AOPA Doing Fine.
Ron
Congratulations and good luck.
Some handy hints, given in utmost good faith:
1. Make this the last occasion on which you talk about or publish anything about Board deliberations, outside the Board.
2. Make this the last occasion on which you publish anything without getting it proof-read and corrected first.
It’s a cruel world, and one of its many cruelties is that
[Professors Michael Meehan and Graham Tulloch]
Congratulations and good luck.
Some handy hints, given in utmost good faith:
1. Make this the last occasion on which you talk about or publish anything about Board deliberations, outside the Board.
2. Make this the last occasion on which you publish anything without getting it proof-read and corrected first.
It’s a cruel world, and one of its many cruelties is that
Like IQ tests and mathematics, grammar has often served as a social marker, signalling the divide between the bright and dim, the elite and the rabble, and in rare instances, the sane and the silly
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Creampuff
Perfect spelling and grammar have also hidden many an agenda proffered by the unscrupulous
- or have been a manifestation of obsessive compulsive disorder....
Safe flying
PS : Ron
Thanks for your apparent candidness on the matter.
Perfect spelling and grammar have also hidden many an agenda proffered by the unscrupulous
- or have been a manifestation of obsessive compulsive disorder.... Safe flying
PS : Ron
Thanks for your apparent candidness on the matter.
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PROBLEMS???
Well
Having been involved with a lot of aero clubs in my past I can see a familiar thread emerging.
The good work of a few dedicated AOPA people is being constantly undermined by the whinging of a very small, unstable minority, who will never accept the will of the majority of AOPA members, as expressed in the election, and will only shut up when they have destroyed the association.
These few noisy stupid people will be the downfall of GA in Australia, but only if we allow it to happen by paying any attention at all to these idiots, wherever they post.
Read the posts, identify the names, work out who has put up (i.e who is doing the work) and who should shut up.
Then support the people working their guts out, understand it isn't easy and is never a smooth runway, and give them your full support.
PT
Having been involved with a lot of aero clubs in my past I can see a familiar thread emerging.
The good work of a few dedicated AOPA people is being constantly undermined by the whinging of a very small, unstable minority, who will never accept the will of the majority of AOPA members, as expressed in the election, and will only shut up when they have destroyed the association.
These few noisy stupid people will be the downfall of GA in Australia, but only if we allow it to happen by paying any attention at all to these idiots, wherever they post.
Read the posts, identify the names, work out who has put up (i.e who is doing the work) and who should shut up.
Then support the people working their guts out, understand it isn't easy and is never a smooth runway, and give them your full support.
PT
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"I posted on Prune a response to Marjorie Pagani's AOPA press release relating to her resignation from the board due to the actions of Gary Gaunt".
In that post I said: "the accusations that the board did not sanction Gary's actions again that is not true". That statement was factually incorrect, and I wish to apologise unreservedly for making that statement, and for any embarrassment it may have caused Marjorie Pagani.
This apology has been endorsed by Ron Lawford, as president of AOPA.
In that post I said: "the accusations that the board did not sanction Gary's actions again that is not true". That statement was factually incorrect, and I wish to apologise unreservedly for making that statement, and for any embarrassment it may have caused Marjorie Pagani.
This apology has been endorsed by Ron Lawford, as president of AOPA.
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Looks like legalese, Ron
Now Ron, don't respond to this, but it looks like someone's told you what to say - a lawyer maybe...
A legal sounding apology...after writing your view of what happened. You seem like a good honest player to me...so were you threatened with legal action??
Don't answer that either...
No, let's think...a possible legal threat...to a current baord member...could be from a litigious cow...
Who has a beef with the current board? Who's been public about it? Who has legal quals....
Hmmm I think I know who might be threatening the current board with legal nonsense...Can you work it out?
A legal sounding apology...after writing your view of what happened. You seem like a good honest player to me...so were you threatened with legal action??
Don't answer that either...
No, let's think...a possible legal threat...to a current baord member...could be from a litigious cow...
Who has a beef with the current board? Who's been public about it? Who has legal quals....
Hmmm I think I know who might be threatening the current board with legal nonsense...Can you work it out?
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Poox
I think you might be onto something there.
I'd heard that this crap went on. Lawyers threatening action everytime something doesn't go their way. I reckon it stinks.
Why can't these losers just let the new board get on with the job? How can the board possibly be effective and look after our rights when they are having to fight rearguard actions from disgruntled idiots?
Not Happy
MaxyB
I think you might be onto something there.
I'd heard that this crap went on. Lawyers threatening action everytime something doesn't go their way. I reckon it stinks.
Why can't these losers just let the new board get on with the job? How can the board possibly be effective and look after our rights when they are having to fight rearguard actions from disgruntled idiots?
Not Happy
MaxyB
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I told you so
I posted a while back on this phenomena, but related to aero clubs.
What I think has happened.
Ex-Pres Pagani tried to do something. The rest of the committee didn't support it.
She spat the dummy and quit.
Now she wants to bring the whole house of cards down along with her.
This is not only pathetic, but seems to me it has become typical of the actions of past presidents for at least the last few terms.
Unfotunately the position of President attracts huge self interested egos, absolute in their knowledge that they, and only they, are right in everything. It has been that way for many a year now.
When that little fantasy crumbles they go about destroying the very thing they promised us, by standing for election, that they would cherish.
AOPA
These people make me and I personally damn them all to hell along with all the lawyers!!!!! (and if they happen to be both, weeeelllll!!!).
BUT, with that off my chest, the remainder of the Board seems to be quietly getting on with it
Well, when they can spare the time away from responding to
lawyers and their evil threats.
PT
What I think has happened.
Ex-Pres Pagani tried to do something. The rest of the committee didn't support it.
She spat the dummy and quit.
Now she wants to bring the whole house of cards down along with her.
This is not only pathetic, but seems to me it has become typical of the actions of past presidents for at least the last few terms.
Unfotunately the position of President attracts huge self interested egos, absolute in their knowledge that they, and only they, are right in everything. It has been that way for many a year now.
When that little fantasy crumbles they go about destroying the very thing they promised us, by standing for election, that they would cherish.
AOPA
These people make me
and I personally damn them all to hell along with all the lawyers!!!!! (and if they happen to be both, weeeelllll!!!).BUT, with that off my chest, the remainder of the Board seems to be quietly getting on with it
Well, when they can spare the time away from responding to
lawyers and their evil threats.PT
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I've known Ron for quite a few years now, and know he is an extremely hard working and honest person who has the advancement of aviation and GA especially at heart. I'm sure that he didn't intentionally mean to mislead or embarrass anyone.
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Not content to de-stabilise with legal threats, I've just heard that they are trying to get an EGM together.
I won't be signing anything those mongrels try and put in front of me. I didn't join AOPA for this sh*t.
Country lawyers and retired Q captains...that's all we need.
Let the current team get on with the job!!!!
I won't be signing anything those mongrels try and put in front of me. I didn't join AOPA for this sh*t.
Country lawyers and retired Q captains...that's all we need.
Let the current team get on with the job!!!!
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Hmmmm
Suffice to say I am being careful in what I say!!! 
Ron Lawford is an excellent President. He is a quiet achiever who includes his team in both preparation, action and praise.
Ron Bertram is an excelelnt Vice President. He is an open honest gentleman who never wishes anyone ill-will. he is also a magnificent instructor, he is highly knowledgable and works his @#$% off representing our members.
There is, as always, some agitation on the Board. Same old same old.
But the other eight are trying to ignore it and are just getting on with the job.
Please rally behind them.
Thanks to all the GENUINE aviators out there who are giving us their support.
Andrew
Ron Lawford is an excellent President. He is a quiet achiever who includes his team in both preparation, action and praise.
Ron Bertram is an excelelnt Vice President. He is an open honest gentleman who never wishes anyone ill-will. he is also a magnificent instructor, he is highly knowledgable and works his @#$% off representing our members.
There is, as always, some agitation on the Board. Same old same old.
But the other eight are trying to ignore it and are just getting on with the job.
Please rally behind them.
Thanks to all the GENUINE aviators out there who are giving us their support.
Andrew
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As a member of AOPA for over 30 years I applaud the comments of Ron B and am most disappointed that he has obviously been threatened in some way. It is good at last to see open comments from some Board members - the first time in maybe ten years. (provided they speak in accordance with policy and in a responsible manner) It is also good to see the Presidents face on TV.
All the actions of members must always be in the best interests of AOPA. This especially applies to Board members. It is always sad to see the egos that seem to explode once the status (?) of Board member is achieved.
Marjorie had her opportunity and she failed, so now that she has chosen to move on, she must let it be and as a previous scribe said don't bring down the pack of cards on the way out. It will only backfire in the long run.
I might add that I supported Marjorie at election time, but her failure to listen to the membership together with some poor decisions only brought about the circumstances we have seen of late. It was only a matter of time !
Ron Lawford has taken the reins and we should all support him and his team. Yes there are one or two bits of dead (rotting?) wood still on the Board, but I am sure they will get the message and move on also. Once that happens we can move forward as one again.
All the actions of members must always be in the best interests of AOPA. This especially applies to Board members. It is always sad to see the egos that seem to explode once the status (?) of Board member is achieved.
Marjorie had her opportunity and she failed, so now that she has chosen to move on, she must let it be and as a previous scribe said don't bring down the pack of cards on the way out. It will only backfire in the long run.
I might add that I supported Marjorie at election time, but her failure to listen to the membership together with some poor decisions only brought about the circumstances we have seen of late. It was only a matter of time !
Ron Lawford has taken the reins and we should all support him and his team. Yes there are one or two bits of dead (rotting?) wood still on the Board, but I am sure they will get the message and move on also. Once that happens we can move forward as one again.
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AOPA Board Hassles
It is indeed unfortunate, that there is again division at Board Level.
Rather than give up on AOPA I believe that this is a signal for all of us at grass roots level, to take some time to look at our organisation, and rather than sit back and let some one else do all of the work, put our hands up and offer some assistance.
There are many difficulties that need to be addressed, and it would seem that it is to much to expect that a few elected Board members, have the time and expertise to deal with all of these issues, without some input from those members who they are trying to support and work for.
To take the responsibility to work for this Board, require a great deal of dedication of time and effort, and it seems to me that they have been asked to do everything themselves.
The difficulties over the past few years, would seem to indicate that maybe we should consider changes, so that our elected Board members are given greater support and assistance.
There have been suggestions that we have area representatives, who could be non executive officers for AOPA and who would be used to channel information through to members in their area.
We have in place already affiliated aero clubs, so why not make these affiliated Aero Clubs, area representatives. This would enable grass roots members to have more say, and to be actively involved in discussions, before decisions are reached.
How can we know if the decisions arrived at are good ones, if we do not know about the lead up discussions and arguments.
I would ask that members take the time to find out what has been going on, and then to commence making some direct contributions.
If you have some ideas and concerns, then now is the time to speak, and perhaps recommend some changes for the improvement of this organisation. We need to be constructive and work together to inform our Board of the wishes of their members.
We are fortunate to have this forum, that allows for comments and recomendations, via a medium that has access to most of our members, and very little cost. So please use it constructively.
Rather than give up on AOPA I believe that this is a signal for all of us at grass roots level, to take some time to look at our organisation, and rather than sit back and let some one else do all of the work, put our hands up and offer some assistance.
There are many difficulties that need to be addressed, and it would seem that it is to much to expect that a few elected Board members, have the time and expertise to deal with all of these issues, without some input from those members who they are trying to support and work for.
To take the responsibility to work for this Board, require a great deal of dedication of time and effort, and it seems to me that they have been asked to do everything themselves.
The difficulties over the past few years, would seem to indicate that maybe we should consider changes, so that our elected Board members are given greater support and assistance.
There have been suggestions that we have area representatives, who could be non executive officers for AOPA and who would be used to channel information through to members in their area.
We have in place already affiliated aero clubs, so why not make these affiliated Aero Clubs, area representatives. This would enable grass roots members to have more say, and to be actively involved in discussions, before decisions are reached.
How can we know if the decisions arrived at are good ones, if we do not know about the lead up discussions and arguments.
I would ask that members take the time to find out what has been going on, and then to commence making some direct contributions.
If you have some ideas and concerns, then now is the time to speak, and perhaps recommend some changes for the improvement of this organisation. We need to be constructive and work together to inform our Board of the wishes of their members.
We are fortunate to have this forum, that allows for comments and recomendations, via a medium that has access to most of our members, and very little cost. So please use it constructively.
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Been away flying and come home to this... Interesting,
Now let me get this correct.
Bertram apologises to Pagani publicly and confirms that the board did not sanction Gaunts actions, that what he said in his statement on PPRUNE is a lie and then she gets the bucketing!!!
The sad part of this is that it would seem that he had to be threatened in th first place. I would have thought for someone in the position he holds that people dealing with him would expect that he tells the truth. Is it the case now that CASA or others have to sit there and second guess whether this is the case. Triadic you seem to endorse this?
I'm sure most people, irrespective of whether they were a lawyer, would be seeking to get the wrong put right. Surely what AOPA needs is people that place the principle before their ego's and personal likes and dislikes. Surely it's only correct that the President be advised of a development and all the board members have ownership of a decision and put their two cents worth in. Surely there should be a mechanism in place to prevent someone ringing around a faction to get enough members of the board to support their personal view (although there is no evidence that even this took place.)
I should also remind everyone that Bertram also claims to be a lawyer and would have made the apology understanding the ramifications for and against. He's a big boy and has done the right thing!!
It would seem that almost everyone here including AOPA board members is suggesting that a blind eye should be turned to their actions and anything they say or do can be justified as them being board members and puting in. It's a seige mentality. The fact of the matter is that not only does the AOPA board have to do the right thing it must be seen to the right thing. The suggestion that they should be secretive is absurd.
Bertram has stood up and admitted the problem and I don't for one minute suggest that he in fact had anything to do with the original issue of a member, on the face of it, acting unilateraly and to the detriment of the board position on this issue and maybe general aviation in the wider text. Lets hope that this doesn't turn out to be the case.
I applaud the fact that these people are giving of their time and effort to AOPA, but I don't applaud the actions and consequences or excuse them out of hand just because to do so is dismissed by them as being almost unpatriotic. I could also add you get the representaion you deserve.
I for one won't stop criticising AOPA if I think what they are doing is incorrect. Convince me and others otherwise. To be honest, AOPA manage to do enough damage all by themselves and the little criticism they get here palls into insignificance. The occurance of this saga and all the goings on after just confirm it.
The other reality is that a lot members are only members because they subscribe to the magazine like I do although I did renew it last year after some 15 years as the indications from this forum was that things would change. If it takes unsubscribing to stop AOPA saying they represent me as a member then that is how it is.
The issue at hand here which hasn't been answered directly is did Gaunt send a letter to CASA reversing or changing AOPA's position at that time. The indirect answer would be appear to yes and the next component of that is that those actions appear to have been endorsed by the present board. This is not an issue of whether the present position on th issue is a correct one. The issue here is whether AOPA has an effective board and let's consider that AOPA claims to represent the interests of General Aviation.
In terms of how it was handled, it would have been better for Bertram to admit it happened, it was regretable, that they understand Pangani's position and apologise, have moved to prevent the manner in how it happened from happening again while informing the masses that while the process wasn't correct, the outcome as far as the issue is concerned has the majority support of the board and AOPA believes it to be correct and explain why.
The sad thing from my point of view is that it seemed as though AOPA had got the mix right and had set down the path of a consultative and considered path rather than appearing to fight with CASA and others for the sake of it, where the major issues were lost in the mire of all the minor issues and fights.
The fact of the matter, as I have said before, is that AOPA is irrelevant because of the way it acts and is seen to act. CASA must just laugh their heads off. AOPA is gridlocked in its' own politics including having some board members whose best defence is to call people who comment or criticise as D@ckheads or scum (although I note that that last reference has been removed from the AOPA website forum recently - a very wise move too I would have thought.) or say, as they have in this forum, that you should only ask reasonable questions if you expect a reply.
signed,
A soon to be ex member of AOPA ( January I think!) and one of those D@ckheads and now it would seem scum. (Ron, you need to put a gag on that man!!)
Now let me get this correct.
Bertram apologises to Pagani publicly and confirms that the board did not sanction Gaunts actions, that what he said in his statement on PPRUNE is a lie and then she gets the bucketing!!!
The sad part of this is that it would seem that he had to be threatened in th first place. I would have thought for someone in the position he holds that people dealing with him would expect that he tells the truth. Is it the case now that CASA or others have to sit there and second guess whether this is the case. Triadic you seem to endorse this?
I'm sure most people, irrespective of whether they were a lawyer, would be seeking to get the wrong put right. Surely what AOPA needs is people that place the principle before their ego's and personal likes and dislikes. Surely it's only correct that the President be advised of a development and all the board members have ownership of a decision and put their two cents worth in. Surely there should be a mechanism in place to prevent someone ringing around a faction to get enough members of the board to support their personal view (although there is no evidence that even this took place.)
I should also remind everyone that Bertram also claims to be a lawyer and would have made the apology understanding the ramifications for and against. He's a big boy and has done the right thing!!
It would seem that almost everyone here including AOPA board members is suggesting that a blind eye should be turned to their actions and anything they say or do can be justified as them being board members and puting in. It's a seige mentality. The fact of the matter is that not only does the AOPA board have to do the right thing it must be seen to the right thing. The suggestion that they should be secretive is absurd.
Bertram has stood up and admitted the problem and I don't for one minute suggest that he in fact had anything to do with the original issue of a member, on the face of it, acting unilateraly and to the detriment of the board position on this issue and maybe general aviation in the wider text. Lets hope that this doesn't turn out to be the case.
I applaud the fact that these people are giving of their time and effort to AOPA, but I don't applaud the actions and consequences or excuse them out of hand just because to do so is dismissed by them as being almost unpatriotic. I could also add you get the representaion you deserve.
I for one won't stop criticising AOPA if I think what they are doing is incorrect. Convince me and others otherwise. To be honest, AOPA manage to do enough damage all by themselves and the little criticism they get here palls into insignificance. The occurance of this saga and all the goings on after just confirm it.
The other reality is that a lot members are only members because they subscribe to the magazine like I do although I did renew it last year after some 15 years as the indications from this forum was that things would change. If it takes unsubscribing to stop AOPA saying they represent me as a member then that is how it is.
The issue at hand here which hasn't been answered directly is did Gaunt send a letter to CASA reversing or changing AOPA's position at that time. The indirect answer would be appear to yes and the next component of that is that those actions appear to have been endorsed by the present board. This is not an issue of whether the present position on th issue is a correct one. The issue here is whether AOPA has an effective board and let's consider that AOPA claims to represent the interests of General Aviation.
In terms of how it was handled, it would have been better for Bertram to admit it happened, it was regretable, that they understand Pangani's position and apologise, have moved to prevent the manner in how it happened from happening again while informing the masses that while the process wasn't correct, the outcome as far as the issue is concerned has the majority support of the board and AOPA believes it to be correct and explain why.
The sad thing from my point of view is that it seemed as though AOPA had got the mix right and had set down the path of a consultative and considered path rather than appearing to fight with CASA and others for the sake of it, where the major issues were lost in the mire of all the minor issues and fights.
The fact of the matter, as I have said before, is that AOPA is irrelevant because of the way it acts and is seen to act. CASA must just laugh their heads off. AOPA is gridlocked in its' own politics including having some board members whose best defence is to call people who comment or criticise as D@ckheads or scum (although I note that that last reference has been removed from the AOPA website forum recently - a very wise move too I would have thought.) or say, as they have in this forum, that you should only ask reasonable questions if you expect a reply.
signed,
A soon to be ex member of AOPA ( January I think!) and one of those D@ckheads and now it would seem scum. (Ron, you need to put a gag on that man!!)
Last edited by d_concord; 30th Nov 2003 at 13:47.
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Concord,
you need to go and swat up on defamation law in Australia. if you ask a real lawyer, they'll tell you that defamation law has nothing to do with the truth, just whether the alleged defamed person believes that their reputation has been damaged.
Hmmm - I stick with the theory in my first posting.
you need to go and swat up on defamation law in Australia. if you ask a real lawyer, they'll tell you that defamation law has nothing to do with the truth, just whether the alleged defamed person believes that their reputation has been damaged.
Hmmm - I stick with the theory in my first posting.
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Poox,
Pray tell,
Just where was did I say she was defamed? I'm not sure she even was. I would suggest that she had proof that what she said was correct.
If the issue here is the truth - Pagani told it, Bertram didn't
Pray tell,
Just where was did I say she was defamed? I'm not sure she even was. I would suggest that she had proof that what she said was correct.
If the issue here is the truth - Pagani told it, Bertram didn't
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AOPA Doing Fine.
Seems the pundits were wrong.
Post the resignation of Marjorie Pagani, things at AOPA seem to be running along quite smoothly.
I like being asked how I feel about NAS, I like the way NAS is being cautiously supported. I like the fact that the face on TV now represents AOPA and me, not just their own personal agenda.
I like the new AOPA.
PT
Post the resignation of Marjorie Pagani, things at AOPA seem to be running along quite smoothly.
I like being asked how I feel about NAS, I like the way NAS is being cautiously supported. I like the fact that the face on TV now represents AOPA and me, not just their own personal agenda.
I like the new AOPA.
PT
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I have heard things are still not fixed on the home turf. It appears the situation with the AOPA forum is still not fixed........
Quite a few members voice there concerns for an EGM.
From the AOPA forum..........
I HAVE JUST ACTIVATED ON THIS fORUM. Some will remember me as the former Editor of AOPA magazine. As such I saw Directors come and go.. I saw infighting and selfless work on behalf of the organisation. I was not allowed to comment politically while editor but now I am unfettered!
BUT
The Board MUST speak not with forked tongue but with one voice.
I am for a new election of officers...
And the sooner the better!
The present Board will be tainted with what people imagine not what they did or did not do.
Give us a break and start afresh! It wouldn't be the first time and it wouldn't be the last.
I back Ron Hayward in this.
I expect members are rattled somewhat by this dissention in the leadership and it behooves the leadership to clear the air promptly.
A new broom sweeps clean? This is what we were expecting from the last Board, but personal interests often come into play too. Hard to rid of them!
The Board also needs to answer emails and respond to concerns in a timely fashion. Communication between Directors and with members is essential.
I believe the Board has tried to do a good job and it is unfortunate that this incident has blown up...
BEACH BOY
Quite a few members voice there concerns for an EGM.
From the AOPA forum..........
I HAVE JUST ACTIVATED ON THIS fORUM. Some will remember me as the former Editor of AOPA magazine. As such I saw Directors come and go.. I saw infighting and selfless work on behalf of the organisation. I was not allowed to comment politically while editor but now I am unfettered!
BUT
The Board MUST speak not with forked tongue but with one voice.
I am for a new election of officers...
And the sooner the better!
The present Board will be tainted with what people imagine not what they did or did not do.
Give us a break and start afresh! It wouldn't be the first time and it wouldn't be the last.
I back Ron Hayward in this.
I expect members are rattled somewhat by this dissention in the leadership and it behooves the leadership to clear the air promptly.
A new broom sweeps clean? This is what we were expecting from the last Board, but personal interests often come into play too. Hard to rid of them!
The Board also needs to answer emails and respond to concerns in a timely fashion. Communication between Directors and with members is essential.
I believe the Board has tried to do a good job and it is unfortunate that this incident has blown up...
BEACH BOY
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Like P_T says the pundits were wrong.
Piper Arrow,
Pray tell, please let's not be coy, what is the problem on the AOPA Forum and home turf that needs fixing.?
Innuendo and the "when did you stop beating your wife" type questions really don't help us fix whatever it is you may think is the problem.
Ring Ron Bertram, Ron Lawford, Andrew Kerans, Adrienne Williams or Mick Kennedy and they will take it on board or give you the facts, there is a very great deal of misinformation being peddled out there.
Piper Arrow,
Pray tell, please let's not be coy, what is the problem on the AOPA Forum and home turf that needs fixing.?
Innuendo and the "when did you stop beating your wife" type questions really don't help us fix whatever it is you may think is the problem.
Ring Ron Bertram, Ron Lawford, Andrew Kerans, Adrienne Williams or Mick Kennedy and they will take it on board or give you the facts, there is a very great deal of misinformation being peddled out there.