ALL NAC pilots threatened with sack!
Having spent time as a Hardy pilot and an NAC pilot, I believe I have something to offer.
NAC generally employed younger single pilots who where willing to work for nothing to get their "foot in the door".
HA used this to his advantage. He paid slighty below the award but most people accepted this. He could be a generous guy quite often. BBq's and free grog quite often.
HA could have run a better operation if he didn't have as many "hanger on's". Operate like Hardy's, you either have a job or you don't.
To many people at NAC "sniffin around for work".
NAC generally employed younger single pilots who where willing to work for nothing to get their "foot in the door".
HA used this to his advantage. He paid slighty below the award but most people accepted this. He could be a generous guy quite often. BBq's and free grog quite often.
HA could have run a better operation if he didn't have as many "hanger on's". Operate like Hardy's, you either have a job or you don't.
To many people at NAC "sniffin around for work".
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Dear D Rate
It seems that you are avoiding direct questions. eg the one from T3000 and myself? If in your spare time (Apart from bowing to the HA shrine) you get a chance to add again to this thread could you please answer those Qs. Mine is on Page 5 and T3000's is on page 6. Cheers
It seems that you are avoiding direct questions. eg the one from T3000 and myself? If in your spare time (Apart from bowing to the HA shrine) you get a chance to add again to this thread could you please answer those Qs. Mine is on Page 5 and T3000's is on page 6. Cheers
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Gentlemen,
D Rate is no longer able to contribute to this thread.
He is writing out on the blackboard 100 times;
"I must not bite the hand that allows us to posts here"
He may seek a pardon, a boon not lightly given.
D Rate is no longer able to contribute to this thread.
He is writing out on the blackboard 100 times;
"I must not bite the hand that allows us to posts here"
He may seek a pardon, a boon not lightly given.
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HA Please Explain...
I don't understand a few of things HA, if you could please clarify...
How does getting all your staff to quit and get a third party like "Best Practice Skills" involved, negate your need to pay the award?
Don't you think $28k pa is little cheap for a twin driver (adjusting for the lack of super', holiday leave, sick leave, ifr renewal BUT OVERLOOKING the lack of workers comp and liability insurance and other stuff)?
And isn't $1000 /hr a bt steep to do 310, let alone a Partnavia endorsements?
Thanks JP
How does getting all your staff to quit and get a third party like "Best Practice Skills" involved, negate your need to pay the award?
Don't you think $28k pa is little cheap for a twin driver (adjusting for the lack of super', holiday leave, sick leave, ifr renewal BUT OVERLOOKING the lack of workers comp and liability insurance and other stuff)?
And isn't $1000 /hr a bt steep to do 310, let alone a Partnavia endorsements?
Thanks JP
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The whole thing is sickening. Usually the concept of getting staff onto individual contracts or under a blanket company EBA is to negotiate a BETTER than award deal for employees or to write an employment schedule for short term contracts etc. All the NAC drivers are GA charter guys who have had an award written for them. The hard work is done. Essentially, it is the legally enforcable minimum wage for their employment and industry. HA is trying, dare I say, forcing his staff to negotiate a lower than minimum pay scale and conditions. I would suggest that he has employed Best Practice Skills to help with the fine print on the contracts as he is realisng that he better nail this one down watertight or the arbitration commission is going toi have to employ extra staff to handle his upcoming disputes. Funniest thing of all is...... nearly 7000 views on this thread and not one response from the Goat Beard himself. I'll bet that 5000 of those views are HA himself, fuming at every new post. Very very sad.
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In Perspective
This whole afair (if true, and I'm not saying it is not) is just another story in the NAC series.
It would seem that that hangar has seen its fair share of "operator induced Trouble" in its time. maybe its the word "Northern" (NTAS / NAC)
(This bit is from my own info that I have gathered from several (12) years a GA hangar on in Darwin. I am quite prepared to have it proven wrong)
HA operates a GA charter buisness, he started from the small demountables on the northern GA sometime after the move from the South.
HA is the "face" of the operation and the day to day manager. His money comes from another sorce who is also most likely pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes. All fairly normal.
When I first saw the post by D Rate, I instantly thought that this was his Backer. I even think his name is D--- R something (my spaces).
Nothing wrong with him having a opinion, within the PPRUNE rules but just maybe he has somthing to loose out of this all. Just maybe the return on the investment is not looking so good.
And just maybe HA is feeling this aprehension from the "Money" and it is bieng presented to the staff in this way.
All in all, par for the course
Richo
PS, Mate I still remember that NUDGE on the sholder at the markets.
It would seem that that hangar has seen its fair share of "operator induced Trouble" in its time. maybe its the word "Northern" (NTAS / NAC)
(This bit is from my own info that I have gathered from several (12) years a GA hangar on in Darwin. I am quite prepared to have it proven wrong)
HA operates a GA charter buisness, he started from the small demountables on the northern GA sometime after the move from the South.
HA is the "face" of the operation and the day to day manager. His money comes from another sorce who is also most likely pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes. All fairly normal.
When I first saw the post by D Rate, I instantly thought that this was his Backer. I even think his name is D--- R something (my spaces).
Nothing wrong with him having a opinion, within the PPRUNE rules but just maybe he has somthing to loose out of this all. Just maybe the return on the investment is not looking so good.
And just maybe HA is feeling this aprehension from the "Money" and it is bieng presented to the staff in this way.
All in all, par for the course
Richo
PS, Mate I still remember that NUDGE on the sholder at the markets.
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I believe that he is hesitant in paying the award because he will lose all control/upper hand/dictatorship of his staff. He won't be able to negotiate/manipulate future terms. He would hate this. Suppose you can't blame the guy considering this is the only domain he can be king of. Would be very rosy for all if he did pay the award. Others on the field do and they are successful. They have AOC, CP approvals etc. Built there companies up from scratch. Seems a bit hypocritical advertising as being the largest company in Darwin and not paying the award. Having more planes than any other operater doesn't make you the best. A happy equilibrium amongst management and pilots does.
Just a thought
Just a thought
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Name: BEST PRACTICE SKILLS PTY LTD
ACN: 088 106 585
ABN: 55 088 106 585
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date: 17/06/1999
Next Review Date: 17/06/2005
Status: Registered
Locality of Registered Office: Darwin NT 0800
ACN: 088 106 585
ABN: 55 088 106 585
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date: 17/06/1999
Next Review Date: 17/06/2005
Status: Registered
Locality of Registered Office: Darwin NT 0800
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WARNING NAC PILOTS…
Sign the contract and you could be wide open to suet in the event you stuff it!
Just been having a close review of the "contract" conditions and here's the deal for all. NAC staff can volunteer to quit and sign on as subcontractors for Best Practice Skills (a one branch employment firm in Nightcliff) who is contracted by NAC to provide pilot staff. HA has informed BPS that he only wishes to use hired contractors from now on, and therefore those who don't quit and be sub's will… well you can guess I'm sure.
As his staff are all aware I'm sure, the "contract" does not cover your 2 and 4 hour minimum payments, instrument renewals and endorsements, uniform allowance, IFR allowance. But more than this, the contract does NOT properly allow for superannuation, 6 weeks holidays per year, 15 days personal (sick) leave per year, any cover for workers compensation and leaves you wide open to public liability.
If NAC wants to pay you out FAIRLY rather than pay by the award you should see a number more like,
----------------------Single----------Twin
Basic........................29660............34128
Holidays Loaded..........2681..............3085
Holiday Unloaded.........1141...............1313
Personal Leave...........1226...............1411
IFR Renewal.................N/A..............1000
Endorsements.............1500...............2500...(from HA's own figures)
IFR/NVFR.....................993...............3971
Uniform.......................244.................244
Normal Salary.........$37,445..........$47,652
Plus....
Superannuation...........3370...............4289
Workers Comp.............2500...............2500
F/Time "Contract"....$43,315......$54,441
Casual "Contract".....$67.68 /hr...$85.07 /hr
Yep, $67 per hour if HA wants a "Contract" single pilot!!! Not the bulls___ deal he's trying to muscle on you guys.
Plus you should still get a MINIMUM of 2 hours pay, or 4 hours pay for DUTY PERIODS in excess of 4 hours.
On top of this you need, in writing, cover under a company policy for passenger and public liability insurance, otherwise add many thousands to the above numbers to insure yourself or hundreds of thousands if you don't.
NAC is looking more and more like the sweatshops of China. Sign on with the BPS agreement and you guys and gal's achieve nothing more than placing your own securities at risk. It's a straight out exploitation and a plain old rip-off job.
I would also raise question about the validity of an operator's AOC if its pilot staff cease to be fully covered under its passenger and/or public liability insurance. Maybe that’s something CASA should be looking at.
Just been having a close review of the "contract" conditions and here's the deal for all. NAC staff can volunteer to quit and sign on as subcontractors for Best Practice Skills (a one branch employment firm in Nightcliff) who is contracted by NAC to provide pilot staff. HA has informed BPS that he only wishes to use hired contractors from now on, and therefore those who don't quit and be sub's will… well you can guess I'm sure.
As his staff are all aware I'm sure, the "contract" does not cover your 2 and 4 hour minimum payments, instrument renewals and endorsements, uniform allowance, IFR allowance. But more than this, the contract does NOT properly allow for superannuation, 6 weeks holidays per year, 15 days personal (sick) leave per year, any cover for workers compensation and leaves you wide open to public liability.
If NAC wants to pay you out FAIRLY rather than pay by the award you should see a number more like,
----------------------Single----------Twin
Basic........................29660............34128
Holidays Loaded..........2681..............3085
Holiday Unloaded.........1141...............1313
Personal Leave...........1226...............1411
IFR Renewal.................N/A..............1000
Endorsements.............1500...............2500...(from HA's own figures)
IFR/NVFR.....................993...............3971
Uniform.......................244.................244
Normal Salary.........$37,445..........$47,652
Plus....
Superannuation...........3370...............4289
Workers Comp.............2500...............2500
F/Time "Contract"....$43,315......$54,441
Casual "Contract".....$67.68 /hr...$85.07 /hr
Yep, $67 per hour if HA wants a "Contract" single pilot!!! Not the bulls___ deal he's trying to muscle on you guys.
Plus you should still get a MINIMUM of 2 hours pay, or 4 hours pay for DUTY PERIODS in excess of 4 hours.
On top of this you need, in writing, cover under a company policy for passenger and public liability insurance, otherwise add many thousands to the above numbers to insure yourself or hundreds of thousands if you don't.
NAC is looking more and more like the sweatshops of China. Sign on with the BPS agreement and you guys and gal's achieve nothing more than placing your own securities at risk. It's a straight out exploitation and a plain old rip-off job.
I would also raise question about the validity of an operator's AOC if its pilot staff cease to be fully covered under its passenger and/or public liability insurance. Maybe that’s something CASA should be looking at.
Last edited by jon.pierre; 29th Jul 2004 at 13:28.
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It is also the retirement job of a former NT chief minister ........
........ (Edited by Woomera!)
It is a human resources and industrial relations consultancy run out of an office the size of a can of tuna in rundown shopping centre in Darwin. It has also previously been the subject of numerous inquiries regarding "conflicts of interest" (That is a fact thanks woomera before you call me libellous or anything else)
The legal wording of the new EBA would be getting nutted out now between these guys I would think. Regardless of that, a mass unfair dismissal action seems to be building on the horizon like a dirty great top end thunderstorm. Bring it on.
........ (Edited by Woomera!)It is a human resources and industrial relations consultancy run out of an office the size of a can of tuna in rundown shopping centre in Darwin. It has also previously been the subject of numerous inquiries regarding "conflicts of interest" (That is a fact thanks woomera before you call me libellous or anything else)
The legal wording of the new EBA would be getting nutted out now between these guys I would think. Regardless of that, a mass unfair dismissal action seems to be building on the horizon like a dirty great top end thunderstorm. Bring it on.
Last edited by Woomera; 29th Jul 2004 at 12:08.
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Some caution hear GJ, as in speaking with the Mr H' of BPS the key wording was, "if you voluntarily sign this agreement" and if you don't, "that's between you and ...... (HA)."
The guys at NAC need to stand firm and hold HA in his tracks, cos sign and fly under this contract and they sign away far more than just rights to a fair days pay.
The guys at NAC need to stand firm and hold HA in his tracks, cos sign and fly under this contract and they sign away far more than just rights to a fair days pay.
Any authentic EBA/AWA has to be reviewed by the OEA. It can not, by law, be less than the Award.
Once written, it gets sent for review to make sure that no employee will be disadvantaged compared to the award.
If you need help or information on EBA's call 03 96994200.
Bill, read this thread. Thanks for repeating and reinforcing my earlier advice.
But, hello.............., no one is listening!
Woomera
Once written, it gets sent for review to make sure that no employee will be disadvantaged compared to the award.
If you need help or information on EBA's call 03 96994200.
Bill, read this thread. Thanks for repeating and reinforcing my earlier advice.
But, hello.............., no one is listening!
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 29th Jul 2004 at 12:12.
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bogdantheturnipman
what do you mean he WILL be a despised man in the Top end???
He already is......
sorry couldnt help myself....please....forgive me......amen.
Love Loc.
Uncalled for comment!
what do you mean he WILL be a despised man in the Top end???
He already is......
sorry couldnt help myself....please....forgive me......amen.
Love Loc.
Uncalled for comment!
Last edited by Woomera; 29th Jul 2004 at 12:12.
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Is this company endeavouring to sub contract it's crewing to a labour hire company in order to avoid Pilot's Award obligations?
If so, any existing employees would need to voluntarily resign from the operation company holding the AOC, prior to signing a "contract" with the non operating labour hire company.
Why would any pilot voluntarily extinguish his/their Award rights by resigning?
And the CAO's require a Chief Pilot to be an employee of the AOC holder.
If so, any existing employees would need to voluntarily resign from the operation company holding the AOC, prior to signing a "contract" with the non operating labour hire company.
Why would any pilot voluntarily extinguish his/their Award rights by resigning?
And the CAO's require a Chief Pilot to be an employee of the AOC holder.
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I was under the impression that most (all) of NAC's pilots were casual. I don't know NT law very well, but I doubt there are unfair dismissal laws for casual workers. These proposed arrangements sound a little bit like Air Crews Control from the dim distant past.
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Air Ace
You are absolutely correct! Employees would have to resign from their current jobs. BUT, that my dear friend would be the WORST thing that they could possibly do. If, employees resign it’s GAME OVER for the poor old nac Pilot. It will change aviation in the Top End.
My advice to Pilots is the same as Woomera’s WHAT EVER YOU DO, DON’T SIGN A CONTRACT AND DONT RESIGN!
(seek advice were you can.)
Oh! and Air Ace don’t worry about the CP it wont affect him. He owes HA his first born.
Loc.
You are absolutely correct! Employees would have to resign from their current jobs. BUT, that my dear friend would be the WORST thing that they could possibly do. If, employees resign it’s GAME OVER for the poor old nac Pilot. It will change aviation in the Top End.
My advice to Pilots is the same as Woomera’s WHAT EVER YOU DO, DON’T SIGN A CONTRACT AND DONT RESIGN!
(seek advice were you can.)
Oh! and Air Ace don’t worry about the CP it wont affect him. He owes HA his first born.
Loc.
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What I don't understand is that the award became law on March 28th 2004. That is 4 months ago and as mentioned before operators knew of this well before March. If the award is not paid then surely this is breaking the law? Saw an ad in the NT News the other day showing the man in question with the Chief minister of the NT advertising his citation. He has been flying various NT govt officials around including the CM. libellous allegation!! Woomera
just another thought. If he does adhere to the award will his pilot\'s get back pay as of 28th March 2004?
libellous allegation!! Woomerajust another thought. If he does adhere to the award will his pilot\'s get back pay as of 28th March 2004?
Last edited by Woomera; 31st Jul 2004 at 08:16.
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I wouldn`t accuse anyone of corruption. Just heavily discounted rates! Like a Citation to Elcho Island for the cost of a Cheiftan! Talk about undercutting the opposition.
More than highlights the concerns of other operators not being on a level playing field.
I take it that no one has been sacked yet?
So it will be interesting to see if he employs any new pilots under the contract system. Moe interesting to see how much flying they get. Even more interesting to see how the current group of pilots react when and if it does happen.
If someone is willing to work for those conditions they must have someone financially supporting thier cost of living. For instance well off parents. For someone to be that well off they probably own their own business or know alot about finance and probably employee entitlements. And know full well that if their little boy/girl takes this underpayin job to get a start in the industry, that when they move on to a bigger and better job, big Daddy will be able to reclaim his financial support through legal action and the employer wouldn`t have any recourse. Contract singed or not. Problem is, NAC wouldn`t be the employer, therefore would get away with it!!
More than highlights the concerns of other operators not being on a level playing field.
I take it that no one has been sacked yet?
So it will be interesting to see if he employs any new pilots under the contract system. Moe interesting to see how much flying they get. Even more interesting to see how the current group of pilots react when and if it does happen.
If someone is willing to work for those conditions they must have someone financially supporting thier cost of living. For instance well off parents. For someone to be that well off they probably own their own business or know alot about finance and probably employee entitlements. And know full well that if their little boy/girl takes this underpayin job to get a start in the industry, that when they move on to a bigger and better job, big Daddy will be able to reclaim his financial support through legal action and the employer wouldn`t have any recourse. Contract singed or not. Problem is, NAC wouldn`t be the employer, therefore would get away with it!!