Give Cooly an ILS !!
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Got to love the weather this time of year here.
Two more diversions noted this evening VB 525 and JQ 226
Thats eight diversions in 3 days (just the ones that I have noted)
Plenty of others uumming and arrhh'ing when they were told Brisbane was closed due to cells overhead, cloud then lifted at CG to allow the other 3 aircraft in that had already conducted missed approaches and were holding and crunching numbers.
Two more diversions noted this evening VB 525 and JQ 226
Thats eight diversions in 3 days (just the ones that I have noted)
Plenty of others uumming and arrhh'ing when they were told Brisbane was closed due to cells overhead, cloud then lifted at CG to allow the other 3 aircraft in that had already conducted missed approaches and were holding and crunching numbers.
The cost of an ILS is approx 6million (includes the cost of upgrading approach, runway lighting, flight inspection etc). The ongoing maintenance is approx 1million/year.
Get with it guys: Non-Precision Approaches SUCK! The graveyards of the world are littered with the bodies of people who were in the back of big jets trying to do NPAs. It WILL happen, and for a place like YBCG, if the use of NPAs is as much as stated here, they should have an ILS.
And when it does go in (the ILS that is), for god's sake put a DME at the end of the runway, unlike the morons who put in the CS 33 LLZ and didn't bother putting in a DME to go with it on the threshold. The most complex NPA in Oz for big jets and they left the only DME 3 miles up the other end. What hope have we got!
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Stuff the ILS idea at YBCG - it just isnt viable for geographical reasons as mentioned.
Rather than quibble about an ILS at Cooly why dont we have Cat II ILS's at all the major centres!
Much more useful especially during those winter fog times along the eastern seaboard that cause massive disruptions that can take over 24 hours to rectify.
Having operated into Cooly literally hundreds of times over the years, aviation would be far better served by having more flexible ILS minimums at all current facilities.
Rather than quibble about an ILS at Cooly why dont we have Cat II ILS's at all the major centres!
Much more useful especially during those winter fog times along the eastern seaboard that cause massive disruptions that can take over 24 hours to rectify.
Having operated into Cooly literally hundreds of times over the years, aviation would be far better served by having more flexible ILS minimums at all current facilities.
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Kind of ironic isn't it.
The millions wasted on NAS, whose greatest supporters go on TV hand wringing about the safety of the travelling public, could have funded another 25+ ILS installations in Australia.
I seem to recall it took a looooong time before SY RWY 25 got one as well. Westerlies during the bush fires was 'interesting' when VD was only option.
The millions wasted on NAS, whose greatest supporters go on TV hand wringing about the safety of the travelling public, could have funded another 25+ ILS installations in Australia.
I seem to recall it took a looooong time before SY RWY 25 got one as well. Westerlies during the bush fires was 'interesting' when VD was only option.
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RNP approaches. The way of the future!
As mentioned above, ILS's and other aids will still have their place for the time being... but our industry really needs to embrace the technology - as long as the price is right though... as always $$$
btw, capt bloggs; i second that! dme's on the threshold! it may be simple maths, but on a complex NPA, a moments hestitation/confusion at the wrong time...
out.
As mentioned above, ILS's and other aids will still have their place for the time being... but our industry really needs to embrace the technology - as long as the price is right though... as always $$$
btw, capt bloggs; i second that! dme's on the threshold! it may be simple maths, but on a complex NPA, a moments hestitation/confusion at the wrong time...
out.
Its getting real expensive for G.A. operators at Gold Coast, the cost of installing and maintaining an ILS, and and initial and ongoing training of controllers would get passed on to all uses of the airport, i.e. increasing the costs for G.A., where the major benifit would be RPT jets.
Does the cost/benifit justify such a facility given the statistically small number hours a year that existing approaches will not result in a landing ?
With the terrain around the airport I would have thought a MLS facility or DGPS would be better than ILS in any case.
Does the cost/benifit justify such a facility given the statistically small number hours a year that existing approaches will not result in a landing ?
With the terrain around the airport I would have thought a MLS facility or DGPS would be better than ILS in any case.
for god's sake put a DME at the end of the runway, unlike the morons who put in the CS 33 LLZ and didn't bother putting in a DME to go with it on the threshold
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LetsGoRated.
Hummm! Rather nasty response to some of my suggestions and procedures I learnt whilst with an oversea airline. I don’t think there was one ounce of constructive criticism in any of your responses. You sledge me and my qualifications without knowing what my experience. Who said i learnt to fly at an aeroclub anyway?
Yes I did operate to OOL over these days in question.
RE: my cheaky Alternates comment. The point you missed, but it seems everyone else got, was the pressure we can put on ourselves to always get in. As highlight in many crashes. Every situation needs to be assessed individually and I’m not saying you mustn’t try a few goes, but when it’s paternally obvious you wont get in below the MDA, then its time to consider the alternate and not commercial pressures.
RE: Monitored Approach. Have you ever been trained to do them. Have you done them in LVP? They are an excellent procedure and increase safety and the % chance you will get in. Do you now why we do them overseas? Do you understand the biological limitations with your eye and why these procedures were developed? Do you know why Cathay, American, S/African, SQ all do them? All I’m saying is, give us the facts why you slag off the monitored approach procedure. Monitored Approach are bloody great and worked well with my previous employer. Why not consider them?
Ha! If you honeslty think that, what more needs to be said. Our pay is a Joke! Yes, my choice to come back and earn nothing, but dont state bullsh1t like we are well paid.
Perhaps you have already identified yourself as a Jetstar pilot.
God help us if they give you a left seat! You expel and authority gradient that is off the scale and obviously with all your vast Australia never been anywhere, LSALT never above A100, I know it all attitude; the FO’s must love flying you.
Hummm! Rather nasty response to some of my suggestions and procedures I learnt whilst with an oversea airline. I don’t think there was one ounce of constructive criticism in any of your responses. You sledge me and my qualifications without knowing what my experience. Who said i learnt to fly at an aeroclub anyway?
Yes I did operate to OOL over these days in question.
RE: my cheaky Alternates comment. The point you missed, but it seems everyone else got, was the pressure we can put on ourselves to always get in. As highlight in many crashes. Every situation needs to be assessed individually and I’m not saying you mustn’t try a few goes, but when it’s paternally obvious you wont get in below the MDA, then its time to consider the alternate and not commercial pressures.
RE: Monitored Approach. Have you ever been trained to do them. Have you done them in LVP? They are an excellent procedure and increase safety and the % chance you will get in. Do you now why we do them overseas? Do you understand the biological limitations with your eye and why these procedures were developed? Do you know why Cathay, American, S/African, SQ all do them? All I’m saying is, give us the facts why you slag off the monitored approach procedure. Monitored Approach are bloody great and worked well with my previous employer. Why not consider them?
"Thank god these pilots are getting paid serious dollars to look after us."
Perhaps you have already identified yourself as a Jetstar pilot.
God help us if they give you a left seat! You expel and authority gradient that is off the scale and obviously with all your vast Australia never been anywhere, LSALT never above A100, I know it all attitude; the FO’s must love flying you.
Last edited by BankAngle50; 9th Nov 2004 at 04:25.
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Ho hum...... You keep mentioning LVP. I hope you're not operating under LVP into Cooly, Mr. IQ50. That would be really interesting.
Did you perform an AutoLand? How did the touchdown feel???
As for monitored approaches... as you would know by now, real men don't need to do them unless the CP says to in the ops manual, as in during CAT TOO or CAT TREE.
Anyone who introduces monitored approaches around here like ******** airlines did when they were around is a sissy.
Did you perform an AutoLand? How did the touchdown feel???
As for monitored approaches... as you would know by now, real men don't need to do them unless the CP says to in the ops manual, as in during CAT TOO or CAT TREE.
Anyone who introduces monitored approaches around here like ******** airlines did when they were around is a sissy.
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Actually most airlines don't even do them during a CAT TOO or CAT TREE so there goes your credibility around here.
This is SIMILAR but not quite the same. Kinda like the way the *******s say "same same but different..." with that idiotic look on their faces.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
This is SIMILAR but not quite the same. Kinda like the way the *******s say "same same but different..." with that idiotic look on their faces.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
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Bank Angle
You are speaking utter rubbish!! Your complete lack of understanding with regards mon app & LVP and as they apply to Australian ops attests to that. Have a read of the Jepps one day!! Don’t give me that "overseas we do this" crap!! Spent a hell of a long time in one of "your" above mentioned airlines. With your total lack of understanding of these issues, I would be very surprised if you have operated a jet with any of these airlines.
Criticism? You infer questionable operational decisions by crews without being on the flight deck??
Q: How many years have you operated a jet to LVP at airports across the globe?
A: None. If you did you might have a bit more understanding of them and when they're applied and to what type of approaches!!
I've conducted hundreds of monitored approach’s and I can honestly say that it makes absolutely no f^&%ing difference on the outcome. If they are a part of your SOP's then you do them. As for being trained for them… yeah what all of 30 minutes!! The biological limitations of the eye – give me a break, you’re supposed to be flying an airliner not the f^&king space shuttle!!
You're right, got no idea of your quals, but looking at your comments critical of fellow professionals at YBCG and YSCB EGPWS stuff, I'll bet my left one that its F^&K ALL!! You have cursed yourself and one day you just might find you’re own arse hanging in the breeze.
BTW
Read para again, I was being sarcastic.
You are speaking utter rubbish!! Your complete lack of understanding with regards mon app & LVP and as they apply to Australian ops attests to that. Have a read of the Jepps one day!! Don’t give me that "overseas we do this" crap!! Spent a hell of a long time in one of "your" above mentioned airlines. With your total lack of understanding of these issues, I would be very surprised if you have operated a jet with any of these airlines.
Criticism? You infer questionable operational decisions by crews without being on the flight deck??
Q: How many years have you operated a jet to LVP at airports across the globe?
A: None. If you did you might have a bit more understanding of them and when they're applied and to what type of approaches!!
I've conducted hundreds of monitored approach’s and I can honestly say that it makes absolutely no f^&%ing difference on the outcome. If they are a part of your SOP's then you do them. As for being trained for them… yeah what all of 30 minutes!! The biological limitations of the eye – give me a break, you’re supposed to be flying an airliner not the f^&king space shuttle!!
You're right, got no idea of your quals, but looking at your comments critical of fellow professionals at YBCG and YSCB EGPWS stuff, I'll bet my left one that its F^&K ALL!! You have cursed yourself and one day you just might find you’re own arse hanging in the breeze.
BTW
"Thank god these pilots are getting paid serious dollars to look after us."
Last edited by LetsGoRated; 9th Nov 2004 at 09:51.
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Uncommon Sense said
The only reason SY got an ILS on 25 was to increase the use of RWY 25 for noise sharing. Ie, Political reasons, not operational.
99% of the time the weather that requires the use of RWY 25 for arrivals for operational reasons is CAVOK.
AA
I seem to recall it took a looooong time before SY RWY 25 got one as well. Westerlies during the bush fires was 'interesting' when VD was only option.
99% of the time the weather that requires the use of RWY 25 for arrivals for operational reasons is CAVOK.
AA
Fathom,
If the chart limitations and profile for the 33LLZ were based on the closest DME ie at the threshold of 33, then "morons" would be 820ft/2.6nm high, not low, if they used the wrong (in this case CS 113.0) DME, would they not?
The CS 33 LLZ DME was made to read the same as the CS DME to prevent moron pilots from conducting the 33 LLZ approach using the wrong DME! The 2.6nm difference would put an aircraft 820' low if the wrong DME was used. Saving us from ourselves!
You may have me there Bloggs..
..but they were more concerned about the opposite scenario.
If there is a profile based on the CS DME, and you flew that charted profile using the distance(DME) from the 33 thresold, you would be low.
To keep it simple, if there are two profiles and two DMEs, it's only a matter of time before it gets stuffed up.
Getting off the subject slightly.
..but they were more concerned about the opposite scenario.
If there is a profile based on the CS DME, and you flew that charted profile using the distance(DME) from the 33 thresold, you would be low.
To keep it simple, if there are two profiles and two DMEs, it's only a matter of time before it gets stuffed up.
Getting off the subject slightly.
Arrrh but Fathom, the same situation applies. Use the closest DME for all profiles. And besides, 15 has a glideslope.
But back to the thread: we should have stuck with MLS and Multi Mode Receivers. These famous curved wiffodill Cat 1 GPS Approaches are many moons off, despite the rhetoric.
And I happen to like Monitored Approaches. Why would you, in crap conditions, let the right hand seater try to put it on the ground? I'm not saying mandate it, but it should be a round in the magazine, regardless of the visibility.
But back to the thread: we should have stuck with MLS and Multi Mode Receivers. These famous curved wiffodill Cat 1 GPS Approaches are many moons off, despite the rhetoric.
And I happen to like Monitored Approaches. Why would you, in crap conditions, let the right hand seater try to put it on the ground? I'm not saying mandate it, but it should be a round in the magazine, regardless of the visibility.
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Today was another beauty to resurrect this thread from last month.
Saw around 15 missed approaches. For about a two hour period only one successful one (not counting a VFR - but thats another story).
What I did not get, and perhaps someone from the local 737 operator that doesnt have a kangaroo can answer, is why after a couple of misses and diverting to BN, you then refuel and go straight back down there 50NM to miss out again!? Then rejoin the fray trying to get back in to BN? Now I assuming with the same passengers ex- SY / ML / AD - if so it just didn't seem to make much operational or financial sense to me when a phone call or even monitoring the frequency would say the best (and cheapest) place is on the ground.
Or do I have it wrong and they were repositioning to try and get back on shed?
Don't get me wrong - it makes great TV (the green one), and lots of fun from our end, but it is kind of mysterious in it's logic!
Saw around 15 missed approaches. For about a two hour period only one successful one (not counting a VFR - but thats another story).
What I did not get, and perhaps someone from the local 737 operator that doesnt have a kangaroo can answer, is why after a couple of misses and diverting to BN, you then refuel and go straight back down there 50NM to miss out again!? Then rejoin the fray trying to get back in to BN? Now I assuming with the same passengers ex- SY / ML / AD - if so it just didn't seem to make much operational or financial sense to me when a phone call or even monitoring the frequency would say the best (and cheapest) place is on the ground.
Or do I have it wrong and they were repositioning to try and get back on shed?
Don't get me wrong - it makes great TV (the green one), and lots of fun from our end, but it is kind of mysterious in it's logic!
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If they really insist on maintaining YBCG as a jet port, Gold Coast Airport Corp. could do a lot worse than upgrading the runway lighting to a 6 stage omni directional bit of kit. In the last two decades I have worked there, the common experience I receive from the "customers" is that the runway is often the last feature sighted in the reduced vis (SE stream weather)
Failing that....extend the rail to Tweed/Coolangatta and I'll get you a tidy sum for the real estate. ETA 19R at YBBN circa 2007!
Toodles
Failing that....extend the rail to Tweed/Coolangatta and I'll get you a tidy sum for the real estate. ETA 19R at YBBN circa 2007!
Toodles
