US Legacy Age 65 Retirements
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UK, get your instructor ratings. Tons of places hiring and you can get the flight time you need quickly. Also don't count on not having a degree. I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I'll put it like this: I have a friend who had 14 internal letters of rec at United, went to 3 job fairs, and about 5,000 hours. A few weeks after he got his degree he got the email for the psych test.
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So what should a first officer do to get a job in a US major who has 3,000 hours on 737 and 2,000 hours on 777, when he doesn't have neither a US citizenship nor a greencard. I will not believe this pilot shortagee thing 100% until they start handing out greencards to the available candidates.
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ruletheworld,
The majors won't ever be handing out greencards. They each have about 13,000 resumes on file, and its extremely competitive to get an interview. The number of pilots being hired without a 4 year degree is extremely low. Ive heard of one in the past couple of years.
I know of some without a degree who have gone to Atlas, but in order to get on at United, Delta, American, Southwest, or Fedex it would be foolhardy not to get one.
FOs are also only making up about 10% of new hire classes and usually have other things on their resume to overcome the lack of PIC time. (union work, volunteering, extensive networking, etc.)
Not trying to be discouraging, just presenting the reality. Regionals are a different story however.
The majors won't ever be handing out greencards. They each have about 13,000 resumes on file, and its extremely competitive to get an interview. The number of pilots being hired without a 4 year degree is extremely low. Ive heard of one in the past couple of years.
I know of some without a degree who have gone to Atlas, but in order to get on at United, Delta, American, Southwest, or Fedex it would be foolhardy not to get one.
FOs are also only making up about 10% of new hire classes and usually have other things on their resume to overcome the lack of PIC time. (union work, volunteering, extensive networking, etc.)
Not trying to be discouraging, just presenting the reality. Regionals are a different story however.
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I do carry a 4 year degree, which in my case is Software Engineering degree.
I can speak both english and german. I have lots of voluntary work on my resume.
Only 2 things missing are the grencard and the PIC time.
There is nothing else missing, but of course that is my personal opinion. Maybe they are looking for some additional attributes.
After i get my upgrade i will hav the PIC time, too. Then it will only be greencard missing, will i be eligible?
I can speak both english and german. I have lots of voluntary work on my resume.
Only 2 things missing are the grencard and the PIC time.
There is nothing else missing, but of course that is my personal opinion. Maybe they are looking for some additional attributes.
After i get my upgrade i will hav the PIC time, too. Then it will only be greencard missing, will i be eligible?
Thread Starter
boofhead,
Just been mulling over your comment in post #26:
"I can assure you that the lack of qualified pilots has a very real and deleterious effect on the smaller Part 121 and many Part 135 operations already, with few if any youngsters coming up to take their place."
I'm just not entirely convinced that "...few if any youngsters coming up..." is correct.
I fished around for some data addressing that issue and found FAA stats in a bird's-eye-view document produced by University of North Dakota (for our overseas folks, UND is a well known university flight program here) There are several graphs ranging from student pilot certificates issued through ATPs issued...FAA data.
[sorry the UND report containing the data is a pdf...couldn't figure out how to give a direct link to the report...links provided below]
While the data mostly goes only through 2014, CPLs issued began a marked upswing in the 2013-2014 range.
The bar graph of people taking the CPL written shows that while there are many foreign people taking it, that number is exceeded by US citizens taking it. This would be a reasonable indication of US citizens intending to pursue flying on a serious basis.
While there are certainly large numbers of foreign nationals here for training, I doubt they make up the numerical majority of people in the OVERALL US training pipeline. I've heard the number tossed around of 95% of flight school students being foreign nationals; I seriously doubt that but can't get the specific data. There may be some training entities specializing in training non-US folks where 95% may be true, but overall ? Seriously doubt that...especially in the numerous university programs where the flight training spread over years of the quarter/semester academic system wouldn't fit the needs of foreign carriers, allegedly in need of pilots, sending people here for training to satisfy a pressing need at home; the dedicated commercial FTOs would fit the demand much better.
And...the number of CFIs issued began a nearly vertical upturn in 2013/2014. It's safe to say that those folks are serious about flying professionally.
And speaking of CFIs...there has been a distinct uptick in the number of CFI job postings online. I suppose one could surmise this is due to CFIs moving up to whatever they feel is the next rung of the professional ladder of career advancement. If few people were entering the training pipeline, why would these vacancies need to be filled ? Or maybe more CFIs are needed just because even MORE people are signing up to learn to fly ? I really can't say that solely from the data but it's a good question.
Now, in the 2013/partial-2014 range, the number of ATPs issued dropped but this was following the FAR change related to taking the ATP written...an onerous, expensive hurdle to jump just to be allowed to even take it. It's understandable there'd be a drop. But, since then, the regional carriers have had to move that training program for the written in-house to get people onboard and comply with the FAR changes to ATPs for F/Os. I'd like to see what happened in late 2014 through today. I'm going to guess the curve stopped it's downward trend.
So, after all that word salad, I say there are plenty of people entering the system. The profession has taken a serious image hit in the media; research is needed to see if the sky-is-falling atmosphere is correct. I suppose only time will tell for sure.
Here are the links. If the "Track1 Report..." link won't take you directly to the report, go to the aabi.aero link and select the "Track 1 Report" option.
Aviation Accreditation Board International
Track 1 Report - Flight Operations and FOQ Update
Track 1 Report - Flight Operations and FOQ Update
Just been mulling over your comment in post #26:
"I can assure you that the lack of qualified pilots has a very real and deleterious effect on the smaller Part 121 and many Part 135 operations already, with few if any youngsters coming up to take their place."
I'm just not entirely convinced that "...few if any youngsters coming up..." is correct.
I fished around for some data addressing that issue and found FAA stats in a bird's-eye-view document produced by University of North Dakota (for our overseas folks, UND is a well known university flight program here) There are several graphs ranging from student pilot certificates issued through ATPs issued...FAA data.
[sorry the UND report containing the data is a pdf...couldn't figure out how to give a direct link to the report...links provided below]
While the data mostly goes only through 2014, CPLs issued began a marked upswing in the 2013-2014 range.
The bar graph of people taking the CPL written shows that while there are many foreign people taking it, that number is exceeded by US citizens taking it. This would be a reasonable indication of US citizens intending to pursue flying on a serious basis.
While there are certainly large numbers of foreign nationals here for training, I doubt they make up the numerical majority of people in the OVERALL US training pipeline. I've heard the number tossed around of 95% of flight school students being foreign nationals; I seriously doubt that but can't get the specific data. There may be some training entities specializing in training non-US folks where 95% may be true, but overall ? Seriously doubt that...especially in the numerous university programs where the flight training spread over years of the quarter/semester academic system wouldn't fit the needs of foreign carriers, allegedly in need of pilots, sending people here for training to satisfy a pressing need at home; the dedicated commercial FTOs would fit the demand much better.
And...the number of CFIs issued began a nearly vertical upturn in 2013/2014. It's safe to say that those folks are serious about flying professionally.
And speaking of CFIs...there has been a distinct uptick in the number of CFI job postings online. I suppose one could surmise this is due to CFIs moving up to whatever they feel is the next rung of the professional ladder of career advancement. If few people were entering the training pipeline, why would these vacancies need to be filled ? Or maybe more CFIs are needed just because even MORE people are signing up to learn to fly ? I really can't say that solely from the data but it's a good question.
Now, in the 2013/partial-2014 range, the number of ATPs issued dropped but this was following the FAR change related to taking the ATP written...an onerous, expensive hurdle to jump just to be allowed to even take it. It's understandable there'd be a drop. But, since then, the regional carriers have had to move that training program for the written in-house to get people onboard and comply with the FAR changes to ATPs for F/Os. I'd like to see what happened in late 2014 through today. I'm going to guess the curve stopped it's downward trend.
So, after all that word salad, I say there are plenty of people entering the system. The profession has taken a serious image hit in the media; research is needed to see if the sky-is-falling atmosphere is correct. I suppose only time will tell for sure.
Here are the links. If the "Track1 Report..." link won't take you directly to the report, go to the aabi.aero link and select the "Track 1 Report" option.
Aviation Accreditation Board International
Track 1 Report - Flight Operations and FOQ Update
Track 1 Report - Flight Operations and FOQ Update
Last edited by bafanguy; 15th Mar 2016 at 22:52.
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I hate to say never but I'll say it here. You'll never get a pilot job in the U.S. without at least a Green Card.There are just too many out-of-work/underpaid pilots available.
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Yes I need Alaska experience but more importantly I need 4000 hours flight time and a large amount of PIC time in multi engine airplanes. It is a tough world out there. I am competing with the majors and freight carriers and they offer jet time and a career, as well as way more money than I can ever hope to pay. In the olden times those carriers would have their choice of youngsters with 500 hours or so, but now they, like me, will take whatever is on offer.
I used to get more than enough to have a decent choice but no longer. One of my best pilot pools is those who have retired at 65, can you believe it?
I used to get more than enough to have a decent choice but no longer. One of my best pilot pools is those who have retired at 65, can you believe it?
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Actually, I can believe it, especially if you require experience in Alaska. This is exactly the reason the U.S. needs to either push mandatory retirement to 67-70 or eliminate it all together.
If you can pass a 1st class medical why can you not operate a crew served aircraft? ALL the medical incapacitations in the U.S. have occurred to pilots UNDER the age of 60.
If you can pass a 1st class medical why can you not operate a crew served aircraft? ALL the medical incapacitations in the U.S. have occurred to pilots UNDER the age of 60.
Thread Starter
CSU_ Ram,
Changing the mandatory retirement age...or even proposing there shouldn't even be one is opening a real can o'worms here in the USA. Standby for heated incoming. :-)
I don't see raising the age as any practical solution to anything because we don't know how many 65+ y/o pilots could hold a Class 1 medical...or an intensified, modified version of it because of the increased age...or would even want to run that gauntlet. And physical standards are only part of the equation and may not be the more important part which would be MUCH harder to test and quantify.
The resulting numbers might be too small to help offset the alleged "shortage" and therefore just not worth the effort.
And... at some point, a person just might like to sit on the porch and watch you young hard chargers flail wildly in the roiling scrum. It took me a while but that's now what I prefer to being stuffed in the pointy end even under the best possible conditions (and they were the BEST possible circumstances). But, it took me a while.
Changing the mandatory retirement age...or even proposing there shouldn't even be one is opening a real can o'worms here in the USA. Standby for heated incoming. :-)
I don't see raising the age as any practical solution to anything because we don't know how many 65+ y/o pilots could hold a Class 1 medical...or an intensified, modified version of it because of the increased age...or would even want to run that gauntlet. And physical standards are only part of the equation and may not be the more important part which would be MUCH harder to test and quantify.
The resulting numbers might be too small to help offset the alleged "shortage" and therefore just not worth the effort.
And... at some point, a person just might like to sit on the porch and watch you young hard chargers flail wildly in the roiling scrum. It took me a while but that's now what I prefer to being stuffed in the pointy end even under the best possible conditions (and they were the BEST possible circumstances). But, it took me a while.
Last edited by bafanguy; 22nd Mar 2016 at 21:47. Reason: Add wisdom...
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To each his own. I just remember one guy who I flew with in the olden days. He'd strap on 50 lbs of rocks and climb mountains. He'd kayak the Inside Passage in Alaska. When he was forced to retire at Age 60 he was probably in better shape than the new hires coming on the property.
The only difference between the Part 121 pilots and the Part 135 pilots is REGULATION. While our passengers are buying individual seats, their passengers are chartering the entire airplane. So what's the difference between us and the 75 year old Gulfstream pilots passing my jet on the CEPAC routes every day.
None that I can see. Passing a 1st class physical should be the ONLY limitation on a pilot's career.
The only difference between the Part 121 pilots and the Part 135 pilots is REGULATION. While our passengers are buying individual seats, their passengers are chartering the entire airplane. So what's the difference between us and the 75 year old Gulfstream pilots passing my jet on the CEPAC routes every day.
None that I can see. Passing a 1st class physical should be the ONLY limitation on a pilot's career.
Thread Starter
CSU_ram,
The issue isn't "To each his own." There's no answer there.
The issue isn't the occasional guy who can "...strap on 50 lbs of rocks and climb mountains." Or the "...the 75 year old Gulfstream pilots passing my jet...". Statistically insignificant data.
The issue is replacing thousands of Part 121 pilots hitting the end of their careers...whatever the max age or the lack thereof. Eliminating the max age isn't the answer...won't solve the problem...won't produce thousands of Part 121 pilots which is the subject of this thread. It's a numbers game and adding small numbers of 65+ y/o people who can jump the hurdles for another couple of years won't win that game.
But, sure go ahead and eliminate the max age. Give it a go. I actually don't care but would vote for your plan if given the chance just to see how it played out.
I'm 69 years old...did my 35 years in Part 121. And wish you young folks all the best.
The issue isn't "To each his own." There's no answer there.
The issue isn't the occasional guy who can "...strap on 50 lbs of rocks and climb mountains." Or the "...the 75 year old Gulfstream pilots passing my jet...". Statistically insignificant data.
The issue is replacing thousands of Part 121 pilots hitting the end of their careers...whatever the max age or the lack thereof. Eliminating the max age isn't the answer...won't solve the problem...won't produce thousands of Part 121 pilots which is the subject of this thread. It's a numbers game and adding small numbers of 65+ y/o people who can jump the hurdles for another couple of years won't win that game.
But, sure go ahead and eliminate the max age. Give it a go. I actually don't care but would vote for your plan if given the chance just to see how it played out.
I'm 69 years old...did my 35 years in Part 121. And wish you young folks all the best.
Last edited by bafanguy; 22nd Mar 2016 at 23:06.
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To each his own. I just remember one guy who I flew with in the olden days. He'd strap on 50 lbs of rocks and climb mountains. He'd kayak the Inside Passage in Alaska. When he was forced to retire at Age 60 he was probably in better shape than the new hires coming on the property.
The only difference between the Part 121 pilots and the Part 135 pilots is REGULATION. While our passengers are buying individual seats, their passengers are chartering the entire airplane. So what's the difference between us and the 75 year old Gulfstream pilots passing my jet on the CEPAC routes every day.
None that I can see. Passing a 1st class physical should be the ONLY limitation on a pilot's career.
The only difference between the Part 121 pilots and the Part 135 pilots is REGULATION. While our passengers are buying individual seats, their passengers are chartering the entire airplane. So what's the difference between us and the 75 year old Gulfstream pilots passing my jet on the CEPAC routes every day.
None that I can see. Passing a 1st class physical should be the ONLY limitation on a pilot's career.
Add to that, that may pensions and other retirement schemes are designed around retirement at age 65-67. One of my co-workers just went thru this. He's a flight engineer, so not subject to mandatory retirement, but he retired, not because he wanted to retire, but he had reached a point where staying employed longer was actually causing him to lose retirement. benefits.
Additionally I think that you'd also have some pretty strenuous push-back from a number of groups on a move like this.
But, this is all based on the false premise that there's a pilot shortage. There isn't. If you asked a hundred pilots what their top three airlines to retire from, if they could choose, and you visited the recruiting departments of those airlines, I'm pretty sure you'd find that those airlines aren't having any difficulty at all getting more applicants than they have positions, by a wide margin. The airlines crying "pilot shortage!!!" are the ones who are not offering a competitive package of compensation and schedule.
Thread Starter
AxA,
Well said. And there are places where people can fly as long as willing or able: Parts 91, 91K, 135 and 125 (not sure how many of those are around these days). And some of those operators might be glad to get the old guys.
Well said. And there are places where people can fly as long as willing or able: Parts 91, 91K, 135 and 125 (not sure how many of those are around these days). And some of those operators might be glad to get the old guys.
Thread Starter
Just a bit of reliable data on Southwest Airlines age-65 retirements, short term. Not very many...compared:
'16 123
'17 156
'18 116
'19 139
'20 166
'21 221
total 921
'16 123
'17 156
'18 116
'19 139
'20 166
'21 221
total 921
Thread Starter
"When I ride on a crew bus full of United/Delta/AA pilots, I feel like I'm at an AARP convention. "
Zonda,
Well, that's cuz you ARE at an AARP convention !!! It should make you absolutely leap for joy !! :-)))
In those same years, DL, for example, has three times(+) as many scheduled age-outs. The airlines are of different sizes but empty seats are empty seats...assuming they intend to refill them.
An interesting twist is reflected in the actual retirements at DL in 2015: total 335 left...153@age 65...182 less than 65. The long term issue remains the same but that just moves things a little more into the present.
Zonda,
Well, that's cuz you ARE at an AARP convention !!! It should make you absolutely leap for joy !! :-)))
In those same years, DL, for example, has three times(+) as many scheduled age-outs. The airlines are of different sizes but empty seats are empty seats...assuming they intend to refill them.
An interesting twist is reflected in the actual retirements at DL in 2015: total 335 left...153@age 65...182 less than 65. The long term issue remains the same but that just moves things a little more into the present.
Last edited by bafanguy; 27th Apr 2016 at 17:16. Reason: Add Stuff...
Thread Starter
misd-,
It's only a guess but I'd say that the early-outs at DL are likely former NW people. They have their original DB retirement plan in effect...the widgetheads don't. That might influence a person's "attitude".
The AA people have the 100% lump sum option, IIRC. Sure wish I'd had that...we tried many years ago but couldn't get it. Oh well...
It's only a guess but I'd say that the early-outs at DL are likely former NW people. They have their original DB retirement plan in effect...the widgetheads don't. That might influence a person's "attitude".
The AA people have the 100% lump sum option, IIRC. Sure wish I'd had that...we tried many years ago but couldn't get it. Oh well...
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AA lump sum disappeared in BK. AA's benefit was 'frozen'. You will receive what you were entitled to at that date based on your current age when you retire. PBGC PC3 vs. PC4(PC??) classification, etc.