SAS pilot strike
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Just out of curiosity, and perhaps I'm playing devils advocate here....but..
When a group goes on strike, they effectively (and very legally) collectively resign from their positions. All for one'... one or all... and all that. Seeing that this is about 100 guys, and seeing that SAS just signalled a need for further redundencies....
ummm... you guys not worried that they just might accept your collective resignation?
When a group goes on strike, they effectively (and very legally) collectively resign from their positions. All for one'... one or all... and all that. Seeing that this is about 100 guys, and seeing that SAS just signalled a need for further redundencies....
ummm... you guys not worried that they just might accept your collective resignation?
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Thats supposed to mean that they can be confined to captains positions i Sweden from now on. Why should we exert ourselves to secure captains positions for them in all SAS Airline when they are so obviously in contempt of the pilot group as a whole.
Or maybe you would like to welcome them in SAS Norway HC?
Be my guest
brgds Kingsnake
Or maybe you would like to welcome them in SAS Norway HC?
Be my guest
brgds Kingsnake
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As expected!
Good, no strike.
The lingering thought is that these individuals would be better off somewhere else. They obviously do not care about their employer and even less about their colleagues.
But, when push came to shove, they caved. Good. They will do that again.
I suggest that they close down Pilotforbundet and join SPF. Then at least they will have a chance to change their work conditions, den grønne bog.
Regards,
Ramrise
The lingering thought is that these individuals would be better off somewhere else. They obviously do not care about their employer and even less about their colleagues.
But, when push came to shove, they caved. Good. They will do that again.
I suggest that they close down Pilotforbundet and join SPF. Then at least they will have a chance to change their work conditions, den grønne bog.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Oh no..
No, we just dont agree with you.
And we expect people to live by the deals they make. That goes for ex Lin and that goes for ex Bra in Norway. And Pfor pilots as well.
Face it, there is one seniority list. And that list will determine how our career plays out. For me and for you cap10.
Regards,
Ramrise
And we expect people to live by the deals they make. That goes for ex Lin and that goes for ex Bra in Norway. And Pfor pilots as well.
Face it, there is one seniority list. And that list will determine how our career plays out. For me and for you cap10.
Regards,
Ramrise
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-Is it not true that they have lower salary for 15 years now?
Than what? Than they would have had in Linjeflyg???
-Is it not true that several of them has been retired as FO´s with about half
the retirement pay?
No. Not yet. And it will never happen either, as SPF, with their ex LIN colleagues in mind, has just changed the pension system so that a retiring FO will have a pension as if he was an FC.
-Is it not true that they get lower payment when sick then other SAS pilots?
No Definitely not. They have the same deal as everybody else.
-Is it not true that insurance and Loss of license give them far worse cover?
No. Same as above.
-Is it not true that BU pilots allready has a separate agreement with SAS?
Yes they do. That doesn't mean that SAS Pilot Unions or SAS for that sake should accept anye more of them.
-Is it not true that all SAS pilots hired before 1993 are promoted despite the need for it?
No. The need for them is (or was at least, depending on the new cost cutting actions) just around the corner.
-Is it not true that the next one in line for promotion is the first Lin guy (1315)? (And taht will take years..)
Yes. And they have a lower seniority. Big deal. And how many years it will take is just a matter of speculation.
-Is it not true that they are deprived the right to be FC on the CRJ´s?
No. Lots of the LIN guys have served as FCs on F50 and Q400 during the years. The same will go for the CRJs.
-Is it true that Pfor choosed to raise the pay 750 for just captains?
Yes, the captains got an extra pay tise of 750 SEK per month. What does thas have to do with anything at all? As if all FOs in SAS members of Pilotförbundet?
Than what? Than they would have had in Linjeflyg???
-Is it not true that several of them has been retired as FO´s with about half
the retirement pay?
No. Not yet. And it will never happen either, as SPF, with their ex LIN colleagues in mind, has just changed the pension system so that a retiring FO will have a pension as if he was an FC.
-Is it not true that they get lower payment when sick then other SAS pilots?
No Definitely not. They have the same deal as everybody else.
-Is it not true that insurance and Loss of license give them far worse cover?
No. Same as above.
-Is it not true that BU pilots allready has a separate agreement with SAS?
Yes they do. That doesn't mean that SAS Pilot Unions or SAS for that sake should accept anye more of them.
-Is it not true that all SAS pilots hired before 1993 are promoted despite the need for it?
No. The need for them is (or was at least, depending on the new cost cutting actions) just around the corner.
-Is it not true that the next one in line for promotion is the first Lin guy (1315)? (And taht will take years..)
Yes. And they have a lower seniority. Big deal. And how many years it will take is just a matter of speculation.
-Is it not true that they are deprived the right to be FC on the CRJ´s?
No. Lots of the LIN guys have served as FCs on F50 and Q400 during the years. The same will go for the CRJs.
-Is it true that Pfor choosed to raise the pay 750 for just captains?
Yes, the captains got an extra pay tise of 750 SEK per month. What does thas have to do with anything at all? As if all FOs in SAS members of Pilotförbundet?
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Facts
Killersuricate is correct.
The ex Lin guys accepted a deal in 1993 that reduced their Linjeflyg seniority by 5 years. They were then placed on Kombilisten with their "new" seniority.
In return for taking a five year seniority hit they were given a lifetime contract. In other words(as I inderstand it), they cannot be terminated, or if they are due to redundancy, SAS will have to meet pay and pension obligations for these guys until they reach age 60. Where else, but in scandinavia can you find such a setup? I work for SAS but I dont have a lifetime contract, I really would like a lifetime contract though.
Now, ever since 1993 the ex Lin guys, the Pilotforbundet pilots as well, have worked according to the rules in the grønne bog. THIS MEANS THAT EVERYBODY HAS BEEN TREATED THE SAME!!!! And think about it, Cap10lobo, Pilotforbundet wanted to strike to get their own contract. That means that they didnt have their own and that they were being treated the same as everybody else. So, there were no discrimination built into the grønne bog, their position today is solely determined by their kombiliste seniority.
Which brings us to the root problem. They got a good deal, now they want more. At the expense of the rest of us. We will not allow the hijacking of our Longhaul segment by a minority group. It will never happen.
If they really, really want to start this fight we will bring the combined strength of DPF, NSF and SPF down on these guys so hard and so fast that it will be over before you can say "Pilotforbundet".
All that I ask is that people accept and honor the deals they WILLINGLY entered into. I have absolutely no problems working with any ex Lin guy as long as he/she accepts the fact that Pfor represents SAS pilots when it comes to negotiations with the company. As a matter of fact, I have flown with many ex Lin people during my first years with the company, and guess what! We never had any problems.
One last thing, the majority of ex Lin pilots I believe, are members of SPF. Pilotforbundet is sustained by a hardcore group of dedicated, yet misguided and narrowminded people. I think that this situation came about because of 25 to 30 people and their ability to set the agenda.
Regards,
Ramrise
The ex Lin guys accepted a deal in 1993 that reduced their Linjeflyg seniority by 5 years. They were then placed on Kombilisten with their "new" seniority.
In return for taking a five year seniority hit they were given a lifetime contract. In other words(as I inderstand it), they cannot be terminated, or if they are due to redundancy, SAS will have to meet pay and pension obligations for these guys until they reach age 60. Where else, but in scandinavia can you find such a setup? I work for SAS but I dont have a lifetime contract, I really would like a lifetime contract though.
Now, ever since 1993 the ex Lin guys, the Pilotforbundet pilots as well, have worked according to the rules in the grønne bog. THIS MEANS THAT EVERYBODY HAS BEEN TREATED THE SAME!!!! And think about it, Cap10lobo, Pilotforbundet wanted to strike to get their own contract. That means that they didnt have their own and that they were being treated the same as everybody else. So, there were no discrimination built into the grønne bog, their position today is solely determined by their kombiliste seniority.
Which brings us to the root problem. They got a good deal, now they want more. At the expense of the rest of us. We will not allow the hijacking of our Longhaul segment by a minority group. It will never happen.
If they really, really want to start this fight we will bring the combined strength of DPF, NSF and SPF down on these guys so hard and so fast that it will be over before you can say "Pilotforbundet".
All that I ask is that people accept and honor the deals they WILLINGLY entered into. I have absolutely no problems working with any ex Lin guy as long as he/she accepts the fact that Pfor represents SAS pilots when it comes to negotiations with the company. As a matter of fact, I have flown with many ex Lin people during my first years with the company, and guess what! We never had any problems.
One last thing, the majority of ex Lin pilots I believe, are members of SPF. Pilotforbundet is sustained by a hardcore group of dedicated, yet misguided and narrowminded people. I think that this situation came about because of 25 to 30 people and their ability to set the agenda.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Just to set the record straight.
The Swedish pilot association, SPF (founded 1946), is party to the collective agreement with SAS. SPF is open to all swedish pilots, and is a signee of a number of agreements with most airline companies in the Swedish workplace. Every pilot in Sweden is therefore able to be a full IFALPA member.
Most ex-Linjeflyg pilots are members of SPF and have been represented on the board of SPF since the integration.
Pilotforbundet is a new organisation founded by pilots working for SAS after the integration of Linjeflyg in 1993. They have succeeded in getting collective agreements with a few startup airlines, primarily by agreeing to a lower standard of agreements.
SPF has had contacts with Pilotforbundet off and on during the years in the hope of reaching a merger of the organisations. The percieved injustices of the Linjeflyg integration have stopped any serious interest from Pilotforbundet.
The SAS pilot collective agreement is signed by three associations, one in Denmark (DPF), one in Norway (NSF) and SPF in Sweden. That agreement is valid for all pilots working in SAS regardless of affiliation.
The Swedish pilot association, SPF (founded 1946), is party to the collective agreement with SAS. SPF is open to all swedish pilots, and is a signee of a number of agreements with most airline companies in the Swedish workplace. Every pilot in Sweden is therefore able to be a full IFALPA member.
Most ex-Linjeflyg pilots are members of SPF and have been represented on the board of SPF since the integration.
Pilotforbundet is a new organisation founded by pilots working for SAS after the integration of Linjeflyg in 1993. They have succeeded in getting collective agreements with a few startup airlines, primarily by agreeing to a lower standard of agreements.
SPF has had contacts with Pilotforbundet off and on during the years in the hope of reaching a merger of the organisations. The percieved injustices of the Linjeflyg integration have stopped any serious interest from Pilotforbundet.
The SAS pilot collective agreement is signed by three associations, one in Denmark (DPF), one in Norway (NSF) and SPF in Sweden. That agreement is valid for all pilots working in SAS regardless of affiliation.
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Say what..
You guys are truly the essence of why pilots can not be strong, united and cooperate. And please dont give me that crap about that PF are the ones to blame here. If you treat people like ****, they will not thank you and become your friends, verry simple!
Sprinter says..
"They have succeeded in getting collective agreements with a few startup airlines, primarily by agreeing to a lower standard of agreements. "
This is simply a lie. All PF agreements are of a good european and scandinavian standard. And in a lot of cases much better than Pfor offers in their. Pfor´s own agreemant with SAS gives a newly hired pilot (If there will ever be one..) a much lower income (about 10000Sek/1000€ per month) that other airlines who have an agreement with pilotforbundet pay their new FO´s. Why?
Probably sprinter and most of the "old" guys dont care as long as they get their own good standards. We have seen this before. A and B teams. Agreed upon by the A team, getting moore on behalf of the others.
Simple "me myself and I" filosophy from the priviledged ones.
Sprinter says..
"They have succeeded in getting collective agreements with a few startup airlines, primarily by agreeing to a lower standard of agreements. "
This is simply a lie. All PF agreements are of a good european and scandinavian standard. And in a lot of cases much better than Pfor offers in their. Pfor´s own agreemant with SAS gives a newly hired pilot (If there will ever be one..) a much lower income (about 10000Sek/1000€ per month) that other airlines who have an agreement with pilotforbundet pay their new FO´s. Why?
Probably sprinter and most of the "old" guys dont care as long as they get their own good standards. We have seen this before. A and B teams. Agreed upon by the A team, getting moore on behalf of the others.
Simple "me myself and I" filosophy from the priviledged ones.
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???
Dear HC,
A wild guess on my part: you are ex BU and do not like the deal that was negotiated back in 2004??
Well, IF that is the case I highly recommend that you leave your curent union and join NSF. They are a much better outfit
Regards,
Ramrise
A wild guess on my part: you are ex BU and do not like the deal that was negotiated back in 2004??
Well, IF that is the case I highly recommend that you leave your curent union and join NSF. They are a much better outfit
Regards,
Ramrise
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Black and white, or not???
HC,
Of course, nothing is THAT clear cut.
Everybody needs to step back and ask themselves: What if??
In these two cases, Lin and Bu, the likely outcome for the smaller companies would have been bankruptcy. That didnt happen(good for you both), but now the rest of the group(Pfor) is faced with demands that sometimes seem somewhat inflated and unbalanced.
When the integration deals were negotiated, and this sounds harsh, it was the best deal that could be had for both sides. Or what??? Those who didnt like the deal had the chance to leave(some did following the Lin integration). IF you chose to stay that implies that on some level you accept the outcome and move on. Just like if I dont like the current situation I can actually chose to resign from the company!! Will I?? Not likely, and thereby I also accept my situation and this in turn, at least for me, stops me from bitching and moaning about things and circumstances that I cannot change.
Pfor pilots have no inherent ill will against either Lin or Bu pilots. It is however bred by the endless whining of grown men in charge of their own destiny, but men who do not have the cojones to follow their convictions. They choose to benefit from the deals negotiated by Pfor, yet at the same time they use that as a platform from which to attack Pfor. They sit in our midst and wage an endless battle they will never win. I dont understand it!!!
These days individuals are ingrained with a sense of entitlement(I DESERVE THIS, IT IS MY RIGHT GODDANMED). How did it come to this? I only deserve what my number can give me. Its that simple my friends!!!!
We were all placed on the Kombilist by some sort of formula or key, we CANNOT change that key now. That would undermine the whole system and affect 2000 pilots.
Regards,
Ramrise
Of course, nothing is THAT clear cut.
Everybody needs to step back and ask themselves: What if??
In these two cases, Lin and Bu, the likely outcome for the smaller companies would have been bankruptcy. That didnt happen(good for you both), but now the rest of the group(Pfor) is faced with demands that sometimes seem somewhat inflated and unbalanced.
When the integration deals were negotiated, and this sounds harsh, it was the best deal that could be had for both sides. Or what??? Those who didnt like the deal had the chance to leave(some did following the Lin integration). IF you chose to stay that implies that on some level you accept the outcome and move on. Just like if I dont like the current situation I can actually chose to resign from the company!! Will I?? Not likely, and thereby I also accept my situation and this in turn, at least for me, stops me from bitching and moaning about things and circumstances that I cannot change.
Pfor pilots have no inherent ill will against either Lin or Bu pilots. It is however bred by the endless whining of grown men in charge of their own destiny, but men who do not have the cojones to follow their convictions. They choose to benefit from the deals negotiated by Pfor, yet at the same time they use that as a platform from which to attack Pfor. They sit in our midst and wage an endless battle they will never win. I dont understand it!!!
These days individuals are ingrained with a sense of entitlement(I DESERVE THIS, IT IS MY RIGHT GODDANMED). How did it come to this? I only deserve what my number can give me. Its that simple my friends!!!!
We were all placed on the Kombilist by some sort of formula or key, we CANNOT change that key now. That would undermine the whole system and affect 2000 pilots.
Regards,
Ramrise
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I guess that cap10lobo here is part of PF and like all others I met from PF is not verry truthfull when it comes to the agreements with other companys than SAS. They only have agreemnts with two companys to date, Nordic Airways and FlyNordic(norwegian.se), Novair threw the out
and compared to all other Scadinavian and other European companys they have much lower sallarys...
and compared to all other Scadinavian and other European companys they have much lower sallarys...
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Do you guys really consider "take it or leave it" to be the same as willingly? Come on! Don´t disqualify yourselves from the discussion like that.
But don't pretend it to be any different for you than for the rest of us.
And stop discouragiging all others, HC. Maybe you'll learn something new if you stop pretending everybody else are no-brainers.
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Hej Hotel Charlie
You forget to comment on whether you are looking forward to welcoming the next 50 captains in SAS Norge from ex-LIN.
You also forgot to comment on the fact that Braathens was bankrupt. Oh right - I nearly forgot. That´s a dirty PFOR lie as well.
Check this out:
http://www.sasgroup.net/SASGROUP_IR/...Braathens1.pdf
page 14, ande others similar:
Bakgrunn
Braathens er i en svært vanskelig finansiell stilling. Etter
å ha lidd betydelige tap de siste par år (rundt NOK 2 milliarder
i perioden 1998 til 2000), er Braganza, Bramora,
KLM og Braathens av den oppfatning at Braathens ikke
er en levedyktig virksomhet på selvstendig basis.
That´s management language for "BANKRUPT"
enjoy your sunday
brgds Kingsnake
You forget to comment on whether you are looking forward to welcoming the next 50 captains in SAS Norge from ex-LIN.
You also forgot to comment on the fact that Braathens was bankrupt. Oh right - I nearly forgot. That´s a dirty PFOR lie as well.
Check this out:
http://www.sasgroup.net/SASGROUP_IR/...Braathens1.pdf
page 14, ande others similar:
Bakgrunn
Braathens er i en svært vanskelig finansiell stilling. Etter
å ha lidd betydelige tap de siste par år (rundt NOK 2 milliarder
i perioden 1998 til 2000), er Braganza, Bramora,
KLM og Braathens av den oppfatning at Braathens ikke
er en levedyktig virksomhet på selvstendig basis.
That´s management language for "BANKRUPT"
enjoy your sunday
brgds Kingsnake
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So right!
Sign the deal or loose your job!
Is that a "deal" whatsoever?
You might actually hate it but since the larger group is threatening you about loosing your job (These were times when we did not even have any competition at all, the government still decided on airfares!?!) And now they are happily flying that production without hesitation.
SPF/DPF/NSF has ruled every aspect of work without any consideration of others or consequences in the future for decades now. They use fear and intimidation untill everybody is in line..
Is thet someone you want to call acolleague or friend? Shame on them!
Is that a "deal" whatsoever?
You might actually hate it but since the larger group is threatening you about loosing your job (These were times when we did not even have any competition at all, the government still decided on airfares!?!) And now they are happily flying that production without hesitation.
SPF/DPF/NSF has ruled every aspect of work without any consideration of others or consequences in the future for decades now. They use fear and intimidation untill everybody is in line..
Is thet someone you want to call acolleague or friend? Shame on them!
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obviously not enough intimidation - you don´t seem to be in line.. yet.
Now quit moaning before we really get pissed at you.
You just want more money. Your not going to get it. What part of that don´t you understand?
As for your pathetic stories - they are becoming more boring by the minute.
Why don´t you leave SAS. You´ll do us all a favour.
Now quit moaning before we really get pissed at you.
You just want more money. Your not going to get it. What part of that don´t you understand?
As for your pathetic stories - they are becoming more boring by the minute.
Why don´t you leave SAS. You´ll do us all a favour.