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STH, Rev I Tin
I'm not sitting here with JSP 752 in front of me, but so far as I can recall the difference in eligibility between senior and junior rate for years 7 and 8 hangs on whether the school charges the same "senior rate" fees for those years as it does for the following years. If it does, then to the best of my belief you are entitled the the senior rate of CEA commensurate with the rules. However, if it doesn't, your entitlement is only to the junior rate. If we are talking about children who will move from a "prep school" to a senior school at 13, even though they may be essentially on the same site and identified as two parts of the same school, it may be even more complicated still. A small amount of homework should provide the answer.
Regards Ginseng |
Ginseng,
My school charges a higher fee for years 7 and 8 than for years 6 and below. £4000 per term for year 6 and below against £4700 years 7 and 8. Currently getting 2 lots of lower rate.(2 x £3650) |
Rev I Tin
Okay. Then I think you may have a case for Senior Rate, but I am not 100% sure. It may well depend whether the charge for years 7 and 8 is exactly the same as, or lower than, year 9 and above. I'll do some digging over the next few days and try to find out.
Regards Ginseng |
Ginseng,
Ok, thanks for having a look. The school is a prep school therefore only goes up to year 8. After that it is a change of school onto secondary boarding, Year 9 onwards. Best regards, :ok: |
Rev I Tin
I am looking at JSP 752 Edition 1 dated 1 Jun 06. Adimittedly it is not the most current edition (4?), which I can't check until next week, but I do not think that Chapter 9 (Education Allowances) has changed significantly since Edition 1. Quotes:
DEFINITIONS 09.0109 Stages of Education. For the purpose of CEA, a child's education is broken down into 3 distinct stages set out below. the age of the child at which each satge commences may vary with the school attended but in general, junior or preparatory school ceases between the ages of 11 and 13...... (my bold) 09.0203 Rates and Conditions of Payment. The rate of CEA(Board) is determined by the stage of education being undertaken ..... d. Different education allowance rates apply for preparatory and middle/senior schools. Junior rates will be paid for children attending primary, junior or preparatory schools. Senior rates will be paid for children attending secondary/senior schools. Where, however, a school covers more than one stage of education and has asubstantial increase in fees for those entering Year 7 (normallt age 11/12), and there is evidence that the National Curriculum is being followed, the Senior Rate of of CEA(Board) will be paid fromthe beginning of year 7 (start of Autumn term). Schools which do not increase their fees in year 7 will not attract the senior rate at that point. The appropriate rate of CEA(Board) payable is indicated as a code on the Accredited Schools Database (ASD) and any questions on entitlement should be staffed to JPAC Pay and Allowances Casework Cell (PACC). Seems to depend on whether your children are attending the "same" school which covers both preparatory and senior stages. Whether this means under the same roof exactly is not abundantly clear. However, you now have the information on which to base further questions. I will check the latest version for any pertinent changes next week. Jesus! Reading JSPs late on a saturday night! I must be a sad b*****d! Regards Ginseng |
Ginseng
You may be a S-B (your words not mine), but thanks, it's much appreciated. I suspect I am about to be over-issued as the charges at my sons' school do not increase in years 7 and 8 (though I will be suggesting that the Bursar has a look at it!). I will simply stash the money away and await the inevitable note of return. It all seems so trivial when compared with the woes of our friends and their families at Kinloss just now. Regards STH |
I've been over-issued with pay 3 times over the last few months. Despite highlighting this to JPAC and HR, no action has been taken to recover it. So, it's currently tucked away in an ISA earning interest until they take it back. There seems to be no way to repay the money with a cheque as under the old system. If they're so determined to make me keep more money than I'm owed, so be it!
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Ginseng
Yes you are sad, but thanks a lot.
Armed with that info I will contact JPAC to get through to PACC. I was advised by the Service Childrens Education people at Upavon that years 7 and 8 at my school is graded as Level 4 on the ASD. Hope that's good! |
STH
I wouldn't be surprised if you find you are entitled to the higher rate, because it seems it should have been driven by whatever marker has been placed against the school in the database, which is not something you can influence. As regards your last comment, I absolutely agree, but even in tragic circumstances the rest of life has to go on.
Regards Ginseng |
Rev I Tin, STH
JSP 752 is now up to DII Version 4 dated 3 Aug 06.
The section 9.0203, sub para d, which I qouted from on Saturday now contains the following extra words, inserted between "....at that point." and "The appropriate rate ....": "However, when a preparatory school ending at Year 8 (age 13) follows the National Curriculum, increases its fees at Year 7 (age 11/12) and considers that its final 2 years equate to the first 2 years of a senior school, the school will not attract the senior rate of CEA(Board). As a child would not be able to complete the senior/secondary stage of education at that school, the entitlement will only be to the junior rate of CEA(Board)." (all bolds are mine). I suspect that this is significant in at least one of your cases. I'm not sure how this rule would be interpreted where a prep school was associated with, but identifiably separate from, a senior school as part of the same umbrella school organisation, and the normal practice was for most of the prep school children to pass on to the senior school. There might be an exceptional case to say that the children were then completeing their secondary/senior stage of education within the same school, but that is a question you will have to put to the experts! Bad news, I suspect, but I hope this helps. Regards Ginseng |
Ginseng,
Thanks for the clarification. Officially yes, that new ruling affects my eldest, however, headmaster informed me two parents have successfully contested it and received a manual payment at the higher rate. Awaiting the call back from JPAC PACC. Thanks for all your help. |
MJ - which paper?
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Originally Posted by airborne_artist
(Post 2842239)
MJ - which paper?
|
Originally Posted by Mike Jenvey
(Post 2842238)
A pat on the back to the JNCO who got a scathing letter about JPA published in one of the UK Sunday papers. :ok:
I suspect a 1-way/no coffee/hat on type situation. The only question would be who does it. Seems the typical way things are going..........<img> |
Some more ministerial answers on JPA can be found in the Recess Hansard.
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As a member of the 'Underpaid' column for the last 4 months, I find it hard to believe only 74 others were underpaid in July (also underpaid Aug too).
I KNOW there is a bug in the system that if you are elegible for GYH(M) allowance and recently been on det, you will be PAYING your GYH(M) as a deduction rather than receiving it. They still haven't fixed that bug. I bet you there's a few in that boat. I'm only owed about £800 now, but I'm still paying for a loan I took out to cover me when I didn't get paid in July. Won't repay till I get all my dosh. RAF will foot the bill for interest and charges for sure. I am now looking to do my ATPLs at the first opportunity as I stated before, I will not work for an outfit that doesn't pay me correctly and on time. Good luck RN!!! Truly pathetic. |
I am sorry, but I simply do not believe those figures for July.
Still owed £13K CEA/BSA, due tomorrow (allegedly), but they said that last week and the week before. Current overdraft £4,000. QR1000 Report in process - have apologised in advance to the Staish, but it's the only way I can get the O/D fees back; he agrees and is not holding it against me personally. A farce. Heads should roll, but reading that poppycock in Hansard you would think all is well with it. Poor, poor RN; I thought that the Senior Service would have the good sense to tell EDS to stick it until it is ABSOLUTELY SORTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STH |
And neither do I!
I discovered on 21 Jul that I was about to have £733 deducted for no good reason and boy was I wrong, they not only stole that off me, but took another £663 ( but gave me a credit of £530). I reported it to JPAC and they said no worries it'll be sorted by end of August. Stuff that I thought and submitted a formal complaint to AFPAA as there was no method to give a mid-month payment. Along came the August pay day and the buggers took another £600 with another £733 showing as a outstanding debt to come out of Sep's pay. Have not recieved any reply to my written formal complaint and having gained some info from JPAC (they haven't actioned the pay amendment or my complaint) I submitted a redress today. I guess it'll get me a 'chat' with the Staish, but I couldn't care less as this sorry tale has been one of the last straws (the other is a spat with Defence estates and MHS) and I'm going to submit a PVR in the NY. Sad really after nearly 20 years but it won't get any better I'm sure.. HPT |
STH,
with you, myself and a good chum of mine, I've identified 1/25th of those who have been underpaid in less than 10 seconds!! I think we're in good company..... As I said, mine's a small debt, but no matter how small, one's employer is obliged to pay up or faces gross breach of contract. I had to work hard to get it down to such a small level. We ARE all volunteers, but that does NOT make my work charitable!! I have mouths to feed and a mortgage to pay. However, I'm not so desperate to have to put up with this, thankfully. I love my job, but my trust in the system has evaporated. I feel totally undervalued as an employee. What happens when I'm OOA for extended periods and I don't get paid then? The RAF have some serious work to restore my faith. Failure to do so will result in me seeking a new employer. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that. |
Hansard quotes 227 overpayments and 258 underpayments in June. The extract from AMP note of 28 July would seem to contradict this and says there were 650 pay errors for that month.
PTC/186/CINC(1491/06) 28 Jul 06 Stn Cdrs Copy to: AFBSC MA/DCDS(Pers) All RAF 2* Officers All RAF 1* Officers RAF JPA ROLL-OUT UPDATE 1. I fully recognise that the introduction of JPA to the RAF has had many more problems than were envisaged. I truly believe that the RAF did everything possible to prepare itself for the delivery of JPA and I know that significant numbers of personnel have worked tirelessly to overcome the difficulties that we face. However, the fact remains that it is an immature product and much work remains to be done. That said, when I consider what has been achieved already, I am in no doubt that JPA will provide the level of service we require for the future. This note provides background to current JPA issues and explains what is being done to resolve them. I have provided a similar text for publication in the next issue of RAF News. 2. JPAC Enquiry Centre. The Enquiry Centre is the ‘decisive point’ which could unlock many of the current difficulties. Arguably, any new IT system of this size will have its problems. However, these have been compounded by the inability of the JPAC Enquiry Centre to provide the level of service required. With over 5,000 requests outstanding, much work remains to resolve the problems (although we know that some of these 5,000 enquiries have been submitted 4 or 5 times in an attempt to get a reply). Only when this backlog has been removed, which should be by Sep 06, can AFPAA’s customer charter standards of timely response be achieved. It is worth noting that the Enquiry Centre began with a staff of 35, it now has 55 and will increase to 90 in the Autumn when the Royal Navy plan to come on-line. We expect a ‘steady state’ hit rate of some 60 RAF enquiries per day compared with nearly 190 at the moment. RAF staff are already supplementing the JPAC back office and will be there until at least the end of Aug; in recognising how important it is to fix this, a further 6 RAF personnel will be detached to assist for this period. These SACs and Cpls are doing an excellent job in helping with the clearance of outstanding queries and providing a level of Service knowledge previously lacking in the Enquiry Centre. 3. Training. The training provided to RAF self service users and HR professionals has not been good enough. A complete overhaul of the e-learning training is being undertaken to provide a revised package in October 2006. In addition, RAF HR staffs are working with JPA staffs to produce simplified “how do I” guides for self-service and professional users. Further HR specialist training is being carried out at regional seminars, the first of which was held at RAF Benson on 20 Jul 06. Others will follow at RAFC Cranwell and RAF Leuchars in the next 2-3 weeks. A matrix has been distributed to units describing the division of responsibilities between unit staff and the JPAC EC. This work includes links to documents describing how to carry out specific actions. The 2nd edition of this document will be published this week and should clarify the JPAC/Unit HR areas of responsibility. Additionally, AFPAA are forming a roving training team which will be in place by mid-Sep 06. 4. Posting Preferences. To date, some 6,000 RAF personnel have yet to log on to JPA for the first time. Moreover, only 16,000 individuals have logged their choices of future assignment and location. Step by step instructions on exactly how to enter these choices are available on the JPA ‘Self Service Guide’. This basic action needs to be taken as soon as possible. 5. There is a raft of other work underway, including: a. Flight Sub-Imprest Administration. A paper has been submitted to the Joint Requirements Steering group proposing improvements in Flight Sub-Imprest administration and proposing a maximum rate rather than actuals for incidental expenses. b. Pay Statements. Units have reported that Pay statements have been addressed wrongly. The pay statement address is taken from RAF establishment data. It is the Unit responsibility to ensure that this data is accurate. I understand that there is a backlog of establishment updates to be input into JPA by the RAF. This will be resolved by Oct 06. Pay errors continue to receive most urgent attention in recognition of our responsibility to pay people accurately and on time. With the Jul pay now going into bank accounts, I will compare the error rate with the 650 in Jun. This compares with an average of 150-200 a month before JPA was implemented. I make this latter point because there have always been pay problems and we should not pretend that they will be eradicated totally. What I expect in the future is a far more responsive system than we have ever had before. c. Subsistence Rates. Units and individuals have registered discontent about the capped actual subsistence system. The new systems will pay for the food and drink consumed, up to a rate exactly equivalent to the allowance under the previous system. It will not allow a claim for cash in lieu of food, as was previously the case. d. Other Allowances. Other allowances have been rebalanced and retargeted within the same overall budget. This has allowed payment of Disturbance Allowance to single personnel for the first time and for higher levels of LSA to compensate those who spend the most time away from home. e. RN Go-Live. Planning for the RN roll-out is well under way. The RAF will not have access to JPA from 14 - 22 Oct 06. This window will allow RN data to be migrated onto the system. Other ideas such as having a dedicated RN helpline number at go live, are being considered to prevent RN roll out impacting adversely on the RAF. The JPA system is being bolstered with extra hardware in advance of RN launch. 6. Feedback. Senior RAF Administrators attending this week’s Personnel Conference have been briefed by my Focal Point Team Leader and AFPAA’s D Change. This session addressed the issues submitted by units and gave direction on how they would be addressed (Annex A refers). I hope that this two-way dialogue has enabled stn staff to represent local concerns and take back the hard facts. On the same basis, Chf Clks are invited to visit the JPAC and AFPAA Model Office at Centurion Building in Gosport. Please ensure that your Chf Clk takes advantage of this opportunity [points of contact are: Mrs Doreen Allen (93844 ext 2126) or WO1 Hill (93844 ext 2567)]. 7. I recognise that the speed of JPA improvements has not been at the pace that any of us would have wished. If I look back over the past 4 months, we have made huge steps forward, from system functionality through to data accuracy. Perhaps most importantly is that we understand JPA better. Whilst progress has been slow, we have broken the back of this issue and once the problems in the JPAC Enquiry Centre have been addressed, we will be well on the path to success. Rest assured, I will continue to drive for an improved service. AMP Annex: A. Major JPA Issues Raised by Units. SDF |
After a couple of Sherberts I've concluded that JPA is a secret saving scheme for those of us who like to blow substantial amounts of cash on shiney gadgets.
JPA have noted my requirements for a new MacBook and have witheld my pay accordingly. Happy days :E |
Not sure if I'm getting paid correctly or not, as random pay statements arrive 2 or 3 weeks after getting paid, and they don't reflect the payment I get.
If you don't get anywhere with a formal complaint, perhaps consider a visit to the CAB and ask how to request an employment tribunal. Which you are entitled to, regardless of the parts of the Employment Act that don't cover crown service. |
Has anyone notice the Bulletin that came out yesterday, we are now responsible for making abatements in our own claims in respect of any other allowances we are entitled to. If you have Home to Duty and claim Motor Mileage Allowance then you have to abate the amount you claim with what they pay you daily for your travel. Now that is an other example of us doing their dirty work to make up for the inadequacies of the system as it is the same system that gives us both claims. And what happens when you make your journey to work in the normal manner and then go off somewhere are they going to charge you with fraud even though you are only claiming a journey on MMA subsequent to your legitimate HTD one. If I had wanted to get this involved in my allowances I would have joined as Admin.
PA |
Originally Posted by PerArdua
(Post 2843912)
. If you have Home to Duty and claim Motor Mileage Allowance then you have to abate the amount you claim with what they pay you daily for your travel. and then go off somewhere are they going to charge you with fraud
PA Bit of a p*ss*r at first but ultimately no real hardship as my typical route to work - 25 miles - passed within 4 miles of the main gate. If it was pure 25 miles in the wrong direction then it would extend your working day by 50 miles - couple of hours - push you over the 11 and into a night stop.:} |
I refer you to Post 1045.
Guess what? Still not been paid. :mad: STH |
STH,
Take them to court, mate. I'm seeing that as the only option should I not get paid all my dues by the end of this month. Bear in mind the RN 'come aboard' soon, and the RAF will be dropped like a hat whilst they sort out the Navy's disastrous JPA intro. The brass hats will accept that as only 75 of us got underapid in July(!!!!) and 'It'll be a tiny minority in Oct' the RAF are 'Okay'.:uhoh: I know this is small beans compared to the poor souls at ISK but it is a matter of principle. I am a man of principles and if the RAF can't cope, then adios. |
Annus Horribilis
Earlier in this thread (p 28) there was much scorn pointed at an MOD spokesman for JPA - Trevor Field. He did indeed promise back in May that all faults would be sorted by the "end of the week".
I note the same name is in today's BBC web reports for organising the media enclosure at ISK for the return of our 14 colleagues. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5338206.stm I'll wager this guy can't wait for his Annus Horribilis to end. TR |
Telephone call today from JPAC - I need to fill-in all the forms again (all the info is on JPA already and I also have an email from them with all the names dates schools figures etc) and fax them in so that they can get them approved for today's pay run in the next hour that will (allegedly) pay me on Saturday. As I am about to in-brief for an exercise (control team waiting, crews have walked etc) I explain that this is impossible. I am praying that the Chief Clerk managed to sort it out on my behalf (as promised) in time for the pay run.
What have I done to deserve this? STH |
Good grief, I'm glad I left 11 years ago. What a load of arse. I don't know how you guys stay motivated TBH. Maximum respect to those that still go out and do the business.
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Ever wondered how they keep the figures for problems down:
"Some Service Personnel may have noted GPD (Gross Public Debt) & NPD (Net Public Debt) entries on their July pay statement, leading to either an under- or over- payment. This issue is due to a pay process/software configuration fault in the GPD & NPD program and is affecting personnel who had a public debt against their pay account. This matter is currently under investigation. A further bulletin will be posted once confirmation of resolution and repayment information is available. In the interim personnel should contact their Unit HR staff in the event of any hardship. Servicemen who contact the Enquiry Centre (EC) to report GPD & NPD problems will not be given a Service Request number as the issue is already being resolved. The Service number and name of all such personnel will be logged in order to help with pay verification once the fix is in place." AND THE SOLUTION.... A problem was identified in the JPA system with the processing of Gross Public Debt (GPD) and Net Public Debt (NPD) recovery (formerly known as Overissues). This was first communicated in Bulletin 0608-003 dated 4 Aug 06. This issue has affected a number of RAF service personnel who have had a discrepancy in their pay because of an over-recovery of debt in June and July salary. Recovery of Overpayments The underlying problems with this process were corrected last week. Recovery action on all individual RAF personnel records affected by this problem was required prior to the August payroll process.This action was completed on Saturday 19 Aug and the August payroll has now finished. All personnel affected will receiveeithera refund of monies in their August salaryor an offset against remaining public debt. This will be dependent on what, if any, debt is remaining, and what activity would normally have taken place in August payroll. Any refundswill be shown by an adjustment to either "GPD" or "NPD" in the relevant area of the JPA payslip. |
I am one of 'those individuals' suffering the GPD / NPD entries. For the last 3 months, my pay statements have always run to 3 pages with contradictory and cancelling entries. I'm so bloody confused after 3 months that I honestly do not know whether I am in debt or not.
Does anybody else find the layout of the new pay statements a pain in the arse to understand....or am I just getting old?....:{ |
The return of Rates????
Has anyone heard for sure if the old Rates system is going to return?? I have heard that it will be re-introduced down at Lyneham some time in the Autumn 2006.
Cheers RN2639 |
Today's sad CEA update ...
Left it as late as possible today before enquiring whether there had been any progress. Apparently my forms were completed by the HR people yesterday (very kind, and I am genuinely grateful - though I can't for the life of me imagine why it was necessary). The forms were faxed to JPAC, but there were so many from all over the country that the whole thing ground to a halt and no-one knows whether my info was actually input to the compooter in time for the Pay Run. It would seem that I am one of very many in a similar position. Don't worry, says HR, there's another pay run on 20 Sep 06 - not worried says I, Staish has told me to come and get a cheque from you instead. That'll be £12,262 please. Has anyone ever taken the Service to the Small Claims Court? STH:mad: |
Small Claims court
STH,
In answer to your question about the small claims court, I dont think so. However, I am considering that course of action. I left the Service in February this year. I was away on a det that attracted LSSA until mid December. Being FTRS I was not paid LSSA automatically, but had to claim it on my return. Experience told me that it typically took up to 3 months for me to receive the money. The claim was duly submitted and authorised, and although it had not been paid when I cleared, I was not worried and was assured it would be paid at the end of February or March at the latest (1st mistake). When April came and went and I was not paid I wrote a letter to Innsworth to the address given for such correspondence when I was discharged. No reply. It has been chased up on a number of occasions and all letters have gone unanswered. The adj on my old Sqn has also faxed, written and called and been assured that it will be paid. Excuses have been given; backlog, JPA etc. Although the amount is small it is the principal that is getting to me and I am going to fire off a letter to AMP informing him that if this is not sorted by the end of October, I will take the RAF to the small claims court to recover my rightful dues. As a side issue does anyone have a good address for AMP. I think I will send the letter by recorded delivery. Shadwell |
Shadwell,
Interested to read your note. Am in a similar situation, but concerning overpayment of MQ charges (briefly, moved out in Nov 05, system carried on removing charges from pay despite regular requests to stop) all efforts via HR staff to effect a refund (a couple of K involved)fruitless. Variety of excuses offered, interspersed with 'it'll be credited to your account this month.....next month.....etc' but JPA being cited as the main delaying factor. Have now run out of patience big time and if it isn't in the bank account by the eom, intend to follow the Small Claims Court route shortly thereafter. I'm appalled at the degradation to personnel support that this godforsaken system has inflicted. The stress it is causing HR customers and staff alike is unbelievable - the anger, disappointment and frustration voiced on this forum only shows a part of what's actually going on out there. |
Shadwell,
Do have an addy and tel no (plus email) if ur interested. AMP now at HW. Felix |
EODFelix,
Yes please I am very interested. Please PM me with the details if you would rather not post them here. After I posted my piece here this morning, I phoned the lady who is in charge of FTRS at Innsworth. She took over from Tom Robson and was very helpful, but advised me that the only way to pursue the issue would be through the JPA help desk! I tried phoning and got a fax! So I e mailed and although it is early days I have so far not received a reply. If I dont hear anything by Wednesday, I will send a recorded delivery to the address you have. I know Barry Thornton (AMP) from a previous incarnation. Not that I think that would help. I dont think even a personal for, recorded delivery would get to his desk, but it is worth a try. Needless to say, I will keep you posted on any progress I make. If I dont get satisfaction (ie the money I am due), I will take the Service to the small claims court. Got to go, its time for my medication. Nuuuuuurse (not Kev) Shadwell |
Try taking EDS to the small claims court - after all, it is THEIR useless system and pointless, lazy staff in the JPAC who are the cause of this.
Boils my pi$$, so it does!!! |
Unfortunately my gripe/problem pre dates JPA so my problem is with the old pay system.
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Then it's still AAFPA (not the RAF) - and guess who their contractor was on the legacy system...
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