SAS/Braathens piloter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: On the sunny side of the street
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The furlough monster is about to strike - BU Captain downgrades and BU pilot layoffs. The company will never give you the same deal as Liniefly. Your only hope is the SAS pilots. Send your application to join at minus 5 or experience the consequenses of being dropped by management as they make at deal with the big guys. If your join weŽll protect you. If you donŽt youŽre on your own. Wake up. Time is running out fast.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: norway
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a question; I know of the Linjeflyg-deal (-5 years), but is there any similar deal ever made anywhere ???? I myself would never ever accepted such a ridicules offer.
As earlier mentioned, mergers are done somewhere every year, and they have today one common denominator; the lists are done per date of employment, however sometimes with limitations valid for a period of time. As I understand, the -5 year-deal will stay valid until you retire -stupid!
The SK and BU pilots have the same experience (B737), the pilots been in the airline industri 10-40 years, talk the same language, the same background/culture, majority the same colour of skin and now even have the same management and STILL CAN NOT GET TO AN AGREEMENT ! Come on, all of you !! This is stupidity!!!!!! Other pilotgroups have handled this challenge as professionals, not as amateurs! Shame on you!
And one more thing; I have heard the BU guys are considering exiting the Norwegian Pilotunion, and join the Norwegian labour union in order to have an absolute negotiation-right i.a.w. the Norwegian law of labour. This because the Pfor wants to negotiate on behalf of all pilots. If this happens, all of you will bee loosers!!!
As earlier mentioned, mergers are done somewhere every year, and they have today one common denominator; the lists are done per date of employment, however sometimes with limitations valid for a period of time. As I understand, the -5 year-deal will stay valid until you retire -stupid!
The SK and BU pilots have the same experience (B737), the pilots been in the airline industri 10-40 years, talk the same language, the same background/culture, majority the same colour of skin and now even have the same management and STILL CAN NOT GET TO AN AGREEMENT ! Come on, all of you !! This is stupidity!!!!!! Other pilotgroups have handled this challenge as professionals, not as amateurs! Shame on you!
And one more thing; I have heard the BU guys are considering exiting the Norwegian Pilotunion, and join the Norwegian labour union in order to have an absolute negotiation-right i.a.w. the Norwegian law of labour. This because the Pfor wants to negotiate on behalf of all pilots. If this happens, all of you will bee loosers!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moss
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kingsnake!
I think you underestimate the situation. The management is fully awear of norwegian medias power and norwegian public view of this case. That has been proven countless times before. Taking that path would curtainly be the end of SAS. Norwegian would get several highly motivated employees. But believe me Kingsnake, I understand your frustration. It's a good pilot skill to be able to see several ways out...
Regards,
Empati
Regards,
Empati
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 'price' a simple political, and fair, part of this complex situation. We both know that whenever two lists merge one part stands to gain something, in this case you. That is not free. You can, according to me, bid longhaul and you will a part of the pilot group which means that we will protect you.
There is only one way to get out of this mess and that is to fix the unright youŽve done to the LIN and the Commuter pilots and get rid of the B-scale and we can all be equall and the strong force we need to be!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picture this: A company goes bankrupt, leaving all their employees to apply for work elsewhere. They get jobs in various companies starting with no seniority. Everyone is happy.
Then there is BU. Getting merged with SAS, probably one of the best airlines in the world to work for. Excellent salary, excellent roster, you can live where you want and all kinds of benefits.
Despite this, you still complaint. Just out of curiousity: Do you know how pilots are being treated in the rest of the world?
Then there is BU. Getting merged with SAS, probably one of the best airlines in the world to work for. Excellent salary, excellent roster, you can live where you want and all kinds of benefits.
Despite this, you still complaint. Just out of curiousity: Do you know how pilots are being treated in the rest of the world?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moss
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Answeres!
1. Excellent salary - we had a excellent salary from before!
2. Excellent roster - we had a better roster from before!
3. You could live where you want - we could before + we had/has 3 bases in Norway. (The last SAS girls/guys may soon enjoy!)
4. All kinds of benefits - we had plenty of benefits.
5. You complain - we do complain about SAS roster. We would never have accepted such uneaqual terms for our members. Otherwise we don't complain much. Infact we agree on most. You now perfectly well what the disagreement is about, and it is not working conditions.
6. Rest of the world - we have thousands of flying hours flying out there "in the rest of the world" in other airlines.
The point is; we where fat and happy working for Braathens S.A.F.E. We had a FANTASTIC work enviroment. Therefor flying for SASBraathens (or SAS if you want) is not a step up like you think. But when that is said, we have allways had respect for SAS, and we are proud to be a part of it today.
Regards,
Empati
2. Excellent roster - we had a better roster from before!
3. You could live where you want - we could before + we had/has 3 bases in Norway. (The last SAS girls/guys may soon enjoy!)
4. All kinds of benefits - we had plenty of benefits.
5. You complain - we do complain about SAS roster. We would never have accepted such uneaqual terms for our members. Otherwise we don't complain much. Infact we agree on most. You now perfectly well what the disagreement is about, and it is not working conditions.
6. Rest of the world - we have thousands of flying hours flying out there "in the rest of the world" in other airlines.
The point is; we where fat and happy working for Braathens S.A.F.E. We had a FANTASTIC work enviroment. Therefor flying for SASBraathens (or SAS if you want) is not a step up like you think. But when that is said, we have allways had respect for SAS, and we are proud to be a part of it today.
Regards,
Empati
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moss
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forgetting?
Stop refering to hypotetical theories! In a hopeless bankrupt company the employees would be laid off. Nobody was laid off!!!
Call your lawyer, and he will tell you what the rights of these employees are according to norwegian law.
Yes, BU had a net debt of one billion (milliard) krones, but that was from one thing only; one year competing on OSL-ARN route. P... off SAS! The route was laid down, improve 800 was taking effect, and 6 mnds later BU earned 800 mill!
Yes, they could have laid down the company and let SAS take over. A SAS on it's knees. What would have happend? EVEN MORE outcry in the media! The SAS Concern new this. In addition a bigger, stronger "Norwegian" would have begun, and we would have had a new Sabena, Swissair, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff.....
Regard,
Empati
Call your lawyer, and he will tell you what the rights of these employees are according to norwegian law.
Yes, BU had a net debt of one billion (milliard) krones, but that was from one thing only; one year competing on OSL-ARN route. P... off SAS! The route was laid down, improve 800 was taking effect, and 6 mnds later BU earned 800 mill!
Yes, they could have laid down the company and let SAS take over. A SAS on it's knees. What would have happend? EVEN MORE outcry in the media! The SAS Concern new this. In addition a bigger, stronger "Norwegian" would have begun, and we would have had a new Sabena, Swissair, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff.....
Regard,
Empati
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You now perfectly well what the disagreement is about, and it is not working conditions.
Yes, but your company was bankrupt!! You keep forgetting that. You have to compare with the option of applying for jobs elsewhere. Not what you used to have.
I understand that you get a upset with loosing your seniority. But my personal view is that you are GIVEN seniority in another company, and thus not loosing it all. When (not if) SAS starts sacking people again, it is unfair to the SAS pilots with low seniority that they get sacked before some of the BU pilots. Nobody can make that sound reasonable.
Have I misunderstood? Then, enlighten me
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moss
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clacker - facts is facts! But you can say that BU allways has lived on SAS mercy, at least during the days of pax bonuses. The fact is that SAS bought BU to survive. Time will show!
RYR - remember that this is a merger, not a takeover. Therefor equal rights should rule. SAS unions said -5 years, lower pay and furloughs at BU. They furloughed 350 pilots before the merger. That's history! What happends now is up to them. BU pilots are not hired in SAS, but in SASBraathens. We have no rights in SAS. Why should we then lay off because of bad business in SAS in Sweden or Danmark. If they give , we will give. And then we would take our part of future layoffs.
Regards,
Empati (who might fly with RYR one day
)
RYR - remember that this is a merger, not a takeover. Therefor equal rights should rule. SAS unions said -5 years, lower pay and furloughs at BU. They furloughed 350 pilots before the merger. That's history! What happends now is up to them. BU pilots are not hired in SAS, but in SASBraathens. We have no rights in SAS. Why should we then lay off because of bad business in SAS in Sweden or Danmark. If they give , we will give. And then we would take our part of future layoffs.
Regards,
Empati (who might fly with RYR one day
)
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reality check
Hi Empati,
The preference of many SAS pilots was to let BU die and go away. Had that happened we wouldn't be having these problems. And some of my former colleagues would still be employed. Anyway, politics intervened and BU was bought by SAS. We now have to deal with it as best we can. The integration has ground to a halt and it will not move as long as the situation is not resolved. What can resolve it??
Quite frankly, not very much. We will be the pilot group that SAS negotiates with. Please try to understand this and what it means to us. We are close to 2000 pilots and therefore carry alot of strength. We use this, for the time being, to push the company towards profitability. Why? We want the company to succeed as we depend on it. And it depends on us. We will not let anybody come between us and SAS as it will dilute our position and give the company what they really want. Choice!!! They want more than one horse to run for them. We have to stand united as it is the only way to counter SAS in the long run. So, there will only be one contract in the future. This is, believe me, inevitable!! We cannot have it any other way.
I predict, and I may be wrong, that things will go our way shortly. Why?? Because SAS needs for things to go our way. Think about it for a second. Who would you rather fight?? Or, more constructively, who can help you the most?? The bigger group of course.
I am afraid this has become a question of emotion. Other earlier takeovers have resulted in seniority losses of 5 years, 8 years or all of it. It is not unusual. The offer was 5 years in this case. I am afraid that this offer, before too long, will seem like a good offer and that alot of BU guys will have regrets.
We are not out to screw anybody over. This is a business transaction, pure and simple. When the price is paid there will be no restrictions with regards to longhaul, as far as I am concerned. Pay and you are in. And thereby helping to strengthen the only group with representation.
regards,
Ramrise
The preference of many SAS pilots was to let BU die and go away. Had that happened we wouldn't be having these problems. And some of my former colleagues would still be employed. Anyway, politics intervened and BU was bought by SAS. We now have to deal with it as best we can. The integration has ground to a halt and it will not move as long as the situation is not resolved. What can resolve it??
Quite frankly, not very much. We will be the pilot group that SAS negotiates with. Please try to understand this and what it means to us. We are close to 2000 pilots and therefore carry alot of strength. We use this, for the time being, to push the company towards profitability. Why? We want the company to succeed as we depend on it. And it depends on us. We will not let anybody come between us and SAS as it will dilute our position and give the company what they really want. Choice!!! They want more than one horse to run for them. We have to stand united as it is the only way to counter SAS in the long run. So, there will only be one contract in the future. This is, believe me, inevitable!! We cannot have it any other way.
I predict, and I may be wrong, that things will go our way shortly. Why?? Because SAS needs for things to go our way. Think about it for a second. Who would you rather fight?? Or, more constructively, who can help you the most?? The bigger group of course.
I am afraid this has become a question of emotion. Other earlier takeovers have resulted in seniority losses of 5 years, 8 years or all of it. It is not unusual. The offer was 5 years in this case. I am afraid that this offer, before too long, will seem like a good offer and that alot of BU guys will have regrets.
We are not out to screw anybody over. This is a business transaction, pure and simple. When the price is paid there will be no restrictions with regards to longhaul, as far as I am concerned. Pay and you are in. And thereby helping to strengthen the only group with representation.
regards,
Ramrise
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moss
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ramrise!
I respectfully disagree on the 5 year issue. Had it been 5 years on the longhaul, maybe. And like I wrote earlier, this was not a takeover, even though it looks like it.
I do agree with your first statement. They should have laid down BU, furloughed BU pilots, and kept some of the 350. Maybe you would have weathered the media storm and turned the focus on the competition. Who knows? For me - thank God it didn't happen! Some guy said; when there is a war, people die! It wasn't my turn, I guess. But don't blame me! I am just an indian like you.
I know SBF well, and diluting your position in relation to the company is not on the agenda! SBF or BSF is only trying to defend BU pilots rights. That's all!! Unfortenately there has been a lot of missinformation.... Pfor, SAS++,SASBraathens have meetings about matters that affect BU pilots life without SBF represented. Have you heard about APARTHAID?? Human rights??
I believe the more we talk together, the more we'll solve. Isolating BU-pilots is a mistake, BIG MISTAKE!
You might be right, things might go your way! After all Pfor runs the company now!? But I'll remember your words, you are not out to screw anybody! We'll see!
Regards,
Empati
I do agree with your first statement. They should have laid down BU, furloughed BU pilots, and kept some of the 350. Maybe you would have weathered the media storm and turned the focus on the competition. Who knows? For me - thank God it didn't happen! Some guy said; when there is a war, people die! It wasn't my turn, I guess. But don't blame me! I am just an indian like you.
I know SBF well, and diluting your position in relation to the company is not on the agenda! SBF or BSF is only trying to defend BU pilots rights. That's all!! Unfortenately there has been a lot of missinformation.... Pfor, SAS++,SASBraathens have meetings about matters that affect BU pilots life without SBF represented. Have you heard about APARTHAID?? Human rights??
I believe the more we talk together, the more we'll solve. Isolating BU-pilots is a mistake, BIG MISTAKE!
You might be right, things might go your way! After all Pfor runs the company now!? But I'll remember your words, you are not out to screw anybody! We'll see!
Regards,
Empati
Kingsnake!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: norway
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every now and then there is some sense and logic in what Ramrise is writing, but his arrogance will hit him hard within a year or so, mark my words. The industri and the reality he is refering to belongs to the past. For me, it is just to sit back and let the future teach Ramrise a lesson. SAS needs to take control of the situation without dictation of even a group of 2000 pilots. If not, they will be split up and sold in peaces. The company has already been devided in different companies so the opurtunity is there..... How long will Pfor last if the Longh. is sold out ?????
And to my prev. comment. The BU guys has already given NF notice of getting out by 1/1-06, so there will be two pilot-negotiation groups next year!!!
And to my prev. comment. The BU guys has already given NF notice of getting out by 1/1-06, so there will be two pilot-negotiation groups next year!!!
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What, me?? Arrogant??
Hi Wiskey,
Seriously, I understand why you see me as arrogant. We simply approach this subject from different angles and have diametrically opposed views of the desired outcome. Let me just try to assure you of one thing. I don't think you could find ONE person in my circle of friends/aqauntances who would describe me as arrogant.
My primary motivation here is to make the pilot group stronger and position ourselves for the next 2 or 3 rounds of negotiations. Why 2 or 3? Well, even though we are starting to make money I think we well be under serious pressure for a while. Thats why we need to think ahead and come up with a plan for resisting the company and their short term rewards.
I actually see SAS taking charge now. Right now SGS and STS are being presented with harsh demands, just as we were in '03 and in '04. And just as we will be shortly. The catch is that we support this process because we need it more than most. I think that we are the group with the most to loose if the company shuts down. I will not find another job anywhere in Europe which is as good as the one I have now. Pure and simple. I want to keep the unit healthy and strong. And one other thing, we also support the process because our calculations show that we, the pilots, come out very well when compared to other groups. In other words, a given segment of the SAS pilot group is no more expensive than the comparable segment in, say Lufthansa or KLM or even Finnair. Then why are we not yet profitable? Well, we are still dragging too much fat around, notably SGS and STS. We pay alot more for handling than almost any other carrier. But that is about to change. When these other segments have been slimmed the company will of course turn to us again, but that is ok. We will cross that bridge when we get to it. And then it will be a 'luxury problem' as the company will be making money. Which is precisely the obejct of this whole exercise.
So, Wiskey, believe it or not. The object here is NOT to 'break' the BU pilots, far from it. We could do alot more together than we are doing right now. Example: the feeling right now is that the Sterling-Maersk integration is working for management. Why? Well, it looks like, FROM THE OUTSIDE I MUST ADMIT, that the Sterling pilots want to take the Maersk guys to the cleaners. Bottom of the list and imposing the Sterling payscale, that kind of thing. Why not join forces and try to raise the bar a little?? I would think that approximately 600 pilots could tell the new management that the old Maersk payscale WILL BE THE ONE TO CONTINUE as the scale in use. That makes more sense to me.
I'll readily admit that the 5 year reduction is a major problem for you guys. Our problem is that we have two groups who have already taken a reduction in seniority. Outsiders then suggest that we shuffle the list and let the new seniority decide. Well, simply put: totally unrealistic. The company, and alot of the members, would never buy it as the financial burden would more or less kill the company, and the new aircraft assignments would not be too popular.
As for the negotiation situation Wiskey, it takes two to negotiate. And I have good reason to believe that SAS will only negotiate with one group.
Again, I have no reason or wish to be confrontational. I just simply honestly believe that your job security will be better on the kombilist with a 5 year seniority reduction. It will, I think, help you and it will help us.
Why would I want you laid-off? How could that benefit me??
Regards,
Ramrise
Seriously, I understand why you see me as arrogant. We simply approach this subject from different angles and have diametrically opposed views of the desired outcome. Let me just try to assure you of one thing. I don't think you could find ONE person in my circle of friends/aqauntances who would describe me as arrogant.
My primary motivation here is to make the pilot group stronger and position ourselves for the next 2 or 3 rounds of negotiations. Why 2 or 3? Well, even though we are starting to make money I think we well be under serious pressure for a while. Thats why we need to think ahead and come up with a plan for resisting the company and their short term rewards.
I actually see SAS taking charge now. Right now SGS and STS are being presented with harsh demands, just as we were in '03 and in '04. And just as we will be shortly. The catch is that we support this process because we need it more than most. I think that we are the group with the most to loose if the company shuts down. I will not find another job anywhere in Europe which is as good as the one I have now. Pure and simple. I want to keep the unit healthy and strong. And one other thing, we also support the process because our calculations show that we, the pilots, come out very well when compared to other groups. In other words, a given segment of the SAS pilot group is no more expensive than the comparable segment in, say Lufthansa or KLM or even Finnair. Then why are we not yet profitable? Well, we are still dragging too much fat around, notably SGS and STS. We pay alot more for handling than almost any other carrier. But that is about to change. When these other segments have been slimmed the company will of course turn to us again, but that is ok. We will cross that bridge when we get to it. And then it will be a 'luxury problem' as the company will be making money. Which is precisely the obejct of this whole exercise.
So, Wiskey, believe it or not. The object here is NOT to 'break' the BU pilots, far from it. We could do alot more together than we are doing right now. Example: the feeling right now is that the Sterling-Maersk integration is working for management. Why? Well, it looks like, FROM THE OUTSIDE I MUST ADMIT, that the Sterling pilots want to take the Maersk guys to the cleaners. Bottom of the list and imposing the Sterling payscale, that kind of thing. Why not join forces and try to raise the bar a little?? I would think that approximately 600 pilots could tell the new management that the old Maersk payscale WILL BE THE ONE TO CONTINUE as the scale in use. That makes more sense to me.
I'll readily admit that the 5 year reduction is a major problem for you guys. Our problem is that we have two groups who have already taken a reduction in seniority. Outsiders then suggest that we shuffle the list and let the new seniority decide. Well, simply put: totally unrealistic. The company, and alot of the members, would never buy it as the financial burden would more or less kill the company, and the new aircraft assignments would not be too popular.
As for the negotiation situation Wiskey, it takes two to negotiate. And I have good reason to believe that SAS will only negotiate with one group.
Again, I have no reason or wish to be confrontational. I just simply honestly believe that your job security will be better on the kombilist with a 5 year seniority reduction. It will, I think, help you and it will help us.
Why would I want you laid-off? How could that benefit me??
Regards,
Ramrise