Morro for unga' - A380
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 0
From: Up north
porkandbrew - Sounds great, but I was talking about the flight deck seats 
A bit off the topic but....
Concerning the "who's flying-fly by wire-conventional ac" discussion all I can say is this.
Modern, fly by wire, aircraft are constructed with built-in protections to deal with human errors, simple as that! Seven flight control computers (A320 series) , and a bunch of other computers, interpret pilot inputs and takes into account, temp, altitude, speed, configuration, weight, AOA, Aicraft Energy (via GS Mini) etc etc and then decides weather or not what you are trying to do is safe or not. The rudder is not protected in the same way however, its max deflection is limited above 160 CAS (if my memory serves me correct?), up to 380-something CAS where max deflection is around 3 degrees....ie you can still f***k up the structure of the aircraft by excessive rudder deflection.
If you are interested in reading more about it then check out smartcockpit.com.....plenty of information on several different aircraft types there....
CP
A bit off the topic but....
Concerning the "who's flying-fly by wire-conventional ac" discussion all I can say is this.
Modern, fly by wire, aircraft are constructed with built-in protections to deal with human errors, simple as that! Seven flight control computers (A320 series) , and a bunch of other computers, interpret pilot inputs and takes into account, temp, altitude, speed, configuration, weight, AOA, Aicraft Energy (via GS Mini) etc etc and then decides weather or not what you are trying to do is safe or not. The rudder is not protected in the same way however, its max deflection is limited above 160 CAS (if my memory serves me correct?), up to 380-something CAS where max deflection is around 3 degrees....ie you can still f***k up the structure of the aircraft by excessive rudder deflection.
If you are interested in reading more about it then check out smartcockpit.com.....plenty of information on several different aircraft types there....
CP
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Scandinavia
GUTTN
hehehe, you are always keen on telling everybody the importance of stick and rudder skills, back to basic etc, I totally agree, but you must remember that even if you have the possibility to use technology from this century most of us flying still likes to fly and do visual approaches. Another thing is that aviation and flying is MUCH more than stick and rudder. How many accidents have you heard of resulting from poor flying skills?
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
From: @ some hotel far away from everything
GTU, yes indeed. But a lot of discussions here are the "yes I agree" type. All fine and dandy, but they also have a tendency to turn out single-faceted
. Anyhow... What I`m trying to say is that perhaps autmation has come so far that basic flying skills (stick and rudder) are not needed as much as they used to (or should). There`s always a trade-off, and to me it seems the stick and rudder skills (which is your final back-up) is the trade-off for automation. You can look at a given situation in a number of ways and get probably even more answers or suggestions, but if you lack the basics then your in deeper than you could have been when things start hitting the fan.
Be prepared for the absolute worst, and be happy that everything 99% of the time works properly. BTW... ask yourself this; how long has it been since you did compass turns?
GTU, yes I love my automation too, second to disconnecting the A/P on a nice day
. Just to knock some rust off the seat of my pants once in awhile
. But a lot of discussions here are the "yes I agree" type. All fine and dandy, but they also have a tendency to turn out single-faceted. Anyhow... What I`m trying to say is that perhaps autmation has come so far that basic flying skills (stick and rudder) are not needed as much as they used to (or should). There`s always a trade-off, and to me it seems the stick and rudder skills (which is your final back-up) is the trade-off for automation. You can look at a given situation in a number of ways and get probably even more answers or suggestions, but if you lack the basics then your in deeper than you could have been when things start hitting the fan. Be prepared for the absolute worst, and be happy that everything 99% of the time works properly. BTW... ask yourself this; how long has it been since you did compass turns?
GTU, yes I love my automation too, second to disconnecting the A/P on a nice day
. Just to knock some rust off the seat of my pants once in awhile
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: another planet
evolution
Boeing,
I drive them, they are constructed in the sixties, we are in 2009. To me that is like in the seventies driving something constructed in the thirties.
In the seventies we wrote typewriters, nowadays we write on computers.
In the seventies cars had carburators, nowadays computercontrolled injection.
The rest of the world has moved on, maybe time for Seattle to move on as well.
Stick and rudder is a good thing, but several "good" S&R pilots has gone down because they stressed airframes beyond design limits. Computers could have prevented this, I cannot recall an accident related to nothing but computer malfunction except maybe on the Gripen prototype. Accidents with computers are related to people not using them correctly.
I would't mind some usable open space in front of me instead of a bullhorn of a dinosaur!
Anyway this is a silly discussion
I drive them, they are constructed in the sixties, we are in 2009. To me that is like in the seventies driving something constructed in the thirties.
In the seventies we wrote typewriters, nowadays we write on computers.
In the seventies cars had carburators, nowadays computercontrolled injection.
The rest of the world has moved on, maybe time for Seattle to move on as well.
Stick and rudder is a good thing, but several "good" S&R pilots has gone down because they stressed airframes beyond design limits. Computers could have prevented this, I cannot recall an accident related to nothing but computer malfunction except maybe on the Gripen prototype. Accidents with computers are related to people not using them correctly.
I would't mind some usable open space in front of me instead of a bullhorn of a dinosaur!
Anyway this is a silly discussion
Aviator
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
From: Norveg
Yes, it is silly! But it is also very, very entertaining
I'll give this silly "discussion" a try:
I like the Boeing 737 because you can stall and crash it anytime you like. Our aircraft also have little stickers on the thrust lever quadrant indicating, with both arrows and text, that forward movement of the TLs will increase thrust. Interesting - in case we didn't know, I suppose!
Also, I find it very useful to know whether the flaps are in the 2 deg or 25 deg position (as opposed to just 1, 2, 3 etc.). Ehrrr...Not!
The cluttered cockpit is a remarkably poor design. Well done!
Other nice features:
1. On the CL you get three red warning lights when the TLs are retarded for descend - regardless of altitude and speed. Why, I will never know.
2. With flaps extended, you get an annoying aural gear warning horn; again, regardless of speed and altitude. Two great cry-wolf features!
3. Boeing makes you pay through the nose to connect the two onboard GPS' to the FMC. Hence, we fly on IRS/RNAV only on the CL. And, of course, on the CL you better not manually tune and use the NAV receivers: You'll end up losing P-RNAV accuracy (no GPS and no independent auto-tuning). All in the interest of flight safety, of course.
The NG is slightly improved, but is still suffering from american anti-Airbus syndrome, too many lawyers involved, and too many ultra-conservative patriotist-americans behind the drawing tables. They still haven't managed to install modern, FMC-digitally-integrated nav-/com-radios, the stall management - yaw damper computer sucks, a huge pretzl-on-a-stick protrudes up from the floor, noisy flight deck (what the hell were they thinking, installing those recirculation fans???). Then there is the rudder story, and let's not forget the new NG fuel pump location and increased risk of running dry, overheating and blowing up the entire aircraft! I could go on for ages
This is sooo much fun!
I'll give this silly "discussion" a try:
I like the Boeing 737 because you can stall and crash it anytime you like. Our aircraft also have little stickers on the thrust lever quadrant indicating, with both arrows and text, that forward movement of the TLs will increase thrust. Interesting - in case we didn't know, I suppose!
Also, I find it very useful to know whether the flaps are in the 2 deg or 25 deg position (as opposed to just 1, 2, 3 etc.). Ehrrr...Not!
The cluttered cockpit is a remarkably poor design. Well done!
Other nice features:
1. On the CL you get three red warning lights when the TLs are retarded for descend - regardless of altitude and speed. Why, I will never know.
2. With flaps extended, you get an annoying aural gear warning horn; again, regardless of speed and altitude. Two great cry-wolf features!
3. Boeing makes you pay through the nose to connect the two onboard GPS' to the FMC. Hence, we fly on IRS/RNAV only on the CL. And, of course, on the CL you better not manually tune and use the NAV receivers: You'll end up losing P-RNAV accuracy (no GPS and no independent auto-tuning). All in the interest of flight safety, of course.
The NG is slightly improved, but is still suffering from american anti-Airbus syndrome, too many lawyers involved, and too many ultra-conservative patriotist-americans behind the drawing tables. They still haven't managed to install modern, FMC-digitally-integrated nav-/com-radios, the stall management - yaw damper computer sucks, a huge pretzl-on-a-stick protrudes up from the floor, noisy flight deck (what the hell were they thinking, installing those recirculation fans???). Then there is the rudder story, and let's not forget the new NG fuel pump location and increased risk of running dry, overheating and blowing up the entire aircraft! I could go on for ages
This is sooo much fun!
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Shitosphere
Oh yess!
The Boeing is for men. Cavemen...
The 737 design is old and the NG is just a small modification of that same OLD design. It works well, but it lacks some of the great improvements modern aircraft have.
The 777 however is a completely different story. Replace the yoke with a sidestick and a table and it would be great.
The Boeing is for men. Cavemen...
The 737 design is old and the NG is just a small modification of that same OLD design. It works well, but it lacks some of the great improvements modern aircraft have.
The 777 however is a completely different story. Replace the yoke with a sidestick and a table and it would be great.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
From: Norway
Guess it might be better to buy a MS Flight Sim and a high end joystick! Put it on your desk and you´re all sett! Plenty of table space for your snacks, no rec.fan noise and that wonderful joystick
One could even get a real job and possibly well paid at that and just fly during the lunchbreak
Joke aside guys and gals! Happy Easter and good luck to all in these dire times, weather you fly real planes or Citroen´s (sorry couldn´t help myself)
One could even get a real job and possibly well paid at that and just fly during the lunchbreak
Joke aside guys and gals! Happy Easter and good luck to all in these dire times, weather you fly real planes or Citroen´s (sorry couldn´t help myself
)
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: Europe
A friend of mine who went from the 737-800 to the 320 series and then back again(due to base issues) said(when asked how it was to be flying the NG again) : "You can put a new stereo and a gps into a Volvo Amazon, but it will still be a Volvo Amazon..."
Hhmmmm......
Hhmmmm......
Last edited by Busterpilot; 7th April 2009 at 21:19.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: and let die
lurer på om noen brukere her på forumet får gleden av og sitte bak spak på den maskinen en gang
Guys,
Nothing compares to the 380 anyway.
Pork
Nothing compares to the 380 anyway.
Pork
Last edited by /385S; 10th April 2009 at 13:40.