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SAS recruitment

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SAS recruitment

Old 15th Feb 2013, 13:11
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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The days of high compensation and benefits are long gone at SAS. If it is to survive the cost structure has to be competitive with competition. Well this brought SAS into the abyss in the first place. I cannot see how SAS will be ale to compete on a level playing field flying old steel kites which consumes 15-20% more fuel than e.g. Norwegian
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Old 15th Feb 2013, 13:30
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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But from these details, their pay structure is not competitive with the competition!

RYR, Norwegian and other Low Co companies pay better than this!

Saving money is getting rid of some of the pencil pushers, a huge admin that is not needed, more efficiency in the right places!

Of course flying around with yesteryears technology is not going to help either! Fact is that SAS was caught out in a deep sleep, not reacting to the market as the world around moved forward!

History shows that you come to SAS, your chances of LHS are close to ZERO, so there is no incentive to go to SAS as far as I see it.
Low pay, long time for upgrade - not very exciting times with SAS are there?
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Old 15th Feb 2013, 18:12
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Sorry to say

I think we all have to face the fact that the future for us that want to make flying as our career, will be in the Middle-or The Far East. SAS or other airlines in Europe cannot compete with the likes of Emirates/Etihad/Qatari/Air China/Thai/Air Asia etc. I suppose we will always have the likes of Ryanair/Norwegian and some leftovers of the flag carriers - but in a smaller frame than today. This does not all have to be bad though - the pay in Emirates is not bad at all, support for your kids to go to a proper school, good health care for you and your family and not having to worry about the ice on the roads monday morning when going to work, or if this year we will get a good summer or not
Bottom line, is your glass half full or half empty......
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Old 15th Feb 2013, 22:54
  #44 (permalink)  
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- Start salary between kr.29 and 36.000 depending on type.
- Top salary kr.92.000 after 24 years.
- No temporary employments.
- No pay to fly, and no bonding.
- Work pattern shorthaul 5-4/5-3.
- Longhaul average 15 days off pr mth.
- 6 weeks paid leave pr year.
- Appr 25% of salary pr year into pension fund.
- Per diem between kr.400 and 1000 per day.

Is this worse conditions than DY, RYR and other LCC...? Worse than Vuelings kr 6000 pr mth starting salary, temporarily employed, pay to fly and bonding and no pension as well then...?

You are far off, and do REALLY not know what you are talking about, so this is end of this discussion from my side!
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 08:02
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Norway
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"History shows that you come to SAS, your chances of LHS are close to ZERO..."

SAS pilots are on average relatively old. Most applicants will understand that the high age of upgrades now will be good news in some years.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 08:45
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Not worth much

Not worth much when you receive the "letter" from SAS like 390 of us did in 2002/2003. I would like nothing better that returning back to SAS. But I am afraid that the current offer does not cover my monthly bills. My few years with SAS were great, good training and great experience - but I cannot justify going to bed "hungry" cos of some romantic picture that I have about returning back to SAS. With the Nordic tax system, what is left after you have contributed to the well-fare system, I dont see how one would be able to live anywhere close to his/her base in CPH/OSL/STO.

I hope those that do return back to SAS will find what they hope to find and again to those of you thinking about leaving a good job for SAS - think again......
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 09:33
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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My comments was based on 2500 - 2700 Euro pay per month, it would be good if people could be consistent with the currencies they use, if kroner, at least mention if Norwegian, Swedish or Danish, as they are not the same.

SK-pilot:

The FO's I know with RYR do about 850 hours a year, I believe after 500 hours and before 1500 hours they get around 65 Euros per hour, after 1500 hours 85 Euros per hour.

Use the lowest scale and that works out just under 5000 Euros per year, even if they have to pay tax of this, taxes are nothing close to Scandi taxes, i addition they can deduct ALL expenses before paying taxes.

Captains as far as I heard are making around 145 Euros per hour, and you make captain within 3 - 5 years normally. With the same amount of hours per year as also a few friends of mine do with UK base, this works out around 10.000 Euro per month, and you reach this figure much quicker than with SAS.

Now have in mind RYR are not one of the top payers, it makes SAS offer seem poor in my opinion.


Instead of clinging to the Scandi model of social welfare, and paying high taxes to secure pensions, there are OTHER ways people can secure their own retirement funds, if instead of waiting 24 years with SAS to get the TOP salary bracket, they can reach this within 4 - 5 years with few other companies.

It's the cushy welfare system in countries like Norway, that creates this massive government theft of peoples hard earnt money in taxes and various social contributions!

No I do not like RYR any more than most others, but when working for RYR can give pilots more pay and faster increase in pay, than working for a company as SAS pretend to be, I feel it is sad state of affairs!

High age of current SAS pilots, will not have impact on getting command with SAS still for many years, maybe average age is 50 or so, it will still than take 15 years until then there will more upgrades than normal, in 15 years SAS might not even exist anymore!
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 10:46
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Forget your romanticized picture of Ryanair truckflyer. I have never had more than an average of 3300 take home as an FO on the highest scale.

You can of course make claim bogus "expenses" to reduce tax but don't really expect to get away with it for long.

And with that I have to pay my normal living expenses, and of course pay for an apartment in a second country since Ryanair sent me to somewhere far off with no chance of coming home or the base I want.

Paying for hotels, food, uniform and putting some aside for the day I have a car accident and no income for a few months.

There isn't a lot left after that is there truckflyer?

Let's not forget that after several years of working here I have yet to earn a single penny into any pension fund in any country.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 11:07
  #49 (permalink)  
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This turns into a political discussion about welfare models, political systems and housing prices which has nothing to do with this topic.

I do not think taxes are less in Germany than in Norway (they are higher!), it is not less expensive to get an apartment in Paris or London than in Stockholm, and you are free to live wherever you want, whether you work for SAS or an other airline. I work in DK, live in NO, and pay low (appr 25-30%), many live in France, Switserland and UK, and pay a lot less than me, and some live in DK, and pay a lot more... But that has NOTHING do with this topic!!!

If you would base your future on the RYR tax-paying system, which are under investigation in many european countries, you are free to do so. And if you want to live down in the sand, or in the smog in Shanghai for the rest of you life; do it. I am not interested in neither.

The salaries named above are DKK (which is almost the same as NOK), but it has never been a very big difference in salaries between the countries in SAS.

Of course salaries in SAS are now lower then they used to be, but they are not lower than similar airlines throughout europe, like Finnair, Swiss, Austrian or even the big ones.

If salaries had been on a level where you could come back from 10-12 years in another airline, and still get a pay-rise starting at level 1-3 in SAS they would have been much too high for SAS to survive. So due to this, and as mentioned before; most of the new pilots will probably be new-hires.

Regarding LHS: There will yearly be 50-100 retirements in SAS for the next few years, and this year an additional appr 100 due to the Etihad deal and the last round of early retirements. Count for yourself...
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 12:20
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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I do see and understand your point SK-driver. This is the way forward for SAS to try to survive!
I know a political discussion is not the point, however it does greatly hamper Scandinavien business, specially Norway, I can not speak for all others, as I do not know them that well.

Running a business with people working for you in Norway, is not easy, because the government wants taxes for everything, (Arbeidsgiver avgift) and social expenses are very well taken care off.
I have a close friend who recently moved back from UK after she had a child, because in the UK she would get close to nothing, while in Norway she comes straight back after 4 years studies and a baby, and get handed close to 15.000 kroner a month + part paid apartment! (Overgangs-stonad) - Now she is one of the "lucky" ones, because she is fully qualified with a degree, and will go into work life in due time, however many never will! Why bother, if you get more do nothing!
So of course this does impact on company and our salaries, because we get paid less, so more people can live and do nothing!

However I think one of the main issues SAS have now, is the amount of issues that are mounting ahead of them, increased competition, old fleet, insecure future, personally I would not mind working for SAS myself, but I have seen and talked to few who left companies like Austrian, Euro-Lot, Spanair, Alitalia and few other companies that hit the wall, and many jumped ship before the companies crashed, and for many they had to take a step backwards to get ahead. And your risk going to SAS, and being without a job at any time if things goes pear-shaped with the company.

Few days ago I met a pilot with 4000 hours on MD-80, recently lost his job, was going to pay for his own A320 TR, to make himself more employable!

When I travel I always compare the prices, SAS, BA, RYR, Norwegian and others, and always SAS come out the most expensive, I hate RYR bazars during the flight, so unless they are almost free, I would normally no fly with them, also Torp is NOT Oslo!
So it normally stands between BA and Norwegian, and this again is about price! So SAS have to have loyal customer base who do not just look for price, and maybe they have some key routes that I do not use, where they are the cheapest. But my personal experience with SAS is that altough I would be happy to fly with them, they have not been competitive enough!

Regarding the LHS, sure pilots retiring / leaving, but any new starters will be left at the bottom of the pile, while there are loads already frustrated of have been waiting for long time for the LHS. How long time will it take a new hire to be promoted to the LHS? 4 - 5 years?

I agree about the ME, not tempting prospect for me or my family, the far east however is a different concept, depends of course where you go, I have lived in both Hong Kong, Macau and Singapore in the past, and travelled around Malaysia and Indonesia, and some cities in China, of those places probably would only consider live in Singapore or Hong Kong, if I had a choice!

fightthepower -

if you are making that average 3300 Euros, that would mean you are flying around 460 hours a year, maybe this also depends on various bases, the guys I know are UK based, and they also fly much more than that.

Regarding the tax deductions, if you have a Limited company, almost everything you use in connection with your travel, living expenses while you are abroad is deductible, as long as you can relate it to your job!
Of course you need to keep an eye on this all, to know, but you might as well "spend" the money on items that you do require in connection / relation with your job, so without making fictious bills, you should not really need to pay to much tax, specially if you only making 3300 Euros as you say.

Believe me, it's not that complicated, specially if you have a good accountant that can explain you. I have had a Limited company other business for 10 years, if I saw there was a convention related to my business in as an example LA, I could travel there, visit the convention few times, and at the same time have a holiday, all expenses while away was deductable, as I had a reason to go to this specific destination.

Of course the KEY ISSUE, is that you are not really legally self-employed when you are a pilot working for RYR or any other company, however the problem is that NO government / tax authority has had the balls to challenge this, and take the bulls at the horns to stop all those BS contracts anyway. If they did do that of course, they would make it a level playing field for everybody!

Until than, we have to do the best with the options we do have available, and see what will be best for ourselves.

Last edited by truckflyer; 16th Feb 2013 at 12:27.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 13:20
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
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truckflyer, while I do appreciate your polite tone I'm afraid I can't agree with you because life in Ryanair simply isn't good.

The figure of 3300 i mentioned was NET of taxes and with a 80% income retention (which I was never close to) this gives 650 flying hours in a year. The hours are going down for FOs but this is not the issue here really.

We can claim "legal" expenses but the problem is that the pilots are not self employed by legal definition and the majority of us have been forced into this pseudo-legal arrangement against our will.

Ryanair simply does not compare to SAS if you are an 20 something year old FO.

I could add to the list in my last post of miserable conditions we have to endure but i think everybody get's the point anyway.

The people who really enjoy working in Ryanair do so at their colleagues expense.

If any poor FOs with Irish limited companies who are based in Bari against their will really enjoys it and finds it acceptable I can only say congratulations and all the best.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 15:45
  #52 (permalink)  
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@Truckflyer: Well - this is the first time I read that selling too expensive tickets is a problem for SAS - everyone else say we are selling tickets too cheap! With the very high load factors we have had for the last year, too high prices would be a very nice "problem"...! As an example; I checked the space avail situation on CPH-BKK for a friend for tomorrow; Thai have 113 seats available and SAS have 2 seats... I recommended him to fly Thai...!

Regarding the "old" fleet, I think you should check the average age once more - especially at the end of the year, when all MDs and most -300 are out of service. I dont quite understand where that 4000 hr MD pilot fit into this discussion. Not an ex SAS pilot I suppose, since we have not fired any pilots recently...

And again; that social/political discussion I leave to someone else - it is not a part of this topic at all!
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 16:35
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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If I could rewind the clock 30 odd years I'd go for the option that offers quickest time to command, then go to one of the Asian / Middle East carriers since that's we're the money is and obviously the big metal.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 16:54
  #54 (permalink)  
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"Big metal"...??? God! - maybe I thought like that when I was like 21 years old... You are free to make that choice, but that is NOT for me, nor for any of my friends that have tried it! I have a life outside the cockpit as well, and that life will not be lived in the middle east!
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 22:33
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I do agree on this last point, money and how big the metal is, does not matter at all!

Also do not believe in this golden dream of the ME, I know loads of guys who have been there, and it is not as great as you might believe it is!

I am not tolerant enough to take my family to live in an intolerant country!
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 10:17
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Of course the KEY ISSUE, is that you are not really legally self-employed when you are a pilot working for RYR or any other company, however the problem is that NO government / tax authority has had the balls to challenge this,
Oh really?

Known contract pilots with Norwegian citizenship are these days recieving a letter from the Norwegian Tax Administration stating that all income from flying as a contractor is to be reported as salary and not business revenue (lønnsinntekt vs næringsinntekt), with only "normal" deductions allowable.

(Dual taxation agreements may limit Norways power to levy tax, but as per normal practice, if taxed owed to the other country is less, you will still have to pay the difference.)
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 12:54
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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SAS-crew can fly for free. The company will still not be competitive. It isn't the working crew in SAS who are the problem, it's the fact that they have 8 meaningless managers and assistants for every flight attendant on the pay roll.

Seeing as nobody who makes the cuts are going to fire themselves or their management buddies, SAS is in for a slow painful death where the ultimate demise will be blamed on whichever political party is running the country at the time.

But, it's good news for Norwegian to have SAS slowly fade away rather than go out overnight with a bang. It keeps the Ryanair hyenas away and allows Norwegian a smooth take over in a pace that they can handle.

Ultimately it's an industry shift taking place and there is no stopping it.

In 10 years time we will be shaking our heads and the pay and work hours wondering what happened same as retirees from the -80s are doing now. 400 hrs a year, 1 hr turn-arounds, techs doing the external checks, load masters doing the m&b sheet. We laugh at the days of old and wonder how they could get away with it. A pension! Insurance! Crazy. Meanwhile they look at us from their villa in Nice and think why does anyone put up with it? Where's the respect?

We will do the same. From our villas. In Latvia. Eating porridge.

Meanwhile the bureaucrats in Brussels, when they aren't busy not paying income tax, sit down and decide how much rest the latest Pilot: Model 2013-1a, will require before heading off to another important free dinner party. I imagine we will find an emergency locker with amphetamine-pills onboard soon, for a pick-me-up before landing. Break glass in case of fatigue.

Enjoy! It's only your life passing by.
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 15:02
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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@SK-pilot
I think we can all be honest and admit that apart from the pension the SK- contract is lower than any of us could have imagined. They wave the 100k after 24 years in front of the new recruits like the carrot in front of the donkey...
As long as SK have a twice as high CASK than DY and FR do you really think they'll last for another 24 years?
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 15:24
  #59 (permalink)  
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Yes - as long as SAS cut costs and continue to have among the industries highest earning pr pax. Costs in LCCs will always be lower, but SAS must come down to the CASK of other major airlines.

The CASK in SAS is going dramatically down after the reorganization - the latest estimate a few days ago (leading to an immediate 10% increase in the stock) is for 600 msek more than previously announced.

DY have actually twice the CASK of FR - do you really think DY will survive...?
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 15:40
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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somethingclever,

Think you summarised it very well there.
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