2003 cadets will be employed by Air North as First Officers on Brasilias
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And let me just add, that if a cadet is employed as a SO or FO for say 10 years then they will gain command time but at a fraction of how long the flight took.
So you may have a pilot (ie -> cadet) with 2000 hours command built up over a period of time but most of that so called command time has been over water or land and the FMS is flying the plane.
When you compare this with an equivilant time pilot from GA, then you will find that he has had more stick time which has got to be more valuable right........chances are too that he has done a lot more t/o's and landings......another important aspect, and probably dealt with ****ty and troublesome customers which is all good experience in my view.
So you may have a pilot (ie -> cadet) with 2000 hours command built up over a period of time but most of that so called command time has been over water or land and the FMS is flying the plane.
When you compare this with an equivilant time pilot from GA, then you will find that he has had more stick time which has got to be more valuable right........chances are too that he has done a lot more t/o's and landings......another important aspect, and probably dealt with ****ty and troublesome customers which is all good experience in my view.
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A GA pilot is a pilot who can handle alot of different situations. From dodging CB's to failing equipment the experience learnt is tremendous. GA guys with 2000+ hours have REAL flying experience and have more than likely moved up the tree from the start.
In no way do I intend to offend cadets but lets look at the command problem. 1000 hours metro RHS then into command in a 210, majority of the time the result is herrendous and the work load is simply too much. Mind you like anything some are great.
Now take that same cadet and advance him into the SO/ FO slot then the progression will be natural. As for eventually being command as a pax I feel I would want someone driving that had some real pressure command time (aka GA). However the cadets are trainined different to GA likewise the military. Each different method has its values and desired reults.
Interesting subject really...
In no way do I intend to offend cadets but lets look at the command problem. 1000 hours metro RHS then into command in a 210, majority of the time the result is herrendous and the work load is simply too much. Mind you like anything some are great.
Now take that same cadet and advance him into the SO/ FO slot then the progression will be natural. As for eventually being command as a pax I feel I would want someone driving that had some real pressure command time (aka GA). However the cadets are trainined different to GA likewise the military. Each different method has its values and desired reults.
Interesting subject really...
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Air North receives $10,000 per cadet, and secures them for 2 years. They've had cadets in the past and have been happy with the product so they have no hesitation about taking them on again.
Mr Garrison, tell me, what is so unsafe about the QF system?
Good luck to all the cadets, prove these cynical bastards wrong!
Cheers,
CC
I think QF should adapt a recruitment style that is a cross between Virgin and RAAF......maybe that would produce a fairer and safer system.
Good luck to all the cadets, prove these cynical bastards wrong!
Cheers,
CC
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I also heard that last time Air North took on Q Cadets the agreement was also that Qantas wouldn't poach any of the Air North drivers for a couple of years......
Is this true and if so is it gonna be the case again ?????
I'd be spewing if I was at Air North and this was the case.....
Is this true and if so is it gonna be the case again ?????
I'd be spewing if I was at Air North and this was the case.....
Props are for boats!
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Cap 10 Cavemen,
If what you say is correct then thats explains the situation tremendously. Money Talks as the say. I would recruit a dozen Cadets if I was getting $10,000.00 up front for each one.
Has parallels to ancient slave trading doesnt it. When the Slave Trader couldnt sell some of his Product, he would pay the buyer to take them away . Only kidding.
What you missed out on learning before flying a larger Jet or Turboprop , you certainly wont learn once you are flying one. Thats for sure. No amount of training can replace experience.
Good Luck to the Cadet that get the chance
Regards
Sheep
If what you say is correct then thats explains the situation tremendously. Money Talks as the say. I would recruit a dozen Cadets if I was getting $10,000.00 up front for each one.
Has parallels to ancient slave trading doesnt it. When the Slave Trader couldnt sell some of his Product, he would pay the buyer to take them away . Only kidding.What you missed out on learning before flying a larger Jet or Turboprop , you certainly wont learn once you are flying one. Thats for sure. No amount of training can replace experience.
Good Luck to the Cadet that get the chance
Regards
Sheep
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BA, Lufthansa, SAS and plenty of other airlines have cadets that don't mess with GA. And they seem to cope fine in a heavy. Why is it only Australians have a thing about the importance of GA and how that time in a sh*tbox 402 up north somewhere is going to prepare me better for flying my 747 into LA?
BA hires via GA as well and you don't hear them bitching on about the cadets. QF cadets are a bunch of people who have taken up an opportunity, if you were in their shoes you'd probably do the same.
BA hires via GA as well and you don't hear them bitching on about the cadets. QF cadets are a bunch of people who have taken up an opportunity, if you were in their shoes you'd probably do the same.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
USA and Canada place importance on GA flying.
I have heard BA pilots bitch about cadets. I have also heard some low cost airline captains really bitch about low houred guys sitting in the RHS. Cadet or not. They just don't bitch about it publicly. I have heard my captains bitch about the low hour guys. (Note, some not all).
As they have said, you cannot take your eyes off them for a moment and they can be a bit of a liability when the weather is rubbish.
Note, some not all low houred guys.
I have heard BA pilots bitch about cadets. I have also heard some low cost airline captains really bitch about low houred guys sitting in the RHS. Cadet or not. They just don't bitch about it publicly. I have heard my captains bitch about the low hour guys. (Note, some not all).
As they have said, you cannot take your eyes off them for a moment and they can be a bit of a liability when the weather is rubbish.
Note, some not all low houred guys.
Props are for boats!
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Still albatros,
Yes fair comment, but I fear the situation is different in Europe because there really isnt much of a GA Job base for newcomers to get their hours, hence alot of Cadet schemes for the Big Carriers and wannabees going to the US and OZ to hour build etc. Different enviroments really. Its just us Ozzies going through a transition mate....allthough Cadet schemes been around for awhile in Oz.
Ah yes I would say any company that operates equipment under 5700kg are still GA and Air North still qualify.
Redsnail,
yYou are right about the US and Canada still have a reasonable GA base to get work prior to Airlines, plus lots of Corporate Jet Jobs " largest growing sector".
Sheep
Yes fair comment, but I fear the situation is different in Europe because there really isnt much of a GA Job base for newcomers to get their hours, hence alot of Cadet schemes for the Big Carriers and wannabees going to the US and OZ to hour build etc. Different enviroments really. Its just us Ozzies going through a transition mate....allthough Cadet schemes been around for awhile in Oz.
Ah yes I would say any company that operates equipment under 5700kg are still GA and Air North still qualify.
Redsnail,
yYou are right about the US and Canada still have a reasonable GA base to get work prior to Airlines, plus lots of Corporate Jet Jobs " largest growing sector".
Sheep
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They have worked hard, they were the 3% to get through initial testing! How did you go?
Not all completed the course to Qantas standard, and therefore will not make it to Airnorth or ********.
I wonder how they (Qantas cadets) are feeling right now knowing the opinion of the crowd they will be flying with.
Those that did complete the course well done!
Not all completed the course to Qantas standard, and therefore will not make it to Airnorth or ********.
I wonder how they (Qantas cadets) are feeling right now knowing the opinion of the crowd they will be flying with.
Those that did complete the course well done!
Last edited by RHMM; 29th Oct 2003 at 09:04.
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Sheep Guts said:
"What you missed out on learning before flying a larger Jet or Turboprop , you certainly wont learn once you are flying one. Thats for sure. No amount of training can replace experience."
And can I say that he has absolutely nailed it. I wish I had come up with that one.
The fact of the matter is that GA sorts out those that really really really want it. Cause if you've got any weakness in motivation toward a flying career you WILL fail in GA. It is just simply too hard to hack and too easy to give away. This is a classic example -Chap works for 5 yrs to get a job on a Bras only to get it pinched by someone with 200 hrs. What to do? Give up? Cry? Nah carry on - another day, another hurdle and the GA hard yarders never ever give up no matter how tough, gloomy and impossible it all seems.
Good luck to those who can miss all the blood sweat and tears of GA to get straight on a jet - I wish you well. All I can say is that IF I ever get a gig flying for the white rat or VB the feeling I will have and the value I will give to that position will be unmatched. The memories of GA and the determination required will always be there.
As for training - ah done that one to. Got a loan that you'd cringe at and did what the Ansetts and QF's wanted and I suppose still want. I can tell you that I knew sweet fark all about anything with my 200 hrs of academy training. Thats just me..oh and all the other course members....mmm...?
The command time has been great for my confidence, airmanship and general flying skills.
Good luck to all. Mr. Hat.
"What you missed out on learning before flying a larger Jet or Turboprop , you certainly wont learn once you are flying one. Thats for sure. No amount of training can replace experience."
And can I say that he has absolutely nailed it. I wish I had come up with that one.
The fact of the matter is that GA sorts out those that really really really want it. Cause if you've got any weakness in motivation toward a flying career you WILL fail in GA. It is just simply too hard to hack and too easy to give away. This is a classic example -Chap works for 5 yrs to get a job on a Bras only to get it pinched by someone with 200 hrs. What to do? Give up? Cry? Nah carry on - another day, another hurdle and the GA hard yarders never ever give up no matter how tough, gloomy and impossible it all seems.
Good luck to those who can miss all the blood sweat and tears of GA to get straight on a jet - I wish you well. All I can say is that IF I ever get a gig flying for the white rat or VB the feeling I will have and the value I will give to that position will be unmatched. The memories of GA and the determination required will always be there.
As for training - ah done that one to. Got a loan that you'd cringe at and did what the Ansetts and QF's wanted and I suppose still want. I can tell you that I knew sweet fark all about anything with my 200 hrs of academy training. Thats just me..oh and all the other course members....mmm...?
The command time has been great for my confidence, airmanship and general flying skills.
Good luck to all. Mr. Hat.
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Each to their own!
You're either suitable for the job or not, independant of your stereotyped background...
"Hours", "The Hard Yards", and "GA" are all valuable things that contribute to experience. But "experience" itself is too often brandied about to describe some unique unqualified talent everyone out in the bush magically aquires. The fact is, experience comes from a variety of sources, and is influenced by what you make of it. Experience is NOT the same as 'background'. You could have done all the stereotypical GA adventures and still be a 'liability' on the dark and stormy night in a jet... RAAF pilots can make wrong decisions too!
Why is it in Qantas now everyone is either ex-Ansett, ex-GA, ex-cadet, or ex-RAAF. When will we stop judging each other on our backgrounds and stereotypes, and rather on what individual capability is actually demonstrated?!?
Lancer
You're either suitable for the job or not, independant of your stereotyped background...
"Hours", "The Hard Yards", and "GA" are all valuable things that contribute to experience. But "experience" itself is too often brandied about to describe some unique unqualified talent everyone out in the bush magically aquires. The fact is, experience comes from a variety of sources, and is influenced by what you make of it. Experience is NOT the same as 'background'. You could have done all the stereotypical GA adventures and still be a 'liability' on the dark and stormy night in a jet... RAAF pilots can make wrong decisions too!
Why is it in Qantas now everyone is either ex-Ansett, ex-GA, ex-cadet, or ex-RAAF. When will we stop judging each other on our backgrounds and stereotypes, and rather on what individual capability is actually demonstrated?!?
Lancer
Nunc est bibendum
I should hand in my wings and ID. Despite my six and a bit years as an F/O on the 767 I can't gain any experience because I haven't 'done' GA and therefore are incapable of learning or ever being suitable for command. Once you're in QF, you can't get any more experience.
Good grief, do you blokes honestly believe your own rhetoric? Heads up folks, AO has a Captain from the early '90s cadetships. We have former cadets driving B744s, B747s, A330s, B767s, B737s as both Captains and F/Os- some of them didn't have more than 20 hours multi command before checking out in command with QF!
Heaven forbid but I've flown with former cadets so there have been TWO cadets on the bridge. (Careful now, the sky may fall!) Once I flew with a Level IV graduate from about '89 and a cadet from about '98 so there were THREE of us doing the driving. Batten down the hatches, the sky really is falling.
I passed the check to line, I continue to pass my sim sessions (one of which was with a former cadet as the Senior check!). It isn't a walk in the park and there are no favours done for anyone. You either make the grade or you don't. I guess that sums it all up and will be equally applicable for those cadets who end up with Air North. They'll either make the grade or they won't!
About time we lost the chip on both shoulders and treated the bloke in the other seat as a crew member rather then what they may or may not have been in a previous life.
Good grief, do you blokes honestly believe your own rhetoric? Heads up folks, AO has a Captain from the early '90s cadetships. We have former cadets driving B744s, B747s, A330s, B767s, B737s as both Captains and F/Os- some of them didn't have more than 20 hours multi command before checking out in command with QF!
Heaven forbid but I've flown with former cadets so there have been TWO cadets on the bridge. (Careful now, the sky may fall!) Once I flew with a Level IV graduate from about '89 and a cadet from about '98 so there were THREE of us doing the driving. Batten down the hatches, the sky really is falling.I passed the check to line, I continue to pass my sim sessions (one of which was with a former cadet as the Senior check!). It isn't a walk in the park and there are no favours done for anyone. You either make the grade or you don't. I guess that sums it all up and will be equally applicable for those cadets who end up with Air North. They'll either make the grade or they won't!
About time we lost the chip on both shoulders and treated the bloke in the other seat as a crew member rather then what they may or may not have been in a previous life.
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Mr Hat has expressed exactly what my thaughts are.
The major diff between cadets and GA when it comes to recruitment is that one has already proved his desire for the job and the other has proved his desire to pay for the job.
That said, I feel that once within the airline environment skills honed during GA tend to diminish in importance and flight deck management takes on a more important role.
Whilst basic flying skills are similar for the big jets and the little props (ie pull, push, left, right) the similarity stops there. As has been mentioned previously 98% of flying is done on auto pilot and contrloing the aircrafts flight path depends more on knowledge rather than experience. This knowledge can be learnt from GA or picked up on line. The major factor is the cadet's willingness to learn and experience with the correct attitude and not one that suggests that all the hard work has been done (or paid for) and once in the seat they can "cruise" through the rest of thier carreer.
There is nothing worse than sitting next to a guy who believes that they know most of what there is to know, regardless of whether they are a cadet or otherwise. Arrogance has no place in aviation, niether does "attitude"
Most of us who fought hard and sacrificed much could truthfully say that given the oportunity we wouldn't have jumped at the chance of being a cadet and take the easier path to the elusive airline job.
As far as Qantas is concerned they are looking to employ people who are to be future captains and the most experienced GA pilot might be very capable of shooting an NDB approach and landing in an area riddled with termite mounds or livestock. The unfortunate truth is that those skills aren't really required in the airline buisiness as there are S.O.P's that apply to most facets of the operation. What they really want is keen, capable an personable team players who have a modicom of intelligence and show sound judgement. Good people and aircraft managers.
Having said all this I to can remember thinking when I was in GA (and being more than a little p-ssed-off) that cadets were superfluous, as there was plenty of proven pilots around. However provided the individual is willing to learn and shows the correct attitude it does not matter where they come from. Qantas is mindful of experience levels and is taking steps to increase exposure to the “real-world” prior to becoming ensconced in the relatively insulated environment of airline operations for perhaps the next forty years.
“The most experienced worker does not necessarily make the most capable leader.”
The major diff between cadets and GA when it comes to recruitment is that one has already proved his desire for the job and the other has proved his desire to pay for the job.
That said, I feel that once within the airline environment skills honed during GA tend to diminish in importance and flight deck management takes on a more important role.
Whilst basic flying skills are similar for the big jets and the little props (ie pull, push, left, right) the similarity stops there. As has been mentioned previously 98% of flying is done on auto pilot and contrloing the aircrafts flight path depends more on knowledge rather than experience. This knowledge can be learnt from GA or picked up on line. The major factor is the cadet's willingness to learn and experience with the correct attitude and not one that suggests that all the hard work has been done (or paid for) and once in the seat they can "cruise" through the rest of thier carreer.
There is nothing worse than sitting next to a guy who believes that they know most of what there is to know, regardless of whether they are a cadet or otherwise. Arrogance has no place in aviation, niether does "attitude"
Most of us who fought hard and sacrificed much could truthfully say that given the oportunity we wouldn't have jumped at the chance of being a cadet and take the easier path to the elusive airline job.
As far as Qantas is concerned they are looking to employ people who are to be future captains and the most experienced GA pilot might be very capable of shooting an NDB approach and landing in an area riddled with termite mounds or livestock. The unfortunate truth is that those skills aren't really required in the airline buisiness as there are S.O.P's that apply to most facets of the operation. What they really want is keen, capable an personable team players who have a modicom of intelligence and show sound judgement. Good people and aircraft managers.
Having said all this I to can remember thinking when I was in GA (and being more than a little p-ssed-off) that cadets were superfluous, as there was plenty of proven pilots around. However provided the individual is willing to learn and shows the correct attitude it does not matter where they come from. Qantas is mindful of experience levels and is taking steps to increase exposure to the “real-world” prior to becoming ensconced in the relatively insulated environment of airline operations for perhaps the next forty years.
“The most experienced worker does not necessarily make the most capable leader.”
Props are for boats!
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I would like to apologise for some of my past posts on this thread. In no way do I intend to demean any Cadet or scheme. I think they are great Ideas and I wish I had the opportunity but I missed when they revived the QF Cadet scheme I was to old for the 24 years cutoff, this was back in the Early Ninties.
Lancer your post is a good reply. I think alot of guys are singing their song a bit all be it they are entitled to, I really think they dont mean to outcast the Cadets or Training Schemes.
SQ Fugutive,
I agree with many points in your post. I agree the atitude of Knowall or showing arrogance with this is repulsive to me aswell. Eventually these knowall goons get bitten on their own arse by the thing they procrastinated about.
When I talk about experience. Im not concetrating on procedures or such as in Normal Ops etc etc. We all followthe SOPS and yes they are the be all and end all. But when a catasrophic uccorunce whatever it may be happens, and the SOP is followed with no real solution thinking outside the box from past exposure does count. Maybe I need to call it exposure and not experience what Im describing, I see that alot of Cadet Schemes are doing this now. Hence this thread the FO seat in an ANR Bras will give these guys and gals exposure.
Hey Im not that bright a pilot anyway, probabaly alot of Cadets would whip my ass. I know quite alot of Cadets Ansett and Qanats and they are great guys. Some of them even came out to GA to get that command time after being on SAABs and alike. Those guys I really respect, its a tuff world aviation theres no security anymore and one has to allways keep looking for oportunities. Too right Lancer lets NOT segrigate our origins we are all in the same boat or.... er plane you know what I mean.....................
SHEEP
Lancer your post is a good reply. I think alot of guys are singing their song a bit all be it they are entitled to, I really think they dont mean to outcast the Cadets or Training Schemes.
SQ Fugutive,
I agree with many points in your post. I agree the atitude of Knowall or showing arrogance with this is repulsive to me aswell. Eventually these knowall goons get bitten on their own arse by the thing they procrastinated about.
When I talk about experience. Im not concetrating on procedures or such as in Normal Ops etc etc. We all followthe SOPS and yes they are the be all and end all. But when a catasrophic uccorunce whatever it may be happens, and the SOP is followed with no real solution thinking outside the box from past exposure does count. Maybe I need to call it exposure and not experience what Im describing, I see that alot of Cadet Schemes are doing this now. Hence this thread the FO seat in an ANR Bras will give these guys and gals exposure.
Hey Im not that bright a pilot anyway, probabaly alot of Cadets would whip my ass. I know quite alot of Cadets Ansett and Qanats and they are great guys. Some of them even came out to GA to get that command time after being on SAABs and alike. Those guys I really respect, its a tuff world aviation theres no security anymore and one has to allways keep looking for oportunities. Too right Lancer lets NOT segrigate our origins we are all in the same boat or.... er plane you know what I mean.....................
SHEEP
Cadets.
Would I be wrong in suggesting that the antagonism towards cadets in QF really has nothing to do with their ability or experience but more to do with most of them having a relatively priviliged socio-economic background (ie the ability to have someone stump up 100K for them) ??
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Would I be wrong in suggesting that the antagonism towards cadets in QF really has nothing to do with their ability or experience but more to do with most of them having a relatively priviliged socio-economic background (ie the ability to have someone stump up 100K for them) ??
Ever heard of a bank?
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Guys,
The big question that I really think is the attitude of the people you fly with, ie your training captain these people can really make or brake a low hour hour fresh pilot, it's like a crappy junior grade 3 instructor who doesn't care about the student, but his selfish needs.
Everybody always talks about good GA expirience, BUT does it really make a cracker of difference in a well trained multi crew cadet program?
Guys take a good look at the old Ansett cadet scheme a proven product, more so than the qf scheme, because the AN people were already put in the rhs before being a s/o. Is it possible for people in Oz to do a rating on a heavy jet, and handle the speed and inertia of the plane? (cause it's been in Europe many a times)
Some thoughts.
The big question that I really think is the attitude of the people you fly with, ie your training captain these people can really make or brake a low hour hour fresh pilot, it's like a crappy junior grade 3 instructor who doesn't care about the student, but his selfish needs.
Everybody always talks about good GA expirience, BUT does it really make a cracker of difference in a well trained multi crew cadet program?
Guys take a good look at the old Ansett cadet scheme a proven product, more so than the qf scheme, because the AN people were already put in the rhs before being a s/o. Is it possible for people in Oz to do a rating on a heavy jet, and handle the speed and inertia of the plane? (cause it's been in Europe many a times)
Some thoughts.