USA Pilot Shortage
The Bumblebee
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One aspect of this thread was talking about allowing foreign flight instructors work permits in the US. There's nothing complicated or special about setting up a flight school. Maybe governmental regulations in the home countries make it extra hard, but that's a local issue. If the need is so great in these countries, why don't their governments keep the training money in their own country and encourage flight schools to open up there.
Getting light airplanes and maintaining them isn't hard. Setting up a classroom and syllabus isn't expensive or difficult. For primary training, you don't need expensive or difficult-to-maintain simulators.
It seems to me that an Indian or Malaysian, or even Aussie company could set up a great flight school with not much investment and make a good profit by attracting south Asian students and teach in their native language, and be able to charge less than the relatively high cost of living and learning in the US.
I know a lot of Brit students like to train in Florida, but I think that's because flight training in the UK is pretty darn expensive, the weather is less likely to cause delays in training, and Florida is a plane ride away. Also with the extreme weakness of the dollar, the US is cheap for Europeans.
Getting light airplanes and maintaining them isn't hard. Setting up a classroom and syllabus isn't expensive or difficult. For primary training, you don't need expensive or difficult-to-maintain simulators.
It seems to me that an Indian or Malaysian, or even Aussie company could set up a great flight school with not much investment and make a good profit by attracting south Asian students and teach in their native language, and be able to charge less than the relatively high cost of living and learning in the US.
I know a lot of Brit students like to train in Florida, but I think that's because flight training in the UK is pretty darn expensive, the weather is less likely to cause delays in training, and Florida is a plane ride away. Also with the extreme weakness of the dollar, the US is cheap for Europeans.
Since you are here on the PPRuNe I am assuming that you are a pilot. I am also assuming that you have never traveled to this side of the world.
It is not as easy as it sounds to setup a flight school here in the Eastern States. First of all, we will have to import planes (guess where most of the training aircrafts are made). Secondly, we need airfields to fly those planes. Do you know that there are more airfields in the state of FL than entire India. Now an infrastructure like this cannot be setup over night. Yes, the government is working on it but it will take years. Third, the fuel is a lot more expensive here than in State, Oz or even South Africa. Another problem that we face here is what you are facing in USA. Why would someone want to work as a FI when he/she can fly a brand new shiny aircraft (where they do not have to yell "clear prop" and chances are that they can walk under the wing and need ladder to climb in the aircraft. This kind of flying any day beats flying C152, at least for work).
Not all the students come to USA to live there and stay there. There are easier ways to come to States than trying to get an M1 visa for flight training (visa counselors still remember 9-11).
Yes, you are right, there a lot of Brits training in FL. But there are also people from India, China, Japan, Scandinavian countries and southern EU States training in FL. There is a very good reason why FL is called the flight training capital of the world.
These students when they come to States, not only they spend money in the flight school, they also spend money in local business'. We saw the impact of no flight training after 9-11. Lots of local business' were hurting because the foreigners had stopped coming to States. You think Disney can survive if only Americans were going there?
Anyway, I do miss the days when we could fly over the Hudson and work on the lady.
Happy Flying
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Yes, I fly in that area of the world.
So, India has no problem setting up new airlines, so much so that it needs to import ex-pat pilots and train its own nationals and outsourcing highly technical jobs from the US market, yet it is incapable of setting-up and running some flight schools???
I suppose my understanding of this must be as a result of some cultural bias on my part.
Don't get me wrong, if foreign students from countries that are not hostile in government or national sentiment towards us want to come here to learn, that's fine . . . as long as they go back to their home countries and not try and stay here and work.
So, India has no problem setting up new airlines, so much so that it needs to import ex-pat pilots and train its own nationals and outsourcing highly technical jobs from the US market, yet it is incapable of setting-up and running some flight schools???
I suppose my understanding of this must be as a result of some cultural bias on my part.
Don't get me wrong, if foreign students from countries that are not hostile in government or national sentiment towards us want to come here to learn, that's fine . . . as long as they go back to their home countries and not try and stay here and work.
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No shortage of pilots here.. only a shortage of qualified pilots who will work for $19/flight hour... It's sort of like legal prostitution without the pay.. The mins are dropping to below 500hrs with some carriers. This is because most people won't fly for that low of pay...
The Bumblebee
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Roadtrip,
It is not the school that is the problem. I have extensive experience in flight school business. It is infrastructure and airports in India. The students will have to go for cross countries, or practice ILS approaches for their IR training. I didnt realise how luck we were in USA until I came back to India. I fly for an airline and we still shoot full VOR approaches in non-radar environment. If you are a student pilot and practicing landings and an airliner approaches you would have to call it a day.
Most (cant say all, that is the counselers job) student pilots will come back to India. When you are only 18-20 years old and you can make $3500 per month and are treated like a king why wont you come back. I dont think they want to stay back in the states to pick oranges or work at gas stations or motels making $6 per hour. So you dont have to worry about people staying back. It is a different story if someone who wants to desperatily move to USA uses aviation to get in the States. But thats where TSA, and US embassy expertise comes in.
It is not the school that is the problem. I have extensive experience in flight school business. It is infrastructure and airports in India. The students will have to go for cross countries, or practice ILS approaches for their IR training. I didnt realise how luck we were in USA until I came back to India. I fly for an airline and we still shoot full VOR approaches in non-radar environment. If you are a student pilot and practicing landings and an airliner approaches you would have to call it a day.
Most (cant say all, that is the counselers job) student pilots will come back to India. When you are only 18-20 years old and you can make $3500 per month and are treated like a king why wont you come back. I dont think they want to stay back in the states to pick oranges or work at gas stations or motels making $6 per hour. So you dont have to worry about people staying back. It is a different story if someone who wants to desperatily move to USA uses aviation to get in the States. But thats where TSA, and US embassy expertise comes in.
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There are so many better opportunities for foreign pilots outside of the US.. I don't understand why you would want to fly here. I'm guessing to build an experience, but it's still not a great place in terms of pay for a starting pilot.
A pilot from England joined the Army Guard over here and said that he had worked as a Blackhawk Crew Chief, then went to NW Airlink as FO. I asked him about the lifestyle with a lower US CRJ First Officer salary compared to a higher salary in England with the much higher taxes. His company sent some senior pilots to Embry Riddle in a recruitment campaign. I spoke with them.
The Englishman told me that you can survive better in the US, at least in a lower cost region such as a smaller city in the south, because of the much lower taxes and cost of living. This surprised me.
CruiseClimb: How about the problem of some regional airline new-hires who have less than the minimum PIC hours, who theoretically will never be able to upgrade to Captain? The core problem, based upon what a Check Airman told me, with attracting experienced pilots is that some regionals pay nothing during training-not even per diem for meals etc. They expect the applicant to live with Mom and Dad, or have a girlfriend supply food, hotel and gasoline money. Wait until they hear about the salary, whereby you will qualify for foodstamps.
The company may hire you, but whether you have enough instrument experience to successfully finish training, makes no difference at all to the company
. They want you as cheaply as possible-nothing else. And it works every week.
A furloughed airline guy working as Instructor at a regional was introduced to me and described a common, but most unfortunate situation. He told me that the Gulfstream program gladly took a guy's money and let him later fly the B-1900. This came as a cruel surprise when he was a new-hire at another company: the lack of actual instrument flying crippled his chances to finish CRJ training.
PIC hours? Will some new-hires be forced to remain forever in the right seat?
The solution is that the FAA will soon, or has already lowered the PIC hour requirement to enable First Officers to later upgrade to Captain after 2500 hours or more. Maybe 10 SIC hours equal 1 hour of PIC?
PS: This is May 28. That company's Chief Pilot reportedly quit recently over this PIC/SIC concept.
The Englishman told me that you can survive better in the US, at least in a lower cost region such as a smaller city in the south, because of the much lower taxes and cost of living. This surprised me.
CruiseClimb: How about the problem of some regional airline new-hires who have less than the minimum PIC hours, who theoretically will never be able to upgrade to Captain? The core problem, based upon what a Check Airman told me, with attracting experienced pilots is that some regionals pay nothing during training-not even per diem for meals etc. They expect the applicant to live with Mom and Dad, or have a girlfriend supply food, hotel and gasoline money. Wait until they hear about the salary, whereby you will qualify for foodstamps.
The company may hire you, but whether you have enough instrument experience to successfully finish training, makes no difference at all to the company
. They want you as cheaply as possible-nothing else. And it works every week. A furloughed airline guy working as Instructor at a regional was introduced to me and described a common, but most unfortunate situation. He told me that the Gulfstream program gladly took a guy's money and let him later fly the B-1900. This came as a cruel surprise when he was a new-hire at another company: the lack of actual instrument flying crippled his chances to finish CRJ training.
PIC hours? Will some new-hires be forced to remain forever in the right seat?
The solution is that the FAA will soon, or has already lowered the PIC hour requirement to enable First Officers to later upgrade to Captain after 2500 hours or more. Maybe 10 SIC hours equal 1 hour of PIC?
PS: This is May 28. That company's Chief Pilot reportedly quit recently over this PIC/SIC concept.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 29th May 2007 at 00:51.
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Low timers looking to be PICs
What's happening is pilots are coming in at 500 hrs, but must sit in the right seat until they meet that company's mins for Captain. This is usually 3,000-3,500 hrs in an RJ, lower in a turboprop. Other pilots who meet the mins are upgraded past them, but have lower seniority numbers. As soon as the junior pilot has the time to upgrade, he is automatically senior to the pilot who may have been a captain years ahead of him. many of these junior pilots have never seen icing or turbulance until they're flying a jet with 50 passengers in back.
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TSA minimums
Ok it really has happend!!! Trans State Airlines announced today their new minimums 250tt/25me. So pretty much a Commercial license with an multi add on it.
http://www.pilotjobs.com/default.las...ine&airline=27
check it out.
The demand can not keep up with the supply.
http://www.pilotjobs.com/default.las...ine&airline=27
check it out.
The demand can not keep up with the supply.
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Importance of English
Thorny,
When you arrive at the airlines and are flying international routes, you will understand the absolute necessity of a common aviation language. Situational awareness, especially in the airport traffic area, is greatly reduced when the pilots are not speaking the same language. Improper communications will kill people just as fast, if not faster, than poor piloting skills.
As far as a shortage of Instructors goes. Only the largest flight schools in the US are suffering a shortage. Most pilots are not willing to move across the country for an instructing job. It just doesn't make economic sense. So when a large school taps out the local market, it is hard for them to find instructors. Instructors don't generate huge income for a flight school so it is usually not worth their while to pay immigration costs.
Good luck!
When you arrive at the airlines and are flying international routes, you will understand the absolute necessity of a common aviation language. Situational awareness, especially in the airport traffic area, is greatly reduced when the pilots are not speaking the same language. Improper communications will kill people just as fast, if not faster, than poor piloting skills.
As far as a shortage of Instructors goes. Only the largest flight schools in the US are suffering a shortage. Most pilots are not willing to move across the country for an instructing job. It just doesn't make economic sense. So when a large school taps out the local market, it is hard for them to find instructors. Instructors don't generate huge income for a flight school so it is usually not worth their while to pay immigration costs.
Good luck!
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What shortage???
The airline industry is a cyclical beast. There are plenty of pilots out there to fill the jobs available. When the major airlines were booming, the regionals weren't. Now the big guys are shrinking and the regionals are growing. The minimums go down when the demand rises and go up when it falls. When you start seeing pay going up, then you'll know there is a shortage. I can tell you this much for sure. My company hired several classes of pilots recently and every one of them had a college degree, three letters of recommendation from within the company, and 4000+ plus hours TT. They all had turbine experience and most were type rated in something, or prior military pilots. Three of them were sons or daughters of pilots working for the company. It doesn't sound like much of a shortage to me.
Cheers
I can tell you this much for sure. My company hired several classes of pilots recently and every one of them had a college degree, three letters of recommendation from within the company, and 4000+ plus hours TT. They all had turbine experience and most were type rated in something, or prior military pilots. Three of them were sons or daughters of pilots working for the company. It doesn't sound like much of a shortage to me. Cheers
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Acquiring and maintaining a light airplane overseas IS in fact expensive, but that in itself is not the big problem. The problem is that the big airline growth is mostly occurring in developing countries where only a select few can afford to learn to fly. There just aren't enough potential candidates yet to support any kind of big training operation in those countries. Language skills come into play as well. Not enough English speaking people.
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There is no FAA PIC minimum to upgrade from F/O to Captain. If you can do the job, what difference does it make anyway. Like other posters have pointed out, the Europeans have been putting 250 hour pilots in the right seat of 737's and A320's for years. It's not a give away though. You still have to get through the training.
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Hi DesiPilot
Hi,
Greetings from ex CFI teaching at GIF!
Are you still in the US? or back home? I was looking at your site but my emails didn't get to you. Right now, I am in China trying to do some instruction and we need a lot of patience here.
take care,
Flytoo
Greetings from ex CFI teaching at GIF!
Are you still in the US? or back home? I was looking at your site but my emails didn't get to you. Right now, I am in China trying to do some instruction and we need a lot of patience here.
take care,
Flytoo
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My old company just lowered the mins to Commercial, Multi Instrument. I really feel for some of the captains there now. Thats going to be an interesting environment to fly in.
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Originally Posted by IgnitionOverride
A furloughed airline guy working as Instructor at a regional was introduced to me and described a common, but most unfortunate situation. He told me that the Gulfstream program gladly took a guy's money and let him later fly the B-1900. This came as a cruel surprise when he was a new-hire at another company: the lack of actual instrument flying crippled his chances to finish CRJ training.
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no instrument skills?
what kinda bone head doesn't have instrument skills? it isn't the airline's fault the student has weak instrument skills...he wasn't properly trained in flight school and the examiner that passed him didn't do their job properly.
FlyBoyIke:
It has been about three years ago, and I have no idea who the poor guy was. The IP's background was supposedly with Delta. All he said was that the guy had trouble with instrument flying, or maybe he meant performing them in a much faster plane, the guys first jet.
I can easily sympathize, knowing that it is the first FMC c0ckpit for many, rigid standardization for some, and many new types of procedures and demanding, hectic airport environments. Remember, these planes have replaced most DC-9s, F-100s and 737s, even many 727 city pairs. The twin-engine jets went everywhere east of the Rockie Mountains (MIA, HOU, STL, IAH, ATL, MKE, ORD, MDW, BOS, LGA, JFK, DCA...even MSO and
Bozeman). Now, many new FOs flying to these same cities, and many more, have maybe 500 hours total, instead of the 3,000-5,000 which all of us had, with a few exceptions for those who flew F-4s etc. Considering all the extra work (despite fewer legs many days) compared to a BE-1900, SD-360 or SF-340, how about the right-seat pay, counting inflation?
Recruiting pilots with much more than 300 hours for one of our primary regional affiliates is very difficult because the company pays nothing until one flies the CRJ on the line for about two weeks-but they don't pay any expenses during training, no per diem, unless changes have taken place.
Corporate greed at its finest.
Read about the Mesaba's pilots' terrible situation last year. Pilots qualifying for food stamps were asked to pay for a chunk of their medical/dental insurance and also take a pay cut!
It must be bad enough paying the many deductibles even when the company makes payments for the policies...don't at least some have a wife or a little kid with a medical condition?
It has been about three years ago, and I have no idea who the poor guy was. The IP's background was supposedly with Delta. All he said was that the guy had trouble with instrument flying, or maybe he meant performing them in a much faster plane, the guys first jet.
I can easily sympathize, knowing that it is the first FMC c0ckpit for many, rigid standardization for some, and many new types of procedures and demanding, hectic airport environments. Remember, these planes have replaced most DC-9s, F-100s and 737s, even many 727 city pairs. The twin-engine jets went everywhere east of the Rockie Mountains (MIA, HOU, STL, IAH, ATL, MKE, ORD, MDW, BOS, LGA, JFK, DCA...even MSO and
Bozeman). Now, many new FOs flying to these same cities, and many more, have maybe 500 hours total, instead of the 3,000-5,000 which all of us had, with a few exceptions for those who flew F-4s etc. Considering all the extra work (despite fewer legs many days) compared to a BE-1900, SD-360 or SF-340, how about the right-seat pay, counting inflation?
Recruiting pilots with much more than 300 hours for one of our primary regional affiliates is very difficult because the company pays nothing until one flies the CRJ on the line for about two weeks-but they don't pay any expenses during training, no per diem, unless changes have taken place.
Corporate greed at its finest.
Read about the Mesaba's pilots' terrible situation last year. Pilots qualifying for food stamps were asked to pay for a chunk of their medical/dental insurance and also take a pay cut!
It must be bad enough paying the many deductibles even when the company makes payments for the policies...don't at least some have a wife or a little kid with a medical condition?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 3rd Jun 2007 at 05:14.
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Noted this on an interview sheet for a US regional:
"will receive a $500.00 longevity bonus to be paid out to each student that successfully graduates from the training program, and completes six months of continuous employment"
Six months qualifies one for a longevity bonus? Sounds like they are having a few retention problems. The sheet I saw indicated 400TT as a minimum, CRJ FO.
"will receive a $500.00 longevity bonus to be paid out to each student that successfully graduates from the training program, and completes six months of continuous employment"
Six months qualifies one for a longevity bonus? Sounds like they are having a few retention problems. The sheet I saw indicated 400TT as a minimum, CRJ FO.