Arab pilots in America
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Arab pilots in America
Hello,
I dont know how many of you (if any) are pilots (or wanabees) in the US...but my husband is Arab, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me if he would have a very difficult time trying to pursue a job as a flight instructor in the US? He has the basics...his FAA CPL and little flight time (250 hrs I believe)...beyond that I'm not really sure. If there are any recruiters from flight schools in America who can answer my question...or perhaps other arabs pursuing pilot jobs in the US. He wouldnt have any trouble with his paperwork as I am a US citizen, but beyond that, will it be difficult for him? What are his chances?
If this is the wrong forum or wrong thread to post this question in can someone please guide me towards a more appropriate forum or thread?
I dont know how many of you (if any) are pilots (or wanabees) in the US...but my husband is Arab, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me if he would have a very difficult time trying to pursue a job as a flight instructor in the US? He has the basics...his FAA CPL and little flight time (250 hrs I believe)...beyond that I'm not really sure. If there are any recruiters from flight schools in America who can answer my question...or perhaps other arabs pursuing pilot jobs in the US. He wouldnt have any trouble with his paperwork as I am a US citizen, but beyond that, will it be difficult for him? What are his chances?
If this is the wrong forum or wrong thread to post this question in can someone please guide me towards a more appropriate forum or thread?
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Originally Posted by Married2APilot
Really?
How long has he been working as an instructor? Is he a Muslim?
How long has he been working as an instructor? Is he a Muslim?
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Back in my flight instructor days, I had an Iranian student who went on to get his CFI and has had no problem getting work in the U.S. aviation industry, he too gets teased about his ethnicity, although he's frequently the one who initiates it!
As a side note, back in 2000 I had wealthy Saudi woman who came to our flight school and just wanted to do some flying, apparently she was an accomplished pilot and regularly flew in Saudi Arabia, where women are forbidden to fly, she got around this by always having a male pilot talk on the radio. I flew with her a few times, and sure enough she was a very good pilot but I had to do all the talking on the radio as she was very uncomfortable doing it herself. Her name, by the way, was...Najia Bin Laden!
As a side note, back in 2000 I had wealthy Saudi woman who came to our flight school and just wanted to do some flying, apparently she was an accomplished pilot and regularly flew in Saudi Arabia, where women are forbidden to fly, she got around this by always having a male pilot talk on the radio. I flew with her a few times, and sure enough she was a very good pilot but I had to do all the talking on the radio as she was very uncomfortable doing it herself. Her name, by the way, was...Najia Bin Laden!
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Funny stuff
Funny. I know he wouldn't have had a problem pre-9/11 I just wonder if he'd run into alot of diffuculty here now...you know? I wouldn't think that he would...but people are more prejudiced than you think they are, not to mention the fact that the American government has succeeded at making many of us scared at the thought of an arab man flying any plane anywhere.
I wouldn't think that he would...but people are more prejudiced than you think they are, not to mention the fact that the American government has succeeded at making many of us scared at the thought of an arab man flying any plane anywhere.
Not really that surprising is it? Considering the events which have taken place. People, being human, are bound have a certain pre-disposition toward classifying people similar in appearance to the individuals involved in the terrorist attacks as potential threats until they able to judge the individuals personally through knowing them. Keep in mind that the attackers moved freely within our country while they prepared for their plot.
Having said all that, I find that individual people set aside these understandable prejudices once they get to know someone. Or not, if the person tends to live up to their negative stereotype. Their personal experiences with a person tend to trump any pre-concieved ideas as to the character of a person which might have been assumed based upon their "profile" prior to knowing them. All of us have to live with the fact that we are judged on the basis of our appearance until people take the time and trouble to know us. I find that those people who are outgoing and caring can quickly gain support and friendship from people wherever they go. Having known and flown with people from many cultures from around the world, I can assure you that it is the individual character of a person which matters most to a majority of people, particularily in the pilot community. There will always be a certain number of individuals who cannot see beyond their prejudices and will not be deterred from their narrowly focused mindset. Such is life.
A friend of mine who is of Iranian descent is a pilot at a major airline. Everybody who knows him likes and respects him for his character and personal accomplishments. Aside from just being a likable guy, he has helped several people I know, including myself. Shortly after 9/11, while loading at the gate on a flight with his airline, a passenger stood up and objected to flying on the airplane with him as a flight crewmember, based upon his "Arabic" appearance and name. The captain of the aircraft removed that passenger from the flight and made it clear that anyone else who was "uncomfortable" were also free to disembark. None did.
Your husband may indeed face some prejudice on the part of some individuals. That experience will test the personal character of anybody who faces it. All I can say is that those individuals who face this with grace and aplomb seem to win out in the end. Those who carry a chip on their shoulder seem to find prejudice wherever they look. I would not presume to say I know what it feels like to walk a mile in another person's shoes, but I can say that I, and most people I know, tend to set aside any prejudices we might have in favor of what we know about a person after getting to know them.
Best of success to your husband in his endeavors. Should he elect to proceed in aviation, his level of success will be determined mostly by the same factors as for everyone else. Hard work, qualifications, personal associations, good market timing and the right location are all important factors in achieving success. And a few lucky breaks can't hurt either!
Best regards,
Westhawk
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Well said, Westy. Like I said before the threadcleaning, how the man flies, and how he teaches will determine his success as a CFI. Good English skills are essential to a teacher. Beyond that, students won't care where he's from or how different his name is.
Finally, religion has no place in flight training, and he must be prepared to deal with that, along with the odd intolerant clod, in a graceful manner.
Finally, religion has no place in flight training, and he must be prepared to deal with that, along with the odd intolerant clod, in a graceful manner.
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Thank you all for your advice on the subject. This is all pretty much what I've felt but because I'm not in the field I questioned it I guess. My issues with him and his aviation though, is that he isn't hour building. While I believe thats what he should be doing...he believes something different entirely. On and off for the past year or so he's been submitting all these resumes to pilot jobs that he hasn't the slightest qualification for. I realize that sometimes in the aviation field pilots catch a big break and low hour pilots get hired for positions they aren't qualified for. But how often does this happen? Does it really make sense to focus all of your energy towards applying for all of these jobs you arent even qualified for? He's even travelled to different countries to personally submit his resume. Some airlines are desperate and they really need pilots. To me all that means is they'll consider someone with 4000 hours for a 5000 hour requirement. I've never thought it to mean they're so desperate they'd hire someone with 250 hours. And with such a huge fear that anything I say to him will be interpreted as a lack of support...I've said virtually nothing. And then he gets all this encouragement from other people in the field that he meets, pilots included, telling him to keep doing what he's doing. "We can't hire you because you dont have any experience....but yeah, keep doing what you're doing." What kind of advice is that? It seems to me that the most important thing in his pursuit to becoming a pilot right now is to build hours. Am I wrong in my thinking? Now he's considering buying a type rating....does this make sense at this point in his career? Will airlines look at him differently?
The other part of my questioning is this: If hour building is the best option for a low hour pilot, is there some other way to hour build besides instructing? Simply because someone's dream is to fly doesnt mean they'd be good at teaching others right? His english is great and honestly when it comes to other things he seems to teach them well...but everyone isn't a teacher....so what options does a pilot have when they want to hour build but they aren't blessed with teaching skills?
The other part of my questioning is this: If hour building is the best option for a low hour pilot, is there some other way to hour build besides instructing? Simply because someone's dream is to fly doesnt mean they'd be good at teaching others right? His english is great and honestly when it comes to other things he seems to teach them well...but everyone isn't a teacher....so what options does a pilot have when they want to hour build but they aren't blessed with teaching skills?
The realities of pilot career progression
Married2APilot:
Please forgive me for saying this, but it sounds as though your husband has an unrealistic view of his prospects at this point in the process of gaining qualifications for a career as a professional pilot. While there may indeed be exceptions, it is generally the case that a commercial pilot certificate and 250 hours is the very bottom rung of the ladder with respect to finding work as a pilot in the USA. This is the minimum qualification required to accept compensation for performing pilot duties. Consequently, the sort of pilot jobs open to individuals with that level of experience and qualification are generally limited to what are considered "entry level" pilot positions.
Presently in the USA, 250 hours won't meet the requirements to do much outside of flight instructing. For this, a CFI certificate is required. (more financial and time/effort investment!) While it is a shame that market forces have created the situation whereby the least experienced pilots in the employment pool are placed in the position of teaching people to fly, this is indeed common and the most often pursued path for pilot career progression in the USA. The shame is that, as you say, "everyone isn't a teacher". Nevertheless, this is how it is most often done.
Typically, someone will work as a CFI for a period of time to gain hours and learn by teaching. Most will stick with this work until they can get their second flying job. Towing banners, flying traffic watch, pipeline patrol, hauling skydivers, glider tow and VFR charter are all possibilities once a few hundred hours have been logged. More time building. Many CFIs will gain instrument and mult-engine instructor ratings to increase their marketabilitiy and begin building that all-important multi time. Commuter and regional airlines are currently hiring first officers at around 1,000 hours with 100 multi minimum. Averages may be higher. These jobs are just further stepping stones in the process since they often actually pay less than instructing! More time building. The end result of all this "paying your dues" is that the "faint of heart" will be weeded out by this difficult and demanding process. Only dedicated individuals will progress further. Those that make it this far have learned much, but then must then qualify for their ATP certificate. You must be an ATP to captain the jet. Then... more time building. After 7-10 years of working as a pilot, the major airlines might be interested if they are in a hiring trend. If not, it will take longer.
Some, like myself, chose a different route. I went into jet charter as an entry level co-pilot after instructing part time for several years. I had another career in aviation while I built time because I wanted a decent standard of living. This meant that it took longer and I was older before I made captain in small charter jets, where I remain today. But I always made a decent living along the way and took no loans. Each person chooses their own path and lives with the consequences, good and bad.
In Europe and some other parts of the world, things may work differently. For information on that, I would pose the question to the "Questions" forum. Perhaps this explains your husband's visits to other countries. Here in the US, he's got a long ways to go! When a pilot tells him to "keep doing what you're doing", I would hope he is under the impression that your husband is a working pilot building time. Otherwise, it's bad advice. It is most unfortunate that flight schools and others who profit from the dreams of neophytes seem to always gloss over the realities of a career flying airplanes. Only those who really want to do it deep down inside their gut will make it very far once the realities become apparent. That's not to say that a lucky few won't find an easier path. Mine wasn't really so bad, but then I really have the "flying bug" bad!
If your husband really wants to pursue this career, I respectfully suggest he devote his energies to getting into a position to build time and experience. Time spent trying to get lucky with a shortcut has only an outside chance of paying off. If he is in this for any reason other than to fly airplanes, this probably isn't a good career choice. To quote (probably incorrectly!) a member of another online forum: " If you are in this for prestige, respect or money, you'll probably be disappointed. Fly because you like to." That is good advice!
As to how you are to deal with all of this, I have no advice for you. Not my area of expertise. My sincere apologies. Perhaps you could find a good book on the subject. I don't personally know of one. In any case, the very best of wishes to you.
Best regards,
Westhawk
Please forgive me for saying this, but it sounds as though your husband has an unrealistic view of his prospects at this point in the process of gaining qualifications for a career as a professional pilot. While there may indeed be exceptions, it is generally the case that a commercial pilot certificate and 250 hours is the very bottom rung of the ladder with respect to finding work as a pilot in the USA. This is the minimum qualification required to accept compensation for performing pilot duties. Consequently, the sort of pilot jobs open to individuals with that level of experience and qualification are generally limited to what are considered "entry level" pilot positions.
Presently in the USA, 250 hours won't meet the requirements to do much outside of flight instructing. For this, a CFI certificate is required. (more financial and time/effort investment!) While it is a shame that market forces have created the situation whereby the least experienced pilots in the employment pool are placed in the position of teaching people to fly, this is indeed common and the most often pursued path for pilot career progression in the USA. The shame is that, as you say, "everyone isn't a teacher". Nevertheless, this is how it is most often done.
Typically, someone will work as a CFI for a period of time to gain hours and learn by teaching. Most will stick with this work until they can get their second flying job. Towing banners, flying traffic watch, pipeline patrol, hauling skydivers, glider tow and VFR charter are all possibilities once a few hundred hours have been logged. More time building. Many CFIs will gain instrument and mult-engine instructor ratings to increase their marketabilitiy and begin building that all-important multi time. Commuter and regional airlines are currently hiring first officers at around 1,000 hours with 100 multi minimum. Averages may be higher. These jobs are just further stepping stones in the process since they often actually pay less than instructing! More time building. The end result of all this "paying your dues" is that the "faint of heart" will be weeded out by this difficult and demanding process. Only dedicated individuals will progress further. Those that make it this far have learned much, but then must then qualify for their ATP certificate. You must be an ATP to captain the jet. Then... more time building. After 7-10 years of working as a pilot, the major airlines might be interested if they are in a hiring trend. If not, it will take longer.
Some, like myself, chose a different route. I went into jet charter as an entry level co-pilot after instructing part time for several years. I had another career in aviation while I built time because I wanted a decent standard of living. This meant that it took longer and I was older before I made captain in small charter jets, where I remain today. But I always made a decent living along the way and took no loans. Each person chooses their own path and lives with the consequences, good and bad.
In Europe and some other parts of the world, things may work differently. For information on that, I would pose the question to the "Questions" forum. Perhaps this explains your husband's visits to other countries. Here in the US, he's got a long ways to go! When a pilot tells him to "keep doing what you're doing", I would hope he is under the impression that your husband is a working pilot building time. Otherwise, it's bad advice. It is most unfortunate that flight schools and others who profit from the dreams of neophytes seem to always gloss over the realities of a career flying airplanes. Only those who really want to do it deep down inside their gut will make it very far once the realities become apparent. That's not to say that a lucky few won't find an easier path. Mine wasn't really so bad, but then I really have the "flying bug" bad!
If your husband really wants to pursue this career, I respectfully suggest he devote his energies to getting into a position to build time and experience. Time spent trying to get lucky with a shortcut has only an outside chance of paying off. If he is in this for any reason other than to fly airplanes, this probably isn't a good career choice. To quote (probably incorrectly!) a member of another online forum: " If you are in this for prestige, respect or money, you'll probably be disappointed. Fly because you like to." That is good advice!
As to how you are to deal with all of this, I have no advice for you. Not my area of expertise. My sincere apologies. Perhaps you could find a good book on the subject. I don't personally know of one. In any case, the very best of wishes to you.
Best regards,
Westhawk
Married2,
Has your husband seen any of this thread ? Perhaps he could take a look and see the good advice he's gotten here.
If you can, suggest he go to www.flightinfo.com and ask his question there as it's mainly a US forum with many people like himself ( i.e. low timers just starting ).
They do have some intelligent, experienced people who can add to the discussion.
Good luck to him.
Westhawk, well done, Sir. I hope her husband gets to read your great advice.
Has your husband seen any of this thread ? Perhaps he could take a look and see the good advice he's gotten here.
If you can, suggest he go to www.flightinfo.com and ask his question there as it's mainly a US forum with many people like himself ( i.e. low timers just starting ).
They do have some intelligent, experienced people who can add to the discussion.
Good luck to him.
Westhawk, well done, Sir. I hope her husband gets to read your great advice.
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Originally Posted by westhawk
Married2APilot:
Commuter and regional airlines are currently hiring first officers at around 1,000 hours with 100 multi minimum. Averages may be higher.
Commuter and regional airlines are currently hiring first officers at around 1,000 hours with 100 multi minimum. Averages may be higher.
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I dont know if this makes much of a difference but his goal hasn't been to become a pilot in the US. Its been to become a pilot in Europe...though his licence is an FAA one and it is not converted. I'm thinking the route to take in Europe is the same....but I guess I'll post my question there and see. My husband is a member on this forum though...he's the one that told me about it. I dont think he comes on anymore though.
It's a little better than that now. 100 multi is correct, but they are taking people with a low as 450TT.
Westhawk, well done, Sir. I hope her husband gets to read your great advice.
Flightinfo.com might be too corrupting an influence our friend's morale! Since it costs ten bucks to join FI now, that money may well be better spent over at propilotworld.com. This forum was created by some former FI mods and is open only to those holding a commercial pilot certificate or higher. This is verified through an identification process prior to access being granted. Similar to an idea proposed by the owner of this site. This policy has been effective in keeping posers, fakes, flamebaiters and troublemakers out of the discussions. Many of the screen names are familiar from flightinfo, who seem to have lost many of their more valuable contributors. However, a few of the good ones have not given up over there yet. Note that the quote (or paraphrase?) from my earlier post was from pilotyip, a particularily colorful and frank contributor at FI. Several of the PPW and FI members also frequent PPRuNe.
I don't know if anything I have stated here will be of assistance to Married2APilot or her husband, but I hope so. He should be doing some kind of flying now if he hopes to take the next step. Whatever he chooses to do, I wish both of them the best of success and happiness just because the wife seems like a thoughtful and kind person.
Best regards,
Westhawk
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Best of luck to him. The problem with the image of Arab Muslims in general in the US is self-inflicted. It's usually the open prejudice that more than just a few Arab Muslims show towards others, such as Jews, that causes them to be painted with a broad brush.
I've known and flown with some Arab-Americans and Iranian-Americans. Those people have made it publically very clear about which side of the fence they stand on. They stand on OUR side, and not on the side of the fanatics, Jew-haters, the limp-wristed, keep-your-mouth-shut cowards, or the substancial number of silent tacit supporters of the Islamic fanatics.
I've known and flown with some Arab-Americans and Iranian-Americans. Those people have made it publically very clear about which side of the fence they stand on. They stand on OUR side, and not on the side of the fanatics, Jew-haters, the limp-wristed, keep-your-mouth-shut cowards, or the substancial number of silent tacit supporters of the Islamic fanatics.
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Originally Posted by westhawk
But then, European LCCs seem to be putting some pretty low time pilots in Boeings and Airbuses. Go figure! I'll leave the argument as to the wisdom of such a practice to all the other threads on several forums to be sorted out.
Originally Posted by westhawk
I don't know if anything I have stated here will be of assistance to Married2APilot or her husband, but I hope so. He should be doing some kind of flying now if he hopes to take the next step. Whatever he chooses to do, I wish both of them the best of success and happiness just because the wife seems like a thoughtful and kind person.
Best regards,
Westhawk
Best regards,
Westhawk
Whats love got to do with it?
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Married2apilot;
From reading your posts it almost seems to me that your are working harder at your husbands' goal of becoming a proffesional pilot than he is. (He is very fortunate to be married to someone like yourself)
Bottom line is this; if your hubby really wants a good paying flying job he needs to realize that with 250 hours and a Commercial certificate he is only 10% of the way there. He needs to buckle down, build hours anyway he can, ideally by working on more ratings such as a CFI, followed by his CFII, Multi-engine rating and his MEI. By doing this, he will be building his hours [U]and[U] his proffesional capability at the same time. All this costs money, so he will need a part time (or even a full time) job to pay for the ratings as well as put food on the table.
Do not under any circumstances pay for a type rating at this point. With less than 1500 hours (or even 2500) a type rating is worthless, and if you stick to your plan you can get someone else to pay for it when you are qualified.
I don't know much about hiring practices in europe, but I'm sure that 250 hours and a commercial aren't going to do much either, I expect a 1,000 hours is more like a reasonable minimum, so anyway he looks at it he is just going to have pay his dues like the rest of us.
I wish you both the best of luck.
From reading your posts it almost seems to me that your are working harder at your husbands' goal of becoming a proffesional pilot than he is. (He is very fortunate to be married to someone like yourself)
Bottom line is this; if your hubby really wants a good paying flying job he needs to realize that with 250 hours and a Commercial certificate he is only 10% of the way there. He needs to buckle down, build hours anyway he can, ideally by working on more ratings such as a CFI, followed by his CFII, Multi-engine rating and his MEI. By doing this, he will be building his hours [U]and[U] his proffesional capability at the same time. All this costs money, so he will need a part time (or even a full time) job to pay for the ratings as well as put food on the table.
Do not under any circumstances pay for a type rating at this point. With less than 1500 hours (or even 2500) a type rating is worthless, and if you stick to your plan you can get someone else to pay for it when you are qualified.
I don't know much about hiring practices in europe, but I'm sure that 250 hours and a commercial aren't going to do much either, I expect a 1,000 hours is more like a reasonable minimum, so anyway he looks at it he is just going to have pay his dues like the rest of us.
I wish you both the best of luck.
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It's a tough market out there. Post 9/11 there are literally thousands of very highly qualified pilots out there lookking for just about anything they can find.
A 250 hr pilot will be lucky to find work as a CFI, and will have to do so for about 2 years before applying for a regional. The exception is those who pay the 60-80K for ab initio programs (Comair/Mesa, Flight Safety).
There are definitely "raised eyebrows" when you have someone of ME origin looking for a pilot job. It all depends on your personality background and how you carry yourself. At my airline we have several pilots of ME origin. I personally worked in Saudi Arabia as a corporate pilot, but that didnt affect getting hired here. Ofcourse I am a U.S. citizen, not of ME origin, and a 20 year veteran of the USAF.
Serious candidates should expect a rough road until they meet the minimums for airline or corporate hiring. If you really want it--keep at it--Fly Fly Fly. I have been with the airlines for 17 years--I have been through 7 airlines!
No glamour job here, but at the end of the day, I love what I do.
A 250 hr pilot will be lucky to find work as a CFI, and will have to do so for about 2 years before applying for a regional. The exception is those who pay the 60-80K for ab initio programs (Comair/Mesa, Flight Safety).
There are definitely "raised eyebrows" when you have someone of ME origin looking for a pilot job. It all depends on your personality background and how you carry yourself. At my airline we have several pilots of ME origin. I personally worked in Saudi Arabia as a corporate pilot, but that didnt affect getting hired here. Ofcourse I am a U.S. citizen, not of ME origin, and a 20 year veteran of the USAF.
Serious candidates should expect a rough road until they meet the minimums for airline or corporate hiring. If you really want it--keep at it--Fly Fly Fly. I have been with the airlines for 17 years--I have been through 7 airlines!
No glamour job here, but at the end of the day, I love what I do.
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Low time pilots in Europe!!
Agree with everything that has been said here about the Arab gentleman wishing to fly in the US. The only way is to instruct and build hours that way. Buying a type rating at this stage would be a waste of good money.
We have all been at the stage where we just wanted to jump straight into the big jet and go, but in all honesty, you only realise once you get there that you actually spent too much time worrying about flying heavy jets and not enough time enjoying real flying. By the time you get to the big boys, you hardly fly the bloody things anymore anyway.
As for low time guys in Europe, I did my licenses in the US before returning to Europe.
For every pilot over here with 300 hours who gets lucky and finds a job, there are 1000 who do not.
I wish them both the best of luck. He's a lucky guy to have a wife this understanding.
We have all been at the stage where we just wanted to jump straight into the big jet and go, but in all honesty, you only realise once you get there that you actually spent too much time worrying about flying heavy jets and not enough time enjoying real flying. By the time you get to the big boys, you hardly fly the bloody things anymore anyway.
As for low time guys in Europe, I did my licenses in the US before returning to Europe.
For every pilot over here with 300 hours who gets lucky and finds a job, there are 1000 who do not.
I wish them both the best of luck. He's a lucky guy to have a wife this understanding.
