Checklists! when, where is there overkill?

[Ultralights]

personally i am a big beliver in checklists!. i am only a ppl, with 500 odd hrs, and own my own aircraft. i regularly fly Piper arrows, archers, as well as the Jabiru and other ultralights. every time i fly any aircraft i will follow the checklists as i have a little pocket notebook with the checklists taken from the flight manuals of all the aircraft i am rated on.

last weekend, i took a trip to Maryborough to visit family, and decided it was a lovely day to fly, so i wandered off to the bundy and hired a Jabiru., now the ajbiru checklist is very short,
radios,transponder off
strobes, lights off
master on
fuel pump on
clear prop.
hit start.
pressures good,
lights on
radios etc on


and off we go.

my point is, before i could hire a jabiru, the CFI desired a checkride circuit before he would let me blast off in his plane, fair enough, but when i pulled my checklist, he got a little upset, and said, "looking at your logbook! why do you need a list for this?""

i replied, if its good enough for a 747 captain!........
he then gave me the whatever look with rolled eyeballs!

my checklist book also has in it emergency procedures as well as the usual inflight lists i dont usually pull the list out for landing checks etc.. only use it for startup, pre take off, and emergency simulating the rest is off by heart,

How often do you use checklist? when dont you use them? why and why not? do you use list like i do out of force of habbit?

be honest!...........

[druglord]

Yeah that CFI probably shouldn't be anywhere near a flight school with an attitude like that. A CFI too! Let him/her know that you don't intend to hire from a school with such lax attitudes towards safety.
Keep using those checklists.

PS I had friends killed ...a contributing factor was the failure to use checklists.

[Speeds high]

I use list for all sorts of simple airplanes also, and think it is a good idea, but i think some ppl take them too far, ie surely clearing the area around the prop is just good airmanship and not required on a list, sort of like closing the door, do you really need a list that says, door closed? My idea is that they only incorporate the critacal points of flight that history states are commonly left out, eg Fuel Cocks and Contents.

Interested in others thoughts on this?

[DirectAnywhere]

It's an interesting philosphical question. I would say good on you Ultralights - keep using those printed checklists. As you said, if it's good enough for a 747 crew...

That said, there are times in a single pilot operation when it's simply not appropriate to be reading checklists and this is where pnemonics come in.

In essence, in non-time critical situations, or in a situation where adequate "crew resources" are available to you to monitor the aircraft and the checklist simultaneously I would always use a printed checklist.

In time critical or high workload situations there is scope for the use of pnemonic procedures rather than a written checklist.

Interestingly, airlines have many procedures that are used by crew to configure the aircraft for takeoff and landing that are expected to be known by rote by the crew but only the things that can kill you really easily are on the printed checklist.

[Pinky the pilot]

Agree that at times a simple mnemonic (note the spelling!) is all that's required. In the not so distant past where I was working as a Glider Tug Pilot the number of launches I had to do and the frequency thereof would have made reference to a printed checklist somewhat impractical. (Most ever was 55 launches in one day)
However, when a printed checklist is available most often it is Company procedure to use it. Actually I think DirectAnywhere said it best in his last paragraph!

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[TeleMaPhone]

Isn't it expected by most instructors that you know your checklist of by heart? It saves time fiddling around in the cockpit, which effectively then saves money... Couldn't imagine pulling out a piece of paper and refering to it now that myhead knows it all!

[InTransit]

The use of checklist is of course, as the name suggests, to check that you have done everything as needed. But as DirectAnywhere said, there are just times when you can't refer to a checklist for whatever reason, that's when you need, what I call, a "Killers Item" checklist. For instance, a takeoff checklist would only contain: Flaps, Fuel Pump, Trim, Prop Pitch....and whatever is specific to your aircraft that, if not done, would certainly cause you headaches!

Personally, I do a flow pattern around the cockpit, then use the mnemonics on taxiing, and the killer items checklist just before takeoff.

[I Fly]

Perhaps we need to look at terminology again. Airlines have checklists. One pilot does it and the other checks it. Unfortunately in single pilot operations and in most training we tend to use the 'checklist' as a promt list. Gee, what do I have to do next? Some pilots tend to rely on the promt list too much. "Why did you not turn the radio on?" "It's not on the checklist". The single pilot, or student, should have the list in his/her head and then use the printed list to check he/she has not forgotten anything. The list in the head can then be used to check that he/she has not jumped a few lines on the paper list. That way the paper list can disappear out of reach and the pilot is not lost. It always makes me wonder why commercial pilots are so dumb that they need a paper crutch and PPLs are so smart that they can do without.
I would have thought that a (CASA) flying school would have an Ops manual with checklists approved / accepted / checked by CASA and written procedures for the use of them. I also would not hire an aircraft from a school where the CFI frowns on their use. Did the last pilot do his/her shutdown check correctly?? I do not want to check for nicks in the propeller if it possibly is alive. Did the previous pilot fly the aircraft within its limits or am I going to be the dummy when something fails.

[druglord]

Yeah as I undestand it Europeans do checklists as a "to do" list. ie. one crewmember calls out the check and the other performs it. European checklists are long and exhaustive. The american system is 'flows' and I think this is what is used in oz too I think. Where the procedure is performed first and then at an appropriate time backed up by a checklist when it's convienent to do so.
In any case do checklists.

[DirectAnywhere]

I prefer my spelling!!

Even if it's wrong.

[Capt Snooze]

I Fly

"Did the last pilot do his/her shutdown check correctly?? I do not want to check for nicks in the propeller if it possibly is alive."

You don't check the mags yourself prior to touching the prop?

You can NEVER assume that the last guy did anything correctly, even in the best of organisations...............



Snooze

[Goffel]

Ultralight.
If you feel happy using your check list,carry on.
I am busy poling a LET and today going out of a short bush strip,was busy talking c to my cojo,that I forgot to put the flaps down on t/o.
Could not understand why the trees looked so big at rotation.
I have 8000 hours and it was a wake up lesson for me to learn.
So forget the rest,do what you know best.
Enjoy your flying.

[Ultralights]

I find i only use my printed lists for startup, pre take off, and thats about it, sometimes i find myself running through the arrow checklist when im about to fire up the jabiru or Joey.

most other checklists i run through the pneumonic lists, eg, pre landing, as most are similar, the fatals rarely change. oh and the emergency lists.

the instructor might have been a little upset that i decided to hire his jabiru instead of his cessnas, who knows.

[takeonme]

tell the CFI get f****d

[Lodown]

Stick to your printed checklists Ultralights. I like many, have relied in the past on memory and nowadays on the printed checklist. There are too many aircraft and too many configurations to have to rely on your memory, which has a habit of failing in accordance with Murphy's Law.

You can make it a lot easier by having your checklists readily available and convenient. BTW, if you intend going for a checkride in the US and you don't have a checklist, forget about getting off the ground.

[JSM]

I find TEMPFISCH works a treat, and then FLT as you line up. Im sure you all know it but for those who don't

T - Throttle frictions/trims
E - Engine T/P's
M - Mixture
P - Pitch
F - Flaps/Cowl flaps/Fuel
I - Ignition/Instruments
S - Switches
C - Circuits
H - Hatches/Harnesses

This gets you to the holding point, then as you line up:

F - Flaps/Cowl flaps/Fuel (Re checked)
L - Lights
T - Transponder

This works for me, but im sure there are plenty of other ways

[I Fly]

Capt Snooze you asked me " You don't check the mags yourself prior to touching the prop?"
Yes I certainly do. However the day VFR syllabus requires us to do an 'Ignition switch safety check'. You can only do that with the engine running before the previous shutdown. Perhaps I need to be more specific for you. The 'Ignition switch safety check' is for checking that the switches are actually grounding the relevant magneto. If the switch is faulty or the wire to the switch is broken you can look at it as long as you like. You can see it's in the off position and a magneto is still alive. How do you do it? Start the engine first so you can do the 'ignition switch safety check' and then shut it down so you can do the pre flight inspection?

[HSWL]

I know some pilots who are so careful that they even use a checklist to start their car. Aeroplanes should not be flown without a checklist to tell you what to do next. Especially on downwind leg you need to read from a written checklist, because that's where you can forget to lower the wheels. If I have a passenger I get him to read the checklist to remind me what comes next as it is easy to forget. I use a checklist for the pre-flight inspection although passengers sometimes give me a funny look when they see me walking around reading from a book. But I know I am safe and that CASA inspectors want you to do that.

Some flying schools insist on long checklists but which costs money to use when the VDO is operating. I guess they have to make their money somehow. The checklists that cover all aircraft types I find the best as they remind me of things I had forgotten.
Why go to all the trouble of remembering switches and things when you can read them from a book I say.

[Capt Snooze]

I Fly,


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh....... That's what you were referring to.

It's been a while since I've done a 'dead cut', or any kind of mag check. (Which probably shows )

So they've actually put it in the syllabus these days?

I'll say it again though, whether you work with mags or igniters -

You can NEVER assume that the last guy did anything correctly, even in the best of organisations...............




Better make that first prop movement real slow, and stand well clear.





Snooze

[Speeds high]

HSWL

While your conviction on the use of checklists is great, might i suggest another way in which to use your list to further increase saftey, particluary downwind where aircraft can be flying toward you from all sorts of directions.

Why not use the list as a "checking list" rather than a "to do list"; this would mean that you could spend more time looking outside for other aircraft and "watching the road" rather than on the list.

By now after doing your list many times you would be resonably familar with it, so you could do as many items as possible from memory (i reckon you would probably get them all done )then use the list to ensure that they have all been completed.

I could be wrong here but i believe this is how most RPT operators use a checklist.

Give it ago, and let me know what you think