SAS/Braathens piloter
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Empati and all other ex-BU pilots.
You need to define your goals and then decide which setting will give you the best chance og acheiving those goals.
I presume that your goals are to avoid firings and demotions for the captains. Theese are legitimate goals. We can make a deal on areas like this. You may of course have other goals, like separating SASBU from SAS. That is an illegitimate goal. We will never make any deals on that line.
Now why is it that you wont make a deal with us giving us what we want in return for what you want?
As Ramrise pointed out a total reshuffle of the kombilist is completely impossible. The danger of the list collapsing is to great. The implications are hundreds of typechanges. It makes no sense.
From what I hear the situation in SASBU will shortly lead to demotions and firings - and who will suffer: ex-BU. Will we help you if you stay outside? No. Will we help you if you join the club?. Of course.
There are no BU or SAS pilots anymore. There are only SASBU pilots. There will be only one negotiation. Anything else is a total suck-up to management and it won´t happen. We are not 2000 pilots. We are 3500 pilots in the SAS group. We can deliver more carrots and sticks to management just by talking than you can in a full blown strike.
Close down BSF/SBF. Join NSF. Join the list at minus 5. Continue being employed and avoid uncontrolled demotions. Fly L/H.
Continue with BSF. Experience 50 firings and 50 demotions. Screw up your own company. Never fly L/H.
What´s taking you so long?????
Join the club
You need to define your goals and then decide which setting will give you the best chance og acheiving those goals.
I presume that your goals are to avoid firings and demotions for the captains. Theese are legitimate goals. We can make a deal on areas like this. You may of course have other goals, like separating SASBU from SAS. That is an illegitimate goal. We will never make any deals on that line.
Now why is it that you wont make a deal with us giving us what we want in return for what you want?
As Ramrise pointed out a total reshuffle of the kombilist is completely impossible. The danger of the list collapsing is to great. The implications are hundreds of typechanges. It makes no sense.
From what I hear the situation in SASBU will shortly lead to demotions and firings - and who will suffer: ex-BU. Will we help you if you stay outside? No. Will we help you if you join the club?. Of course.
There are no BU or SAS pilots anymore. There are only SASBU pilots. There will be only one negotiation. Anything else is a total suck-up to management and it won´t happen. We are not 2000 pilots. We are 3500 pilots in the SAS group. We can deliver more carrots and sticks to management just by talking than you can in a full blown strike.
Close down BSF/SBF. Join NSF. Join the list at minus 5. Continue being employed and avoid uncontrolled demotions. Fly L/H.
Continue with BSF. Experience 50 firings and 50 demotions. Screw up your own company. Never fly L/H.
What´s taking you so long?????
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In or out?
I am in total agreement with Kingsnake.
If the signals really are accurate and management is getting ready to act, I for one, would much rather be facing that situation with a number on the kombilist. Even if that number reflects minus 5 years. Should the worst happen and it comes to lay-offs, certain rights apply when being laid-off from the kombilist. You keep your number and have the right to rehire in seniority order. The present situation for the ex BU guys is dicey at best. What will happen when the BU contract expires next year? Will it be a case of personally negotiating ones conditions? What if there's too many pilots in SASBU? Who takes the punches? And more importantly, under what conditions will they take the punches?
If you join the list we will protect you as we have everybody else. We will do everything we can to ensure your employment. There are no absolute guarantees anymore. They are simply too expensive. But we can guareantee that you will not be laid-off as part of a company plan to squeeze the pilot group. That is the strength of the big group. Which WE already have. If you join that group you will benefit from it. Even with a 5 year reduction.
There is no directed effort from the SAS Pfor aimed at the BU pilots. We have not and will target the people we have to work with someday. What we are trying to do is ensure the longevity of our group by making it bigger. And that includes the BU pilots.
Regards,
Ramrise
If the signals really are accurate and management is getting ready to act, I for one, would much rather be facing that situation with a number on the kombilist. Even if that number reflects minus 5 years. Should the worst happen and it comes to lay-offs, certain rights apply when being laid-off from the kombilist. You keep your number and have the right to rehire in seniority order. The present situation for the ex BU guys is dicey at best. What will happen when the BU contract expires next year? Will it be a case of personally negotiating ones conditions? What if there's too many pilots in SASBU? Who takes the punches? And more importantly, under what conditions will they take the punches?
If you join the list we will protect you as we have everybody else. We will do everything we can to ensure your employment. There are no absolute guarantees anymore. They are simply too expensive. But we can guareantee that you will not be laid-off as part of a company plan to squeeze the pilot group. That is the strength of the big group. Which WE already have. If you join that group you will benefit from it. Even with a 5 year reduction.
There is no directed effort from the SAS Pfor aimed at the BU pilots. We have not and will target the people we have to work with someday. What we are trying to do is ensure the longevity of our group by making it bigger. And that includes the BU pilots.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Kingsnake and Ramrise!
" I have a dream!"
" I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream."
I have a dream that one day this company will rise up and live out the true meaning of Jansens Words: We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal. "I Have a dream!"
OK, Jansen did not say it that elegantly, but it illustrates how BU-pilots feel about the -5.
But K. and R. - point taken! You made me think! I feel sometimes that I have my back up to the wall, with no way out! Surtainly, job security and positions is what we want to protect. But if it comes down to what you illustrates and SBF finds this the only way to protect members, then we'll join you.
Pfor is running the game here, and therefor has the greatest responsibility. As a result they should take the initiativ and meet SBF/BU- pilots with all the options, learn from SBF lawyers, find the common denominators, and not leave before a solution is on the floor!
Darn it! We all deserve it now! This has gone on much to long!
Regards.
Empati
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Empati
The door is open at NSF - our Norwegian friends. Reach a deal with them and we will support it. I look forward to flying with you on longhaul and to helping you make sure that no layoffs take place. Regarding the issue of Captains you must work that out with your fellow NSF pilots in SASBU. Some kind of parity between the groups must be reached and the kombilist respected at the same time. I´m sure it can be done but I´m also sure that time is running out.
Best regards
The door is open at NSF - our Norwegian friends. Reach a deal with them and we will support it. I look forward to flying with you on longhaul and to helping you make sure that no layoffs take place. Regarding the issue of Captains you must work that out with your fellow NSF pilots in SASBU. Some kind of parity between the groups must be reached and the kombilist respected at the same time. I´m sure it can be done but I´m also sure that time is running out.
Best regards
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As I said; "Every now and then there is some sense and logic in what Ramrise is writing".
Just want to add one small detail. The SAS management can not choose to negotiate only with one pilotgroup. They can do so in Sweden, but not iaw. Norwegian law. And remember ex-BU agreement is valid until a new one is signed, and I believe it will take most of next year before this will happen.....
Just want to add one small detail. The SAS management can not choose to negotiate only with one pilotgroup. They can do so in Sweden, but not iaw. Norwegian law. And remember ex-BU agreement is valid until a new one is signed, and I believe it will take most of next year before this will happen.....
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Kingsnake and Ramrise, Y' all keep beating that dead dog!!
The SAS group had two norwegian jet opperators they decided to merger: Scandinavian Airlines norway and Braathens. Norwegian labour law applies in such a case. One of the things it describes is how to deal with senoirity. That is how the NFL list has come about. With out a doubt morally the right way of doing it to.
PFOR screwing LIN, Commuter and the famous 350 is not very impressing for a labour union. We are supposed to help each other aren' t we? Doing the same mistake again will not make it any better. K and R what do you want to do to the WF guys once they are merged, which might just happen? What if LH buys us all should you take -5 and the rest of us a total of -10? Get real guys!
The only way we can become a force to recon with is by undoing the wrong, treating each other as equalls and with respect. Why would management respect us when we apperently don' t respect each other? They' re laughing all the way to the bank dudes!
The tale about it beeing too costly to undo the wrong does not fly! It does not have to be done overnight. It can be done over several years and if you want to protect Long Haul from us for a while, please do so. But making us permanent A, B and C groups? Forget it!
Guys you are intelligent! Don' t make us look bad OK!
The SAS group had two norwegian jet opperators they decided to merger: Scandinavian Airlines norway and Braathens. Norwegian labour law applies in such a case. One of the things it describes is how to deal with senoirity. That is how the NFL list has come about. With out a doubt morally the right way of doing it to.
PFOR screwing LIN, Commuter and the famous 350 is not very impressing for a labour union. We are supposed to help each other aren' t we? Doing the same mistake again will not make it any better. K and R what do you want to do to the WF guys once they are merged, which might just happen? What if LH buys us all should you take -5 and the rest of us a total of -10? Get real guys!
The only way we can become a force to recon with is by undoing the wrong, treating each other as equalls and with respect. Why would management respect us when we apperently don' t respect each other? They' re laughing all the way to the bank dudes!
The tale about it beeing too costly to undo the wrong does not fly! It does not have to be done overnight. It can be done over several years and if you want to protect Long Haul from us for a while, please do so. But making us permanent A, B and C groups? Forget it!
Guys you are intelligent! Don' t make us look bad OK!
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What I can't understand is why you look at -5 years as being screwed?
My rights according to the combilist are a value to me that I have earned by being on it since I started in SAS. And now you want in on the list without paying anything? That seems not right to me, and that is why I think it is only fear to subtract minus 5 years. Not to screw anybody
Now you will say that you brought production with you into the company and that is the reason for feeling -5 years is not right. I don't see you are bringing a lot of production. We were flying most of your destinations before SAS bought BRA. Then we stopped many of them to stop competing, and now you are bringing it back to us? That is not what I call bringing production into the company.
And another thing. You keep on arguing that SASBRA is a merger of two Norwegian companies and must be treated as that. “Screw all the Danes and Swedes.” Well that is our company’s way of trying to break apart a strong pilot union, Pfor, and you applaud it in every way. That is very short-sighted. You think this is what will do you best this time, without thinking any further down the road. We are standing together to be strong and stop any internal competition. So we have been opposed to the separation of the three countries all the time. And when you take the managements side in this matter, it is not strange that we have ended up like we have.
My rights according to the combilist are a value to me that I have earned by being on it since I started in SAS. And now you want in on the list without paying anything? That seems not right to me, and that is why I think it is only fear to subtract minus 5 years. Not to screw anybody
Now you will say that you brought production with you into the company and that is the reason for feeling -5 years is not right. I don't see you are bringing a lot of production. We were flying most of your destinations before SAS bought BRA. Then we stopped many of them to stop competing, and now you are bringing it back to us? That is not what I call bringing production into the company.
And another thing. You keep on arguing that SASBRA is a merger of two Norwegian companies and must be treated as that. “Screw all the Danes and Swedes.” Well that is our company’s way of trying to break apart a strong pilot union, Pfor, and you applaud it in every way. That is very short-sighted. You think this is what will do you best this time, without thinking any further down the road. We are standing together to be strong and stop any internal competition. So we have been opposed to the separation of the three countries all the time. And when you take the managements side in this matter, it is not strange that we have ended up like we have.
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I think both you SK-guys and BU-guys are missing a central point here: The deal is already done.
The BU guys will never get access to long haul. The BU-guys will never gey access to FC-positions in DK and SE.
If there are surplus of pilots in, IC SE and DK-part og SAS, the BU-guys will not be touched by it. If there are a surplus of pilots in SKBU, the BU-guys will be hit extremely hard. And they can not expect any help from SK.
And the BU-guys will never get minus 5 years on the kombilist. Because they're not on it.
Yes, SAS Braathens is a merger Braathens and SAS NO. And the norwegian SK-pilots have, and will always have their rights for positions in SE and DK, as all swedes and danes have acces to the FC-positions in SKBU.
What BSF tried to do was to rip off the norwegian SK-pilots their rights in the rest of the SAS system, and the Swedish and Danish pilots' rights in Norway. "Norway for Norwegians" That's the "Apartheid" regime. You did not succeed in that.
On the contrary: This maneuvre has made Pfor even stronger and more determined to take control over the future, and make BSF a parenthesis in the SAS pilot unions' history.
You will keep your rights as laid down in trepartsavtalen. And nothing more.
The BU guys will never get access to long haul. The BU-guys will never gey access to FC-positions in DK and SE.
If there are surplus of pilots in, IC SE and DK-part og SAS, the BU-guys will not be touched by it. If there are a surplus of pilots in SKBU, the BU-guys will be hit extremely hard. And they can not expect any help from SK.
And the BU-guys will never get minus 5 years on the kombilist. Because they're not on it.
Yes, SAS Braathens is a merger Braathens and SAS NO. And the norwegian SK-pilots have, and will always have their rights for positions in SE and DK, as all swedes and danes have acces to the FC-positions in SKBU.
What BSF tried to do was to rip off the norwegian SK-pilots their rights in the rest of the SAS system, and the Swedish and Danish pilots' rights in Norway. "Norway for Norwegians" That's the "Apartheid" regime. You did not succeed in that.
On the contrary: This maneuvre has made Pfor even stronger and more determined to take control over the future, and make BSF a parenthesis in the SAS pilot unions' history.
You will keep your rights as laid down in trepartsavtalen. And nothing more.
Last edited by OffCourse; 3rd Oct 2005 at 06:31.
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Offcourse,
you are correctly describing the situation as of today. It is, however, not the ideal situation for any of us.
If desired we could come to a new agreement. We just have to want to, all of us.
The object of Pfor is to strengthen the pilot group. We are experiencing tremendeous pressure all the time and the only way we can withstand it is to be big and strong. The BU pilots might feel wanted and pampered for the time being. If however PJ needs to, he will walk all over them. One thing I have learned, management is your friend if they stand to gain something, or if they need something. The minute you become a thorn in their side, well too bad...
The only thing they understand is leverage and we have it. If we get another 350 members we will have even more. For the good of all members.
Regards,
Ramrise
you are correctly describing the situation as of today. It is, however, not the ideal situation for any of us.
If desired we could come to a new agreement. We just have to want to, all of us.
The object of Pfor is to strengthen the pilot group. We are experiencing tremendeous pressure all the time and the only way we can withstand it is to be big and strong. The BU pilots might feel wanted and pampered for the time being. If however PJ needs to, he will walk all over them. One thing I have learned, management is your friend if they stand to gain something, or if they need something. The minute you become a thorn in their side, well too bad...
The only thing they understand is leverage and we have it. If we get another 350 members we will have even more. For the good of all members.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Hi again Ramrise!
You see we do agree! Let us in as equalls. Non of this penalty business and we will be stronger! Might even be: " strongest there is"!
Anyways a good weekend all!
You see we do agree! Let us in as equalls. Non of this penalty business and we will be stronger! Might even be: " strongest there is"!
Anyways a good weekend all!
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Hotel Charlie,
In all seriousness, we are equalls. No doubt about it. This has nothing to do with worth or equality. The five years are not meant as an insult. They are the price as we see it, anybody would have to pay to join the list.
Regards,
Ramrise
In all seriousness, we are equalls. No doubt about it. This has nothing to do with worth or equality. The five years are not meant as an insult. They are the price as we see it, anybody would have to pay to join the list.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Ramrise I beg to differ!
For the sake of argument lets look at it from your point of view. You claim there is and must be a price. In a normal business transaction both the buyer and seller need to agree on the price before there can be any transaction! If not, the buyer will go elswere.
If you can come up with something sellable just maybe. But the price can not be something that we will have to pay for the rest of our careers. I'm sure you can understand that. Keep the longH for yourselfs for x-amout of years if you want, but a permanent B- and even C- team will never fly!
For the sake of argument lets look at it from your point of view. You claim there is and must be a price. In a normal business transaction both the buyer and seller need to agree on the price before there can be any transaction! If not, the buyer will go elswere.
If you can come up with something sellable just maybe. But the price can not be something that we will have to pay for the rest of our careers. I'm sure you can understand that. Keep the longH for yourselfs for x-amout of years if you want, but a permanent B- and even C- team will never fly!
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HC, you say that if you guys don't get what you want, you'll be looking elsewhere.....
A couple of facts....:
The issuance of the SASBraathens AOC is partially based on the agreement that the pilot unions will strive to agree on ONE union (tre-partsavtalen)...
If you guys leave NF and join YS, the foundation for the new AOC is gone, and the authorities will probably revoke it - where does that leave you guys...? In a rather cold and lonely place, is my guess....
I'm not much of a poker player myself, but I surely know better than to bet my future on a lousy hand.....
Maybe it's time to get rid of the legal assistance that keep preaching about "rights according to the law", and consider the fact that you are actually joining a much larger company of pilots, co-workers that you'll be sharing the cockpit with for the rest of your career.
You've tried to beat us - maybe it's time to join us instead..?
A couple of facts....:
The issuance of the SASBraathens AOC is partially based on the agreement that the pilot unions will strive to agree on ONE union (tre-partsavtalen)...
If you guys leave NF and join YS, the foundation for the new AOC is gone, and the authorities will probably revoke it - where does that leave you guys...? In a rather cold and lonely place, is my guess....
I'm not much of a poker player myself, but I surely know better than to bet my future on a lousy hand.....
Maybe it's time to get rid of the legal assistance that keep preaching about "rights according to the law", and consider the fact that you are actually joining a much larger company of pilots, co-workers that you'll be sharing the cockpit with for the rest of your career.
You've tried to beat us - maybe it's time to join us instead..?
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Wiskey,
pharmair actually has a valid point.
As I am sure you know serious doubt about the integration already exists. If this continues I can imagine LFV pulling the AOC and leaving PJ and DFP in deep trouble. Of course, from my personal view this wouldn't exactly ruin my day as it would further strengthen the platform I stand on.
I still find it amazing that the authorities accepted the idea of a seperate AOC(from a flight safety standpoint) as our operation is based on a centralized flight department with established procedures and lines of command.
In any case, I am still hopeful that we will see a solution before too long.
Regards,
Ramrise
pharmair actually has a valid point.
As I am sure you know serious doubt about the integration already exists. If this continues I can imagine LFV pulling the AOC and leaving PJ and DFP in deep trouble. Of course, from my personal view this wouldn't exactly ruin my day as it would further strengthen the platform I stand on.
I still find it amazing that the authorities accepted the idea of a seperate AOC(from a flight safety standpoint) as our operation is based on a centralized flight department with established procedures and lines of command.
In any case, I am still hopeful that we will see a solution before too long.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Still, I do not agree. The real world does not work that way. There will be problems both for the company as well as for the unions, but you will not solve one problem with another, and the LVF will not solve it for you....
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I think it is time for the big boys to sit down and compare notes. Forget about layers and Norwegian legislation for a moment and focus on something more important.
Show up with a list of what You wish for and what You can live with and then compare notes.
At this stage I see a solution as more important than what´s actually in it!
If we as a group hope to withstand the immense pressure on our CLA we simply need a common platform.
If we keep playing JL´s game of divide and conquer, being concerned about who has the oil and who has the fierce european competition, we will surely loose that battle.
One pilot group, one AOC, one CLA, the only way we can all win in the long run.
Regards
Heavydane
Show up with a list of what You wish for and what You can live with and then compare notes.
At this stage I see a solution as more important than what´s actually in it!
If we as a group hope to withstand the immense pressure on our CLA we simply need a common platform.
If we keep playing JL´s game of divide and conquer, being concerned about who has the oil and who has the fierce european competition, we will surely loose that battle.
One pilot group, one AOC, one CLA, the only way we can all win in the long run.
Regards
Heavydane
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Heavydane!
Amen!!
I agree with you on this point! We need to unite forces and turn this company around ASAP. I can feel the draft of the divide behind me. Only if we put our two ropes together will it be long enough to get us to safe ground.
Regards,
Empati
I agree with you on this point! We need to unite forces and turn this company around ASAP. I can feel the draft of the divide behind me. Only if we put our two ropes together will it be long enough to get us to safe ground.
Regards,
Empati
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well....
Heavydane,
the funny thing is that all we ever wanted is what you listed in your post. -- One pilot group, one AOC, one CLA. We dont disagree about any of that. However, so far our perception is that the BU pilots have done all they can to get around that. And PJ carries alot of the blame since he has promised these guys some things that WE bought and paid for in 'trepartsaftalen'. That is why we will never accept any other outcome than the one we wanted. To be the only 'negotiation part' in the SK companies.
Regards,
Ramrise
the funny thing is that all we ever wanted is what you listed in your post. -- One pilot group, one AOC, one CLA. We dont disagree about any of that. However, so far our perception is that the BU pilots have done all they can to get around that. And PJ carries alot of the blame since he has promised these guys some things that WE bought and paid for in 'trepartsaftalen'. That is why we will never accept any other outcome than the one we wanted. To be the only 'negotiation part' in the SK companies.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Ramrise,
I agree 100% on Your position with regards to a done deal (trepartsaftalen). If any one believes that they can bypass that deal they have not realised what they are up against!
That said, the point I am trying to make is that this is 2005 and we need to re evaluate how to reach an agreement on a common seniority list. Things did look different in 2001 but we both know that we missed that train for a number of reasons, one being pi.. poor leadership in the union!
If we reach a different agreement with ex BU, I am aware that some will use that to try to improve their one personal standing, but as I stated above a deal is a deal.
Failure is not an option. If we do not unite, this dog and pony show conducted by JL and his lackeys can only go in one direction, DOWN!
Regards,
Heavydane
I agree 100% on Your position with regards to a done deal (trepartsaftalen). If any one believes that they can bypass that deal they have not realised what they are up against!
That said, the point I am trying to make is that this is 2005 and we need to re evaluate how to reach an agreement on a common seniority list. Things did look different in 2001 but we both know that we missed that train for a number of reasons, one being pi.. poor leadership in the union!
If we reach a different agreement with ex BU, I am aware that some will use that to try to improve their one personal standing, but as I stated above a deal is a deal.
Failure is not an option. If we do not unite, this dog and pony show conducted by JL and his lackeys can only go in one direction, DOWN!
Regards,
Heavydane