Initial A/C training @ SAS
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Initial A/C training @ SAS
Just out of curiousity, I was wondering if any of you SAS people out there might know the approx. ratio of new hire training regarding which type they end up on. Most people seem to end up on the 737 but surley there most be some initial MD training going on. Also does it matter what base you end up on, and in that case what about CPH?
Many thanks in advance.
Many thanks in advance.
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Most people do, as you say start out on the 737, but still some on the MD80. Last class I heard of was 8 on the Boeing and 2 on the MD. Now that might all change this coming summer and fall, when a lot of people will be going onto the new Airbuses. A lot of those will be coming from the MD, as most newhires have been assigned the 737, and therefore are "stuck" on that one for 3 years.
Base?? Well I´m danish, so I prefer CPH
..
Depends on where you would like to live!!
Operational differences; not many, but european flights out of CPH are somewhat shorter, something I like.. STO-MXP is to me the longhaul that I dread...
Salary a little different, in that currency exchange rates make (at THIS time) salary at CPH a little higher. (But then you pay higher taxes here)
Base?? Well I´m danish, so I prefer CPH
..Depends on where you would like to live!!
Operational differences; not many, but european flights out of CPH are somewhat shorter, something I like.. STO-MXP is to me the longhaul that I dread...
Salary a little different, in that currency exchange rates make (at THIS time) salary at CPH a little higher. (But then you pay higher taxes here)
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Ouch, you boys over at SAS are locked-in for 3 years on type after ya hire on?
The US major I work for has no lock-in policy for new hires. Many a guy gets the F/E seat on the B-727, then after 2 weeks on the line, they bid for upgrade on same or different type. After upgrade ya are stuck in that seat for 12 months.
(Uh, slightly off subject, but hey, it may have general interest?)
Or it may not....
What is the deal with the SAS Commuter folks, do they get a seat and a seniority number with SAS these days, or do they have to apply and take the exams, etc as the guys off the street?
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Men, this is no drill...
The US major I work for has no lock-in policy for new hires. Many a guy gets the F/E seat on the B-727, then after 2 weeks on the line, they bid for upgrade on same or different type. After upgrade ya are stuck in that seat for 12 months.
(Uh, slightly off subject, but hey, it may have general interest?)
Or it may not....
What is the deal with the SAS Commuter folks, do they get a seat and a seniority number with SAS these days, or do they have to apply and take the exams, etc as the guys off the street?
------------------
Men, this is no drill...
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Towerdog,
Yup, locked on type for 3 years. And fair enough too, if you ask me. What is 3 years in a 30+ year career. You´d still have time enough for 10 different types (almost)
Much more than I´d care to learn....
No seriously, with the cost involved in typerating these days in mind, I see nothing wrong with a 3 year freeze. Do most pilots at your outfit change type more than once every 3 years??
Concerning SAS Commuter; yes, deal is that those hired at SC gets their number on the combined SAS/SC seniority list when hired. They also start earning "pay seniority" from the first day at SC, so that when/if they choose to move to SAS, they´ll start on payscale level 4. (They´re stuck for 4 years at SC).
Rgds, Hung start
Yup, locked on type for 3 years. And fair enough too, if you ask me. What is 3 years in a 30+ year career. You´d still have time enough for 10 different types (almost)
Much more than I´d care to learn....
No seriously, with the cost involved in typerating these days in mind, I see nothing wrong with a 3 year freeze. Do most pilots at your outfit change type more than once every 3 years??
Concerning SAS Commuter; yes, deal is that those hired at SC gets their number on the combined SAS/SC seniority list when hired. They also start earning "pay seniority" from the first day at SC, so that when/if they choose to move to SAS, they´ll start on payscale level 4. (They´re stuck for 4 years at SC).
Rgds, Hung start
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KADS,
There's a chance you might end up in SAS Commuter. You should avoid this at all costs if you have a choice. In SC you will be stuck for at least four years with:
- Lower salary (a lot)
- More work (5/3 vs 5/4 in SAS Airline)
- Worthless pension
- Slow aircrafts
There's a chance you might end up in SAS Commuter. You should avoid this at all costs if you have a choice. In SC you will be stuck for at least four years with:
- Lower salary (a lot)
- More work (5/3 vs 5/4 in SAS Airline)
- Worthless pension
- Slow aircrafts
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Well, if you have a choice, of course I agree, go to SAS.
Just one little thing: Pension is not worthless at SAS Commuter.I don´t know where you got that from? (Same percentage as at SAS, but of course based on the somewhat lower salary at SC) I´ll supply some numbers if interested.
And what does speed have to do with this? Well OK, I know that it means a lot to some
If you have reasonable experience, then I wouldn´t worry TOO much, as they tend to send the lowest hour newhires to Commuter first.
Just one little thing: Pension is not worthless at SAS Commuter.I don´t know where you got that from? (Same percentage as at SAS, but of course based on the somewhat lower salary at SC) I´ll supply some numbers if interested.
And what does speed have to do with this? Well OK, I know that it means a lot to some
If you have reasonable experience, then I wouldn´t worry TOO much, as they tend to send the lowest hour newhires to Commuter first.
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Hung Start:
Yeah, it is a waste of training money and time to take a long course, just to change aircraft a month or two later.
I heard a price tag of $50,000 to get a new hire F/E on line. Probably includes everything including the interviews and salary, etc.
That is however the way the contract is written.
In this country many guys have no choice as to seat and base when coming aboard, yet to avoid commuting or get out of the side seat, guys bid other stuff ASAP.
Other guys again may like their position and base and stay there for 3 years or more just to get seniority in seat and more control over days off and such.
(You guys still don't have a selective bid system in SAS or in Europe in general???)
Bidding is great, very fair as everything is based on seniority, but then again date of hire becomes King and some folks talk about nothing else. (If they are senior..)
Aye, sorry for hi-jacking the topic again.
(Too lazy to start my own... )
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Men, this is no drill...
Yeah, it is a waste of training money and time to take a long course, just to change aircraft a month or two later.
I heard a price tag of $50,000 to get a new hire F/E on line. Probably includes everything including the interviews and salary, etc.
That is however the way the contract is written.
In this country many guys have no choice as to seat and base when coming aboard, yet to avoid commuting or get out of the side seat, guys bid other stuff ASAP.
Other guys again may like their position and base and stay there for 3 years or more just to get seniority in seat and more control over days off and such.
(You guys still don't have a selective bid system in SAS or in Europe in general???)
Bidding is great, very fair as everything is based on seniority, but then again date of hire becomes King and some folks talk about nothing else. (If they are senior..
)Aye, sorry for hi-jacking the topic again.
(Too lazy to start my own...
)------------------
Men, this is no drill...
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Towerdog,
Another thing where we are behind. Selective bidding... We´ve been told for 2 or 3 years now, that "it´s almost ready".... And then not!!!
I see your point about FE´s, but we don´t have any 3 crew airplanes, so everybody gets to fly. That means, that most are happy enough with the thought of staying 3 years on type..
Let me say it this way, there are many other things that need to be improved here in SAS, before we get to getting rid of the "type freeze"
Hey, sun´s still shining in FLA.??
Was there last week on holiday. Loooved it, and got sunburned
Another thing where we are behind. Selective bidding... We´ve been told for 2 or 3 years now, that "it´s almost ready".... And then not!!!
I see your point about FE´s, but we don´t have any 3 crew airplanes, so everybody gets to fly. That means, that most are happy enough with the thought of staying 3 years on type..
Let me say it this way, there are many other things that need to be improved here in SAS, before we get to getting rid of the "type freeze"
Hey, sun´s still shining in FLA.??
Was there last week on holiday. Loooved it, and got sunburned
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Another fundamental difference is that in the US you are paid by the size of the airplane, so it does make a big difference whether you are on the MD80 or B747. Since SAS has a common jet salary and you automaticcaly get the base closest to where you live, then changing airplane type becomes mostly a matter of destinations.
Out here in Asia we don't have a choice. We fly what we are told to fly, so being able to change every 3 years just for the hell of it seems like a pretty good deal to me.
Out here in Asia we don't have a choice. We fly what we are told to fly, so being able to change every 3 years just for the hell of it seems like a pretty good deal to me.
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KADS (and Hung Start),
I have to clarify on the SAS/SAS Commuter deal when applying for a job within SAS.
As of May 1997, SAS and SAS Commuter integrated their seniority lists, and as a result they also now have a common pilot recruitment programme. This means, that you cannot apply for a job specificly in SAS or SAS Commuter anymore. After passing the tests, you will be offered a job in SAS or SAS Commuter, depending on the needs of the two companies, and to a certain extent, based on your previous experience.
Ab-initios and "low timers" will preferably be employed in SAS Commuter, as it is a more "natural" step to go from a small twin aircraft to Fokker 50 or Q400 than to MD80/B737.
HOWEVER, SAS Commuter cannot only recruit "low timers," because this will create a large problem when SC needs captains. This means that some of the applicants will be offered a job in SC.
Of course you can turn the offer down. You will still be qualified for a job in SAS, but you'll have to wait for the next MD80/B737 course to come up. I know one guy who did this, and had to wait for 8 months for his course to start. As a result, he "lost" 250 places on the combined seniority list, which will mean a hell of a lot when it comes to aircraft and all other biddings the rest of his career and - most importantly - his captain candidate course may be postponed for years. (Depending on the situation in 10-15 years...)
After four years in SC, you are free to bid any aircraft type in the SAS system.
HOWEVER (again...) the number of pilots that SAS may recruit from SC, is limited to 14% of the total amount of pilots in SC (for the time being, 56-57 pilots each year). When yor four years are up, you will probably have 200-250 SC pilots in front of you on the combined seniority list, who are all going to SAS before you.
In addition the fulfillment of your bidding depends on SAS' needs. If SAS don't need pilots on their other A/C at that moment (say 5 or 6 years from now), you may stay in SC for a long time.
In other words - lots of pros, lots of cons, lots of "what have you"s. And God knows what SAS Commuter will look like in five to eight years.
Nick.
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"Pitching down the nose to take maximum advantage of the shape of this highly sophisticated airfoil..."
I have to clarify on the SAS/SAS Commuter deal when applying for a job within SAS.
As of May 1997, SAS and SAS Commuter integrated their seniority lists, and as a result they also now have a common pilot recruitment programme. This means, that you cannot apply for a job specificly in SAS or SAS Commuter anymore. After passing the tests, you will be offered a job in SAS or SAS Commuter, depending on the needs of the two companies, and to a certain extent, based on your previous experience.
Ab-initios and "low timers" will preferably be employed in SAS Commuter, as it is a more "natural" step to go from a small twin aircraft to Fokker 50 or Q400 than to MD80/B737.
HOWEVER, SAS Commuter cannot only recruit "low timers," because this will create a large problem when SC needs captains. This means that some of the applicants will be offered a job in SC.
Of course you can turn the offer down. You will still be qualified for a job in SAS, but you'll have to wait for the next MD80/B737 course to come up. I know one guy who did this, and had to wait for 8 months for his course to start. As a result, he "lost" 250 places on the combined seniority list, which will mean a hell of a lot when it comes to aircraft and all other biddings the rest of his career and - most importantly - his captain candidate course may be postponed for years. (Depending on the situation in 10-15 years...)
After four years in SC, you are free to bid any aircraft type in the SAS system.
HOWEVER (again...) the number of pilots that SAS may recruit from SC, is limited to 14% of the total amount of pilots in SC (for the time being, 56-57 pilots each year). When yor four years are up, you will probably have 200-250 SC pilots in front of you on the combined seniority list, who are all going to SAS before you.
In addition the fulfillment of your bidding depends on SAS' needs. If SAS don't need pilots on their other A/C at that moment (say 5 or 6 years from now), you may stay in SC for a long time.
In other words - lots of pros, lots of cons, lots of "what have you"s. And God knows what SAS Commuter will look like in five to eight years.
Nick.
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"Pitching down the nose to take maximum advantage of the shape of this highly sophisticated airfoil..."
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Nick Figaretto,
Absolutely correct in everything you say....!
KADS, there you have it, much clearer than I could have said it..
As for MD versus B737; This is MY opinion. I haven´t actually talked to pilots about what they have bidded for, but common sense says that a lot more places will be available on the MD, when we get past the summer. Some "old" 737 pilots are free to move as well, but my qualified guess is, that you´ll see most Airbus seats taken up by MD pilots, and since we´ll have the same amount of MD´s in the next coming years, chances of going on the MD should improve. So yes, an october class start should give you a better chance of getting on the sleek and sexy one, than if starting today.
Absolutely correct in everything you say....!
KADS, there you have it, much clearer than I could have said it..
As for MD versus B737; This is MY opinion. I haven´t actually talked to pilots about what they have bidded for, but common sense says that a lot more places will be available on the MD, when we get past the summer. Some "old" 737 pilots are free to move as well, but my qualified guess is, that you´ll see most Airbus seats taken up by MD pilots, and since we´ll have the same amount of MD´s in the next coming years, chances of going on the MD should improve. So yes, an october class start should give you a better chance of getting on the sleek and sexy one, than if starting today.
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Uh, ya guys getting Airbuses these days?
Small or big 'uns?
How about the B-747s ya were leasing from Atlas a few years ago, do ya still fly 'em?
(Incidently I flew the ex-SAS 747s: After SK got read of them, Phillipine Airlines operated a couple for many years, then Tower Air got 'em. Did a free-lance ferry last May from Bangor to Tel-Aviv with the GE engine equipped one. It is now being converted to freighter at an Israeli shop for a cool $20 million. Then the new Southern Air will start flying it in a few weeks.)
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Men, this is no drill...
Small or big 'uns?
How about the B-747s ya were leasing from Atlas a few years ago, do ya still fly 'em?
(Incidently I flew the ex-SAS 747s: After SK got read of them, Phillipine Airlines operated a couple for many years, then Tower Air got 'em. Did a free-lance ferry last May from Bangor to Tel-Aviv with the GE engine equipped one. It is now being converted to freighter at an Israeli shop for a cool $20 million. Then the new Southern Air will start flying it in a few weeks.)
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Men, this is no drill...
Guest
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Ok, see what you mean Unable.
What you say is, that after leaving SC, no more money will be paid into that account, and it won´t be regulated upwards?
Towerdog yes, Airbuses coming. 12 A321 with first delivery in oct. and, I believe, 17 (now I´m afraid I forgot) A330/A340. B767 to be phased out.
We flew ONE Atlas 747 about 2 years ago, but the geniouses
found out that it wasn´t profitable operating just one aircraft, so now they´re letting a Lufthansa MD11 take care of the cargo that can´t be taken in the 767 bellies...
What you say is, that after leaving SC, no more money will be paid into that account, and it won´t be regulated upwards?
Towerdog yes, Airbuses coming. 12 A321 with first delivery in oct. and, I believe, 17 (now I´m afraid I forgot) A330/A340. B767 to be phased out.
We flew ONE Atlas 747 about 2 years ago, but the geniouses
found out that it wasn´t profitable operating just one aircraft, so now they´re letting a Lufthansa MD11 take care of the cargo that can´t be taken in the 767 bellies...
Guest
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Nope Danish Pilot, just one 747 freighter was leased, ..(and flown by SAS crew). Did Sharjah,Hong Kong, and JFK every week I believe..
Now, get it back, and lets have some more.. Everybody else make big dough on cargo. Why not SAS. The freight is there!!!
[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 19 April 2001).]
Now, get it back, and lets have some more.. Everybody else make big dough on cargo. Why not SAS. The freight is there!!!
[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 19 April 2001).]
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Oh, I think they know that there´s tonnes of money in freight, It was just too expensive to have only one (old) aircraft....Then they did the typical Scandinavian reasoning: got rid of the aircraft, instead of getting more of them Never take any chances.
I know that the belly of the new Airbuses will increase cargo capacity by 50%, but considering SAS Cargo, how well they are doing, and how agressive their expansionplans are, why not have a cargofleet, like most larger airlines???
Never take any chances. I know that the belly of the new Airbuses will increase cargo capacity by 50%, but considering SAS Cargo, how well they are doing, and how agressive their expansionplans are, why not have a cargofleet, like most larger airlines???