There is one keyword not to be forgotten in this all subject. The outcome of the process is, at the of the day, 'discretionary'.

Therefore, technically speaking, it can depend on the altimeter setting of the day in Dallas ...

Before going into the advanced rocket sciences certificates, or degrees, it might be appropriate to think of more mundane details.

Me109 mentioned that he was approved. His data mentiones him as being 44 years old. Would say that that's about the limit for a successful outcome. Younger than that is likely to be better. Older than that it might be a no go. Other stuff like being married with children might cause one to be regarded as a responsible candidate. Being single could be a deal breaker.

I'd suggest contacting some lawyers to evaluate your suitability if you are serious about pursuing this option, don't only ask on forums. Pilots rarely make the best "experts," despite what they'll tell you...An advanced degree does NOT necessarily mean a degree higher than a bachelors. Experience can give substantial merit to your case and USCIS is very clear on that. Furthermore, your success at USCIS will depend on the presentation of your case, your credentials (it doesn't hurt to have any non-US degrees evaluated to US equivalency), your experience, and the case officer reviewing your petition. They have alot of discretion in their determination.

Sorry 737pilotguy , not intending to seem like correcting homework:ugh:

I would suggest that the forums are the only place that might advise to "try it yourself".
(My opinion, is to find the right lawyer ($8-10k?: we are talking about time & seniority, so it will pay back in time.)

Absolutely correct!
And we are not always good about decisions outside the cockpit.

Wrong - that is the exact definition of an Advanced Degree (see link below).
Note also about the link to the 'professions' for EB2-NIW.

Yes; Bachelors degree plus 5 years, considered equivalent (see link below).

Would appear to be mandatory for foreign degree to be formally evaluated (see link below).

They have to follow US law, and be convinced that your application 'ticks the boxes'.
Your lawyer should make sure that little is left to discretion.

Good luck everyone.

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/...rt-f-chapter-5

Unfortunately, this is not a box checking exercise and it's not as black and white as we would like it to be. Even with all the boxes checked, there's still a discretionary component based on the totality of the circumstances. There have been a substantial amount of RFE's and denials coming down in the last few months. In addition to attacking the exceptional abilities of pilots, there are also plenty of denials attacking the proposed endeavors and national importance of it.

I speculate that there is lobbying behind closed doors trying to minimize the EB2 NIW for pilots.

Good luck to all!

Hi Jose,

With the above in mind - how is the current retrogression of the EB2 going to affect things? Are those that are a month or two behind the current priority date going to wait an extra month or 2 or longer or years? What is the current time frame clients are being told from start to finish if all goes well?

All seems to becoming a very very long process even if you are not turned down by the USCIS.

Thank you

If you are a month or two from the priority date, then you are almost there. You also have to consider the consulate’s processing delays (they are all different). I’m telling my clients to plan on approximately two years from the moment they hire me.

Also, due to the retrogression, I’m not recommending premium processing.

Ya think?

I understand. Thanks.

Are you expecting the retrogression to worsen or to continue to move forward towards current as it has in the latest bulletin? I’m struggling to understand how this works as from what I read, there is more supply than demand, particularly with the new fiscal year from October? Last thing you’d want is for it to worsen after applying as this pilot shortage and requirement for foreigners won’t last very long.

I don’t have any expectations.

As long as you are approved, then it’s an exercise in having tactical patience. Any change in the pilot shortage will not have any bearing on your ability to adjust. Regardless, the pilot shortage is not going anywhere.

I’m an AA pilot and last I checked we are losing around 800-900 a year. Unless WWIII kicks off, the pilot shortage is not going anywhere anytime soon.

Hi, can you dilate upon the chances of obtaining EB2 NIW specifically with regard to establishing the fact that proposed endeavour is of national interest,

Is it not in the national interest to help in easing shortage by becoming an airline pilot in US because in my opinion this is the best an experience pilot can offer.

what can be other option ( except for test pilot) which can make ones proposed endeavour and case stronger with high probability of success.

The strongest case is that of an advanced degree to bypass the whole exceptional abilities argument.

Does it make a difference in what academic discipline the degree was earned ? An advanced degree in underwater basket weaving would suffice for an aviation applicant ?

Aviation related unfortunately.

Hi, agreed but isn’t that regarding the EB2 requirements?

The three prongs of the NIW still need to be argued, particularly how to show that one’s own endeavours (not the aviation industry as a whole) are in the national interest?

I had an RFE on this very point, despite having advanced degree and 19 years in the industry. My lawyer and I did what we could with an expanded personal plan and an expert opinion letter, now I’m waiting for the answer from USCIS.

Correct. Let us know how it goes and good luck!

By the sound of it, it's all about convincing the person reviewing the case that you are exceptional, possibly someone with little aviation knowledge. British self depreciation and subtlety does not work with Americans, and an ATPLwith 20+ years of not crashing does not make you exceptional, you literally have to tell them that you invented TCAS...

Correct. It's not the time to be humble.

Petition Denied
 

Well that's my EB2 NIW petition denied due to failing to prove my endeavors were in the national interest (prong 1) and that it is beneficial for US to waive labor certification requirement (prong 3). I initially had an RFE on those same points; I submitted a hugely expanded personal plan (which was mostly ignored by USCIS) and added a further detailed expert opinion letter arguing why I met the NIW requirements. I had a lawyer throughout the process who feels the USCIS is now being unfairly tough on pilot petitioners.

The EB2 part was accepted (with advanced degree) and NIW prong 2 (petitioner is well-positioned to advance proposed endeavor) was accepted.

I've got over 10k hours (mostly medium turbine P1), FAA and EASA ATPs, and nearly 20 years in the industry working at well-respected European airlines.

The sticking point seems to be how you can argue that your individual endeavors will have a national impact; it's no good talking about the pilot shortage and the national importance of the industry as a whole. It's about what you, personally, will do to have national impact. Simply being an airline pilot isn't enough.

Sadly, that makes sense…..I always imagined these visas were to attract experts in such things as AI and data mining, etc rather than filling a labour shortage?

I applied for EB2 NIW (self petition) and had a RFE stating that although I had easily met EB criteria, I had not proved the three prongs of the NIW, particularly how to show that one’s own endeavours (not the aviation industry as a whole) are in the national interest. Have a Masters in Economics (aviation management), captain over 19 years 14k hours all jet (Boeing/Airbus), Airbus TRI 9+ years and had a letter of recommendation from head of training Airbus (friend of mine). I considered hiring Harvey Law Group lawyer (12k cost USD) after RFE request but ultimately withdrew my application as looking at the US airlines terms and conditions, despite the recent salary raises, it's just not worth it to me to make the move, especially at 50+ years starting as a junior pilot again. If you are 30-35 years old and are willing to put up with being junior and all its drawbacks (low starting salaries, potential commuting, terrible bid lines, little vacation, demotion to F/O etc etc) go for it. It all depends on which USCIS officer received your file, so you also need some luck. Age may have been a consideration, although the Harvey laywer mentioned that she recognized the USCIS officer ID nr and he had a reputation for being difficult.

I would say it all depends on your attitude. It’s a big move to start all over again. Don’t let your ego get in the way of the opportunities right now. Almost all legacies offer an early upgrade to Captain or training positions. You will just need to get your 1000 hours 121 time. Also salaries are way higher than in Euroland. You can easily break 200K your second year and 300K year 3 if you take the early upgrade. But expect to work for that money. Good luck!

I'm currently on the equivalent of approx 180k USD working 650 hrs a year on average, but if I take into account the generous retirement allowance it's the equivalent of about 220k USD with 6 weeks of paid leave, based where I want to be and unmatched job protection (France). Without any doubt, I agree that this is on the upper scale of what you can take home working for any European airline and it may well be worthwhile moving if you work for an airline in Europe with a pay towards the lower range.

Having said that, considering that it would take 18+ months to get the greencard and a job, at age 50+ one may never even become a captain again. As far as I'm concerned, it's too big a gamble, considering potential economic downturns or other events. If I were 30+ working for another airline I'd probably make the jump though.

I totally understand that. Having to wait another 18 months at age 50+ doesn’t place you exactly at the front end of the hiring curve. You would still be able to upgrade early ( after you have flown 1000 hours in the right seat). But you most likely won’t have the seniority progression that someone has who got hired maybe 2-3 years ago. Coming here to the US would give you maybe options you wouldn’t have if you stayed in France. Be it flying wide bodies or having way more time off with more/similar money than flying in Europe. I also did the move in my 50’s and don’t regret leaving my very good job in Europe with 20 years of seniority. With the right attitude one can manage to fly from the right seat even after being so many years a Captain. 😃

More time off? Could you eloborate please as I thought vacation days will be much less the first few years whilst part time is not an option I think with the US majors? As seniority will be low, the first few years I'd probably be on reserve and then getting productive bid lines with max days off will be near impossible?

Hi,

I just wonder how bad could "bid lines" be and how little the annual vacations days are?

I work at a major airline in Europe. I work almost 900 hours a year (that's the legal limit) and 1000 hours for the last 12 months. I frequently fly to airports with special crew training requirements. (I'm not complaining, it is fun to fly to those destinations). Most of the time I fly with first officers with minimum hours. Like 300 total flying time. (200 hours from the flight school, 100 hours from Lifus training) With deadhead flights included I fly 90-100 hours monthly. For instance this August I have 105 hours scheduled. Having said that, I make 10-11K dollars monthly. I have 25 days paid leave total. 16 days in winter period, 9 days in summer period. I can't even get it as a 25 day block. I have many night flights starting in the late evening until the late morning. I can't bid on any destinations and the layovers are like 12-16 hours at most. Roster changes are frequent and when you complain about a roster change you get a standard message saying "Due to operational reasons". I do not exaggerate a bit.

Even so, I am happy because I love flying and I respect my job. I try to do it as good as I can.

I am seriously considering applying for the EB2 Visa. My question is, people are complaining about being a junior captain in the US and terrible bid lines whatsoever. How bad could it be comparing my current flying schedule? If I were to work there and ended up with less favorable flights after others have bid for the desirable ones, would it really suck for me?

Thanks a lot. Happy contrails.

Yes, that’s true about the vacation days. Usually first year one week and second year two weeks. But you can manipulate your schedule much better than you will ever be able to do it at an European carrier. It’s easier to drop/swap trips. That’s of course not possible being on reserve. But time to a line is not too long these days. Maybe just a couple of months on the narrow bodies. You can also go to the widebodies and if you live in base being on reserve is not a bad deal. I know several people who fly maybe 1 or 2 trips a month. You will be on short/long call the other days, but if you live in base you will have lots of time off. On the other hand- if you upgrade early, you will be years on reserve and fly the stuff nobody wants to fly. That’s why most people prefer to stay in the right seat and have better quality of life, more days off and make similar money through strategic bidding. That said, you have lots of choices here.

I would say come on over. You probably won’t have anything close to what you describe in your schedule here. So even if you upgrade to Captain after you have your 1000 hours in the right seat it will feel like vacation for you. For better Qol you can also stay in the right seat and will still make more money than you’re getting now. I know a lot of people who fly 3/400 hours a year. As a junior Captain you might fly close to 800 though. But you get paid much better then.

Which country?

Avoid The EB2-NIW Lawyers
 

After attempting the EB2-NIW I feel I need to warn everyone out there.

The blood sucking lawyers out there saw an opportunity to cash in and boy-oh-boy did they ! This visa category is not really applicable to pilots, if you are “just” a line pilot, maybe if you wrote a new training manual or developed a new training system or something else exceptional you might qualify. I have 20+ year experience, Captain wideboby.

Even after meeting the criteria for the exceptional ability part, there is almost no way of meeting the National Importance or Beneficial to the US to waive a job offer Dhanasar prongs. Just citing a pilot shortage is not enough, as many (including the USCIS) believe there isn’t one.

In my case, and many other colleagues I have spoken to, the reply from the USCIS was that just being a pilot going to fly for 1 airline is not of national importance or beneficial to the US, which makes sense, 1 pilot is not going to make any difference in the great scheme of things.

Some pilots did get their applications approved, I personally know a few, but I know many many more who didn’t. Maybe the case officer had a great day, who knows. In short it is a very subjective process, it all depends on the case officer, you have the same chance of success applying for the Diversity Visa Lottery.

If you are going to attempt the application at least do yourself a favour and go with a “cheap” lawyer, there’s a company out there charging $5000 up front, and only if you’re petition is successful will you pay the remaining amount. The firm I went with ( which I will regret to my dying day ) charged upwards of $12000 up front and the service I received was terrible and after almost 5 months the petition they filed was no better than the $5000 law firm, in fact I could have downloaded a template and done a better job over a weekend. AG

Don’t believe any lawyer, they will tell you anything to get your retainer, always with the caveat (softly whispered) that they off course cannot guarantee success. A year or 2 ago there might have been a better chance of success, but as previously mentioned in this forum, the door seems to be closing rapidly.

I didn’t do enough research, fell for the lawyers sales pitch and lost a ridiculous amount of money.. In the immortal words of Forest Gump : Stupid is as stupid does.

PunchesPilot7:

A few questions for you.

1. Do you have a FAA ATPL Certificate?
2. Do you have any sort of FAA pilot training done to add to your qualifications?

I find it hard that you got denied for the EB2-NIW with your experience as you have stated. However it also boils down on how you frame your argument witht USCIS and how you position yourself towards the need of the United States as part of a national interest solution.

I have a fraction of your total time with a non aviation related degree and I was approved last year. You can say I was one of the few who got lucky but it seems to me it really is how the packet was composed and what kind of evidence you provided with your case.

If you are really intent on working in the US, there is always the diversity visa or gamble another $700 to write another packet.

keep the blue side up.

FourStripes

European pilot's enviroment
 

You are lucky not to have worked for any European operator!
I don't blame European pilots too much but I recognize they share part of the blame. The biggest goes to the industry...they started everything....it is a mafia racing to the bottom regarding pilot's T&C's, EASA accepts their power and goes along.
All over he world the travel industry have increased their margins and their profits since COVID live never seen before, nevertheless with the exception of the US and in part the ME crew T&C's have remained the same.
The biggest problem for the aviation industry in Europe would be if the US would qualify in congress the pilot job as "Exceptional Abilities' opening the door to pilots being able to apply to jobs in the US and the employers knowing that an European Pilots would be able to start next week. This will not happen for several reasons but from the European point of view this would disrupt completely the rigged aviation market in Europe for pilots.

Hi everyone,

Great thread, very informative.

I'm UK based Captain at Gatwick with EasyJet, 4000hrs , 500 PIC, 8 years in the company, batchelors degree. 40 years old.
Although Easyjet has been a good starting block for my career I don't feel that the next 25 years of my working life with be low cost around Europe with their grueling summer schedule, I know I'll be moving, but the question is where...
As Emirates isn't an option for me (Dog's on banned breed list), and China money is attractive but doesn't offer an attractive life style for the family, the USA stands out above the rest. I've heard of many FO's and Captains jumping to the US but obviously the process is quite time consuming and potencially very expensive. I guess I just have 1 big question and would like some clarification/confirmation on the process before I start this ball rolling if I may....

1. Am I able to hold both an ICAO and FAA licence at the same time, as I would need to continue working in the UK as normal as this 'conversion' is in process.

Whats the best order to start this process;
Apply for a FAA licence
Obtain a FAA inital medical (this can be done in the UK)
Complete the ATL exam (one big exam, multiple choice)
Complete the check ride/sim check
Obtain the green card/visa

Then I'm able to start applying for FO positions with airlines...


I know that some have hired 'brokers' or laywers to complete some of this, but could I get company names or links to there services please...

Thanks for your time and effort in replying.

Best to secure the FAA ATP Certicate and move on from there. It does not matter if you do it on a multiengine. But if you have the money you can shop around and do the sim with your type rating on the ATP.

Then start writing your EB2 NIW packet. or find a sponsor like Atlas Air. Either way, the ATP certificate is the foundation of your journey.

keep the blue side up.

4S

Thanks for the reply,

So Licence, ATP exam and check ride....

pw101,

In order to take the FAA ATPL written exam, you need to complete an ATP-CTP course like the example linked below. And yes, it's an expensive slap in the face for a person of your experience but there's no way around it.

You can get the ATP and type rating in one checkride. You'd want to select the type you currently fly. The KMIA area is a hotbed of organizations doing such training. Good luck, you've got your work cut out for you.

https://atpflightschool.com/atp/ctp/

PW101, Sent you a pm.

You can not get the type rating in one check ride. If you want to have the typerating on your FAA ATP you have to do a type rating course in the US. You can however do a shortened one if you have experience already.

Atlas Air doesn't sponsor you to obtain a visa. It is very hard anyway to find an airline who's willing to sponsor you. They all require you to have the right to work and live in the US before they hire you. And how you get it, that is up to you.
Also, you do not require an ATP to be successful in the EB2NIW. So it's up to you if you want to spend money on it before hand or just wait wether you get approved or not. One of the requirements of the EB2 is to have a license, but it doesn't say it has to be an American license.

[QUOTE=wing-man;11494952]You can not get the type rating in one check ride. [QUOTE]

wing-man,

Not sure what you mean. I know someone who got their initial FAA ATP and a type rating which were issued on the basis of one check ride. Of course, they had to take an abbreviated course (they had flown the type overseas) at a training organization prior to the check ride.

I didn't mean to say a person can walk in off the street, jump in a sim and get the ATP and type rating in one session at the training organization with no prior sim sessions. A person must be recommended for the check ride and no training organization will do that without seeing how the applicant performs.

I didn't explain myself very well. I meant that the check ride for the ATP and the type rating don't have to be two separate events.

In line with recent posts, they don't want foreign Airline Pilots there. The Case Was Denied.

FAA ATP, CFI, CFI-I
Bachelor's Degree from a U.S. University (Aviation major)
10 years+ aviation work experience
5000h+ TT
Previously FAA Part 135 FO
U.S. 501(c)(3) Nonprofit flying
A320 FO in a European flag carrier
Besides U.S. instructor experience, Line Training Captain in Europe on a turboprop, among other positions in aviation
Conditional Job Offer from a East Coast Part 135 company (DEC + instructor position)
5 Reference Letters, and Expert Opinion Letter by a U.S. University Professor
Helped save lives of American SOF in Afghanistan (also other deployments)

Yet they hand out visas to interpreters and Afghans who don't know how to read or speak English, as they hand out to a Russian Crossfit (brand, not a pro sport) athlete who can't speak English and his family.

And the Immigration Lawyer offices keep advertising that regular Airline Pilots who have 10+ years work experience can qualify for the EB-2 NIW.

As 1st Sgt Edward Welsh stated in The Thin Red Line, "They want you dead, or in their lie.", more fittingly: "They want your money, and in their lie."