15 years on, have we had some interesting jobs or what????
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Kraptin M
In response to your comments of 10 Oct.
I have heard a larger amount of BS. It comes from you everytime you put finger to keyboard and doubtless each time you put your glass down and finish belching.
Talk about Physc testing etc. It is obvious that you didn't do any with Ansett . You sir are obviously disturbed and your actions during 89 show what you really are:
An antagionist
Indecisive
Unproffessional
Dishonest
A turn coat
AN OPPORTUNIST.
Oh! No!
Not that horrible word usually reserved for "one of Those" used about "one of ours"
YOU sir had a change of heart and (as you would have it known ) a return to your unmoving integrity only AFTER you were not wanted back by the airline that made you " the cream of Australian Aviation" . You took the opportunity presented by the confusion to cover up your abomination.
I suppose you can now announce that you are in the upper management of your current airline after the natural progression that comes with the time you have put in. Any announcements????
No???
Geee Wizzzzzz, what a blow for those with the "hats stained white with cream "
To you and your mate RTA who like to "contain" or "control" or
generally stick there nose in everybodys business instead of getting on with your own life, let me say that there are all types of pilots in those "main stream " but I don't see you there Kraptin, you are in Asia bitching just as you did in Ansett when you were "cream ". There are also much bigger airlines in Asia that do not even recall the events so vivid in your minds but, I don't see you there Kraptin. What about RTA, where are you working?
Has the cream become Yoghurt.
What a bunch of to-sers. Hey!!!! is that how you get the "cream" in the first place????????
Get a life but more than anything else----------
Shut The F--K UP!!!!!!
Sick and tired of the moaning!!!!!!!!
PS: I always thought that " hero " refered to the "those with the hats stained with cream".
Funny how you can look at things when you don't have any hang ups!!!!
In response to your comments of 10 Oct.
I have heard a larger amount of BS. It comes from you everytime you put finger to keyboard and doubtless each time you put your glass down and finish belching.
Talk about Physc testing etc. It is obvious that you didn't do any with Ansett . You sir are obviously disturbed and your actions during 89 show what you really are:
An antagionist
Indecisive
Unproffessional
Dishonest
A turn coat
AN OPPORTUNIST.
Oh! No!
Not that horrible word usually reserved for "one of Those" used about "one of ours"
YOU sir had a change of heart and (as you would have it known ) a return to your unmoving integrity only AFTER you were not wanted back by the airline that made you " the cream of Australian Aviation" . You took the opportunity presented by the confusion to cover up your abomination.
I suppose you can now announce that you are in the upper management of your current airline after the natural progression that comes with the time you have put in. Any announcements????
No???
Geee Wizzzzzz, what a blow for those with the "hats stained white with cream "
To you and your mate RTA who like to "contain" or "control" or
generally stick there nose in everybodys business instead of getting on with your own life, let me say that there are all types of pilots in those "main stream " but I don't see you there Kraptin, you are in Asia bitching just as you did in Ansett when you were "cream ". There are also much bigger airlines in Asia that do not even recall the events so vivid in your minds but, I don't see you there Kraptin. What about RTA, where are you working?
Has the cream become Yoghurt.
What a bunch of to-sers. Hey!!!! is that how you get the "cream" in the first place????????
Get a life but more than anything else----------
Shut The F--K UP!!!!!!
Sick and tired of the moaning!!!!!!!!
PS: I always thought that " hero " refered to the "those with the hats stained with cream".
Funny how you can look at things when you don't have any hang ups!!!!
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Oh my wordy Lordy Ninja.
You must have really got up from the wrong side of the bed this morning.
I would respectfully suggest that unless you have flown with Kaptin M for more than a few sorties, that it would be inapproriate to comment on his professionalism for one.
Kap seldom directly attacks anyone, and I ( a humble groundhog ) have a totally different opinion of the '89 events to his.
Last time I heard, that was allowed. We are all thankfully entitled to hold opinions that may differ from those of others.
Lighten up mate.
Best regards
EWL
You must have really got up from the wrong side of the bed this morning.
I would respectfully suggest that unless you have flown with Kaptin M for more than a few sorties, that it would be inapproriate to comment on his professionalism for one.
Kap seldom directly attacks anyone, and I ( a humble groundhog ) have a totally different opinion of the '89 events to his.
Last time I heard, that was allowed. We are all thankfully entitled to hold opinions that may differ from those of others.
Lighten up mate.
Best regards
EWL
Flying Ninja,
You do no one any good spouting that kind of c!"£. Informed, robust debate is possible even between people with vastly different views.
That kind of post reflects contempt on you, not on the objects of your scorn.
You do no one any good spouting that kind of c!"£. Informed, robust debate is possible even between people with vastly different views.
That kind of post reflects contempt on you, not on the objects of your scorn.
Last edited by Wizofoz; 2nd Nov 2004 at 09:47.
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Wiz I didn't think robust discussion was probable/possible other than between people with vastly differing views, other than between people with just differing views. Only joking.
Facts of Ninja's may be right, but delivery just a little provocative.
Facts of Ninja's may be right, but delivery just a little provocative.
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Methinks Flying Ninja protesth a little too loud. I don’t know what the allusions to cream on hats is all about, but on reading his little rantette, the phrase that immediately comes to mind is “if the cap fits….”
Didja run across an old colleague in the shopping mall who turned ’is back on yuh Ninj, reminding you of what you are… and always will be?
Reference Ninja’s comments about ‘heroes’: is there anyone out there with a high speed connection (and the time) to search the archives to find the very funny poem that someone wrote that started the whole ‘hero’ thing? I remember laughing out loud when I read it. As I recall, it was in response to some post-89 Qandom pilots complaining to someone in authority after their kids found their names on a (insert four letter word beginning with the letter immediately after R) list whilst doing a Google search.
They didn’t like being called that word that starts with the letter immediately after R so some wag made up the poem giving them the ‘hero’ label, and it’s stuck. Love to see it again, but my steam driven Internet connection isn’t up to the search.
Didja run across an old colleague in the shopping mall who turned ’is back on yuh Ninj, reminding you of what you are… and always will be?
Reference Ninja’s comments about ‘heroes’: is there anyone out there with a high speed connection (and the time) to search the archives to find the very funny poem that someone wrote that started the whole ‘hero’ thing? I remember laughing out loud when I read it. As I recall, it was in response to some post-89 Qandom pilots complaining to someone in authority after their kids found their names on a (insert four letter word beginning with the letter immediately after R) list whilst doing a Google search.
They didn’t like being called that word that starts with the letter immediately after R so some wag made up the poem giving them the ‘hero’ label, and it’s stuck. Love to see it again, but my steam driven Internet connection isn’t up to the search.
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I remember that poem. Very amsusing. i thried an archive search for the word 'hero' but could only get an open thread search, and the 'hero' poem was put up years ago. How do you search the (presumedly closed) archives? Anyone know?
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Mr Spad,
No I didn't run into someone in a shopping centre who thinks that he can somehow either justify his own actions or get some satisfaction from revenge for something that only he was reponsible for .
Kraptin ? professional ?
True professionalism extends beyond flying skills. He doesn't qualify.
Yes, in that situation as in all, there were opportunists. These opportunists were on both sides, if you can actually say that there were two sides. Surely, we were all adult individuals capable of making a proffesssional decision. Obviously Kraptain wasn't because he kept changing his mind and lied to try and cover up his opportunist and disloyal actions.
Kraptin was an opportunist as was someone who went straight back in order to inprove his position .
Even more damning is the fact that he held a high position in the union. He abused his position because knew things and used his inside information to try and get back as early as he could. All this after he was one of the protagonists an BNE. He helped start the dispute! What a great guy he is !!!!!
This thread had potential until some idiot mentioned "the Cream of Australian Aviation" Doubltless some real idiots didn't return and they were not cream. To call yourself " Cream" is an arrogant position to take ,especially as the basis of their arguement is on morals, solidarity and loyalty, not ability.Unionism as the AFAP ran it was not in keeping with proffessionalism.The muscle men were not much better than low class union brow beaters.
Airline pilots are probably one of the most self centered groups around. They only care about seniority up until it passes their number, stuff the rest behind. Just look at the Cathay employment band . What a joke.
Many, many, in 89 went quickly overseas for better seniority numbers and tax free pay while others fought for them back in Aust, for NO money. If the fight was won, "the cream" , on the basis of there "seniortity" would decide if they would come back or keep their tax free positions and senority overseas. For those who stayed in Aust and didn't get a job back, tough luck, that's the seniorty game. Can't get a job overseas later because your so called mates have taken them all before you. Can you really keep two senority numbers at once with all the trimmings while others do the work and not be an opportunist?? You can if you are an airline pilot who considers himself the "cream of Australian aviation".
My style may be provocative but my facts are correct.
True proffessionals keep politics and personal feeelings out of their decision making.They do their job to the best of their ability and accept situations that are out of their control. If you find your position untenable, you leave. You do not throw stones ,heckle or seek revenge .To try and blame ( or to "control" as they put it) others for your own decisions or circumstances is very unproffessional and childish.
Sure , life was great in the protected environment before 89 but it is over. The proffessional of airline pilot has been stuffed in Aust by the low salaries and standards of companies like VB and J*( being the Impulse pay deal, don't know about the standards of the current management).
Further,to exclude individuals that are the best candidate for a position to the detriment of the company just so that you feel better is the worst kind of un proffessionalism. In any company that I owned, these would last seconds. VB and KA management this means you, and is intended to be constructive critisism. Go over your head ? Not surprising.
No, I have not applied and I accept that there are some operators who employ unproffesional managers
These companies have not held me back at all and , the offers keep coming.
To make statements like " not even their sons or the sons of their sons" is a typical "red neck" unionist, brow beating tactics.
Hey Kap, we are back to my opinion you and your kind........
You sir, always were, are and always will be a.......RED NECK!!!
No I didn't run into someone in a shopping centre who thinks that he can somehow either justify his own actions or get some satisfaction from revenge for something that only he was reponsible for .
Kraptin ? professional ?
True professionalism extends beyond flying skills. He doesn't qualify.
Yes, in that situation as in all, there were opportunists. These opportunists were on both sides, if you can actually say that there were two sides. Surely, we were all adult individuals capable of making a proffesssional decision. Obviously Kraptain wasn't because he kept changing his mind and lied to try and cover up his opportunist and disloyal actions.
Kraptin was an opportunist as was someone who went straight back in order to inprove his position .
Even more damning is the fact that he held a high position in the union. He abused his position because knew things and used his inside information to try and get back as early as he could. All this after he was one of the protagonists an BNE. He helped start the dispute! What a great guy he is !!!!!
This thread had potential until some idiot mentioned "the Cream of Australian Aviation" Doubltless some real idiots didn't return and they were not cream. To call yourself " Cream" is an arrogant position to take ,especially as the basis of their arguement is on morals, solidarity and loyalty, not ability.Unionism as the AFAP ran it was not in keeping with proffessionalism.The muscle men were not much better than low class union brow beaters.
Airline pilots are probably one of the most self centered groups around. They only care about seniority up until it passes their number, stuff the rest behind. Just look at the Cathay employment band . What a joke.
Many, many, in 89 went quickly overseas for better seniority numbers and tax free pay while others fought for them back in Aust, for NO money. If the fight was won, "the cream" , on the basis of there "seniortity" would decide if they would come back or keep their tax free positions and senority overseas. For those who stayed in Aust and didn't get a job back, tough luck, that's the seniorty game. Can't get a job overseas later because your so called mates have taken them all before you. Can you really keep two senority numbers at once with all the trimmings while others do the work and not be an opportunist?? You can if you are an airline pilot who considers himself the "cream of Australian aviation".
My style may be provocative but my facts are correct.
True proffessionals keep politics and personal feeelings out of their decision making.They do their job to the best of their ability and accept situations that are out of their control. If you find your position untenable, you leave. You do not throw stones ,heckle or seek revenge .To try and blame ( or to "control" as they put it) others for your own decisions or circumstances is very unproffessional and childish.
Sure , life was great in the protected environment before 89 but it is over. The proffessional of airline pilot has been stuffed in Aust by the low salaries and standards of companies like VB and J*( being the Impulse pay deal, don't know about the standards of the current management).
Further,to exclude individuals that are the best candidate for a position to the detriment of the company just so that you feel better is the worst kind of un proffessionalism. In any company that I owned, these would last seconds. VB and KA management this means you, and is intended to be constructive critisism. Go over your head ? Not surprising.
No, I have not applied and I accept that there are some operators who employ unproffesional managers
These companies have not held me back at all and , the offers keep coming.
To make statements like " not even their sons or the sons of their sons" is a typical "red neck" unionist, brow beating tactics.
Hey Kap, we are back to my opinion you and your kind........
You sir, always were, are and always will be a.......RED NECK!!!
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Hey Ninja your attitude with regard to why certain airlines wont give the almighty chosen ones employment(because of your vast experience operating in OZ) just reiterates why you and your colleagues that made the choices you did, are stuck now in the bottom end of aviation jobs until retirement.
Get over it,flogging around in an A320 for what is now a non existant organisation, in a past life ,up and down the east coast of Australia, is hardly anything reputable overseas airlines and flight ops will miss
The Offers keep rolling in hey,i can just imagine,Eva,China Airlines,Vietnam Airlines, Sq, the jobs noone wants ,the hiding places of your former colleagues and opportunists, the real cream of jobs
Live with your actions buddy and how about you get over it tosser.
Get over it,flogging around in an A320 for what is now a non existant organisation, in a past life ,up and down the east coast of Australia, is hardly anything reputable overseas airlines and flight ops will miss
The Offers keep rolling in hey,i can just imagine,Eva,China Airlines,Vietnam Airlines, Sq, the jobs noone wants ,the hiding places of your former colleagues and opportunists, the real cream of jobs
Live with your actions buddy and how about you get over it tosser.
Last edited by Iakklat; 9th Nov 2004 at 14:46.
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For Heavens sake Ninja.
Isnt this enough of personal attacks in these fora?
Just a little something to think on mate. In the dreaded 1989, while Abeles and Hawke were rearranging your lives, both alleged hero and sc@b, thousands of Traffic Officers, Locos, Porters, Caterers, LAMEs, Marketing Staff and numerous other professions were stood down as you were initially locked out. I personally was not stood down, but had months in HBA having to open a makeshift EW Office and deal with a lot of very unhappy punters. WE handled it - got on with it.
They had the same mortgages, commitments, school bills and worries about their future as the Pilots affected. Many lost houses, foreclosed on by banks after months of no income. Mates of mine lost Hadleys Hotel in Hobart to the bank, and many other accommodation houses, restaurants and attractions went out sideways in this state alone.
You want to know the strange thing? I have not heard ONE of them once over the last 15 years bad mouth either side of the Pilot's Dispute. I have however heard many of them vent their spleen at the Hawke/Abeles obvious manipulation that caused the cataclysm in order to cut costs in an Airline that had greedily been stripped by management to critical mass. The choices made then (15 bleeding years ago) aint gunna change, and nor is the outcome. Please - get over it. Obviously you are doing well, and that is great. Hopefully it will one day be just a distant memory if people can just let go.
I would hope that highly trained professionals as you and others in here are will one day see how you were deliberately set against each other and if not forgive, at least tolerate each other.
Personal attacks are very degrading, particularly to those who launch them.
Play nice.
Best regards
EWL
Isnt this enough of personal attacks in these fora?
Just a little something to think on mate. In the dreaded 1989, while Abeles and Hawke were rearranging your lives, both alleged hero and sc@b, thousands of Traffic Officers, Locos, Porters, Caterers, LAMEs, Marketing Staff and numerous other professions were stood down as you were initially locked out. I personally was not stood down, but had months in HBA having to open a makeshift EW Office and deal with a lot of very unhappy punters. WE handled it - got on with it.
They had the same mortgages, commitments, school bills and worries about their future as the Pilots affected. Many lost houses, foreclosed on by banks after months of no income. Mates of mine lost Hadleys Hotel in Hobart to the bank, and many other accommodation houses, restaurants and attractions went out sideways in this state alone.
You want to know the strange thing? I have not heard ONE of them once over the last 15 years bad mouth either side of the Pilot's Dispute. I have however heard many of them vent their spleen at the Hawke/Abeles obvious manipulation that caused the cataclysm in order to cut costs in an Airline that had greedily been stripped by management to critical mass. The choices made then (15 bleeding years ago) aint gunna change, and nor is the outcome. Please - get over it. Obviously you are doing well, and that is great. Hopefully it will one day be just a distant memory if people can just let go.
I would hope that highly trained professionals as you and others in here are will one day see how you were deliberately set against each other and if not forgive, at least tolerate each other.
Personal attacks are very degrading, particularly to those who launch them.
Play nice.
Best regards
EWL
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Good to read a voice of maturity and reason, EWL, onya, mate!
Even more gratifying to see no response from the good Kaptin M, although he and I have nothing in common wrt the '89 unpleasantness. There is enough of a divide still existing without building on it 15 years later.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Even more gratifying to see no response from the good Kaptin M, although he and I have nothing in common wrt the '89 unpleasantness. There is enough of a divide still existing without building on it 15 years later.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Well said EWL,
My feelings on the "dispute" can be well searched in this forum, you are one of the few who saw it from a different perspective who bother to comment.
I have returned to Aust from 13 yrs O'seas, found some meaningful Aviation part/full time employment, working with previous ground staff and Pilots of Ansett in a lot of areas, some of whom I worked with in the "previous life".
The ground staff are very good at their jobs as they were before and I don't find any bias one way or the other to the Pilot body. There were some words between some of those people at the 1989 time and the pilot body which were made in that time frame, and not referred to in the current circumstances as is quite professional.
Many people will remember certain events, people, actions and quite normally they have a lasting and moulding effect on all future parts of our lives.
There are reasons not to forget or forgive many people in our lives, some events scar worse than others, the whole dispute was a very painful divorce of Managemnt and Union, the settlement not finalised even today with other unions.
There are individuals I have particular thoughts about, to the third generation so to speak, very personal, and others will be the same.
We do need to get on with life, be perhaps more selective and aware of who we associate, denergrate, like and dislike. The duplisity of some people only highlights that they were not worthy of the effort in the first place, were then and are now opportunists and best left to their own devices and fates. Treat them as professionals if the need arises, drink with your friends.
Siu generus
(and for those who have forgotten or never knew it means in a loose way "may be seen to be different", AND WE WERE and I hope still are.)
The old greybeard still going, joined when this site had 2000 members, got lost in the shuffles of computers, still need the daily fix, bit of a worry but good fun.
My feelings on the "dispute" can be well searched in this forum, you are one of the few who saw it from a different perspective who bother to comment.
I have returned to Aust from 13 yrs O'seas, found some meaningful Aviation part/full time employment, working with previous ground staff and Pilots of Ansett in a lot of areas, some of whom I worked with in the "previous life".
The ground staff are very good at their jobs as they were before and I don't find any bias one way or the other to the Pilot body. There were some words between some of those people at the 1989 time and the pilot body which were made in that time frame, and not referred to in the current circumstances as is quite professional.
Many people will remember certain events, people, actions and quite normally they have a lasting and moulding effect on all future parts of our lives.
There are reasons not to forget or forgive many people in our lives, some events scar worse than others, the whole dispute was a very painful divorce of Managemnt and Union, the settlement not finalised even today with other unions.
There are individuals I have particular thoughts about, to the third generation so to speak, very personal, and others will be the same.
We do need to get on with life, be perhaps more selective and aware of who we associate, denergrate, like and dislike. The duplisity of some people only highlights that they were not worthy of the effort in the first place, were then and are now opportunists and best left to their own devices and fates. Treat them as professionals if the need arises, drink with your friends.
Siu generus
(and for those who have forgotten or never knew it means in a loose way "may be seen to be different", AND WE WERE and I hope still are.)
The old greybeard still going, joined when this site had 2000 members, got lost in the shuffles of computers, still need the daily fix, bit of a worry but good fun.
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Don't start Amos!
You know full well that whatever action I took had nothing to do with "censorship" and everything to do with vitreolic slagging of another user, contrary to the PPRuNe posting rules.
The title of this thread is: 15 years on, have we had some interesting jobs or what????
May I suggest a return to the thread topic would be appropriate?
Woomera
You know full well that whatever action I took had nothing to do with "censorship" and everything to do with vitreolic slagging of another user, contrary to the PPRuNe posting rules.
The title of this thread is: 15 years on, have we had some interesting jobs or what????
May I suggest a return to the thread topic would be appropriate?
Woomera
Flying Ninja
"Exclude individuals who are the best candidates for the position" is an arrogant and selfish comment; possibly an overestimate of one's worth too?
Some of your former colleagues in a aforementioned airline, may well have been the best candidates for the job-as evidenced by rapid upgrades early in the piece and now the first generation have widebody commands and are being elevated to training and management positions.
A 340KT descent to 20nm, followed by a DME arrival and decelerating approach, completed ( if a sim exercise ) by a 500' circling approach, is irrelevant in the real world. A good handling exercise really-sums up one's Ansett flying experience.
Couple this with a very poor application and understanding of FCOM to complete the Ansett A320 experience.
So, the guys that have lept ahead realise they have good hands on experience to fall back on, but are relatively green in their procedural application of Airbus procedures in a new airline culture.
To suggest you are the best candidate for a job, ahead of former junior colleagues who are proving successful, is an overstatement of your Ansett and domestic flying experience.
"Exclude individuals who are the best candidates for the position" is an arrogant and selfish comment; possibly an overestimate of one's worth too?
Some of your former colleagues in a aforementioned airline, may well have been the best candidates for the job-as evidenced by rapid upgrades early in the piece and now the first generation have widebody commands and are being elevated to training and management positions.
A 340KT descent to 20nm, followed by a DME arrival and decelerating approach, completed ( if a sim exercise ) by a 500' circling approach, is irrelevant in the real world. A good handling exercise really-sums up one's Ansett flying experience.
Couple this with a very poor application and understanding of FCOM to complete the Ansett A320 experience.
So, the guys that have lept ahead realise they have good hands on experience to fall back on, but are relatively green in their procedural application of Airbus procedures in a new airline culture.
To suggest you are the best candidate for a job, ahead of former junior colleagues who are proving successful, is an overstatement of your Ansett and domestic flying experience.
or what???????????????????
young family, chosed not to go o`seas. bought run down small business in leased property. lived in a caravan for 2 years, surrounded myself with LOYAL good staff (well paid). grew business, bought property, build new showroom/retail premises. sold business, (52 & well off after 15 years).
interesting??? yes. hard??? very
BUT I WOULD RATHER ........ BE FLYING
young family, chosed not to go o`seas. bought run down small business in leased property. lived in a caravan for 2 years, surrounded myself with LOYAL good staff (well paid). grew business, bought property, build new showroom/retail premises. sold business, (52 & well off after 15 years).
interesting??? yes. hard??? very
BUT I WOULD RATHER ........ BE FLYING
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Sama sama Valdaviano
48 - doing OK - nearly had to move to ADL and now have small business, doing well with very well paid and skilled staff, and would STILL prefer handing you the loadsheet with a full house down back.
You can take the boy out of the airline, but you can never take the airline out of the boy.
Best regards
EWL
48 - doing OK - nearly had to move to ADL and now have small business, doing well with very well paid and skilled staff, and would STILL prefer handing you the loadsheet with a full house down back.
You can take the boy out of the airline, but you can never take the airline out of the boy.
Best regards
EWL
