonair, Air China, CAL, SAA, Qantas....the list goes on and on.....these airlines all take Cadets!! Not REAL airlines?! Am I missing something here? 
So what is the difference of getting GA people from the start like REAL airlines do??