617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!
 

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As an ex Officer i/c the 'Black Labrador' grave I'm not sure how destroying a gravestone and replacing it with a 'sanitised' version can be justified. Just how many people are 'offended' by history?

Slightly misleading and inflammatory thread title here in the pprune mil history forum....

It wasn't vandalised, as obviously it was approved, it's been altered.

Frankly IMO, I've got bigger fish to fry. The dogs name is irrelevant.

It wasn't irrelevant to the dog, Guy Gibson, the other members of 617, or the operation that made it famous.

We shall have to agree to disagree. It doesn't alter the history at all having the name of the dog removed from a gravestone.

I'd wager a hefty chunk of people these days (I'd say 90%) couldn't tell you the name of the dog. But a larger chunk could tell you of guy Gibson, Six Hundred and Seventeen Sqn, and the Dambusters Raid. I know which one I think is more important and relevant.

The dog's name was used as the codeword for "Breach of the Mohne Dam".
Is Paul Brickhill's book being withdrawn from libraries to be reprinted....????


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The grave is not in the public domain, and all who do have access understand totally its relevence to the history books!

Historic fact is never irrelevant, It was not irrelevant to Gibson and the boys on 617 at the time and nor should it be now.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.

To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.

Correct! :ok:

What’s in a name?
 

What if the dogs name was C*nt (rhymes with hunt)?! Would we still use the name in 2020?

I fully understand history but the ‘N’ word is the one word I just cannot bring myself to ever say out loud (to be fair P*ki is another one) even if it is in reference to a dog.

Regardless of the latest BLM movement I, for one, think the black dog’s name is one thing we can consign to the history books.

I realise that, in this forum, I may well be in the minority and I am certainly not a bleeding hearts Liberal but I think it is actually appropriate to replace the headstone.

I also don’t believe it is in any way disrespectful to the proud history of 617 Sqn and the memory of those that served. Or the dog!

BV

Max Hastings.

His name is a fact and it is wrong to erase it from history.

Well said.

But it won't sit well with the narrative on this mil history forum.

The world is undergoing a phase of self-flagellation with regard to anything controversial, whether it be names, actions, events, people and places.

Think Zimbabwe, colloquially and locally, citizens remember the lives and the culture that was Rhodesia, whether that was for the better or the worse. Changing the name was an isolated event in 400 years of history.

This will turn out to be the same, the people who know, and remember, will not be instantly "reconstructed" because of a change in names. Perhaps in a few hundred years these memories will also have slipped into obscurity

IG

Mikemmb
 

With all due respect, I believe you’re wrong.

Nobody is calling Guy Gibson a racist for naming his dog as he did. Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure.

Some people, me included, just think that the name is no longer appropriate. Just as other words have fallen out of useage.

It is not erasing history. It is merely glossing over the name of a dog.

If you would honestly feel comfortable standing in front of a crowd of people and proudly stating aloud the name of the dog without feeling just a hint of embarrassment then well done you. I certainly couldn’t.

I know the black dog’s name is something of a cause celebre on here but I think there are far better things to gnash your teeth about than this.

BV

See in this instance I don't think so. The grave is still there and anyone so taken can easily find out more about it.

If the grave were removed entirely, that would IMHO be different.

While we're at it, lets review names on all grave stones and remove those that cause offence, but offence to who?

Hat, coat etc.

GBJ
 

Not all graves attract quite so much attention. And not many have quite such a controversial moniker.

BV

Nobody is changing history. It's a physical artefact and therefore archaeology. In this case an object, the history of which is pretty well known.

My opinion on this is that all the people I know personally who get hot under the collar about this issue seem to embrace complaining so as not to lose their sole opportunity to use the word.

So you would gloss over the name Heinrich Himmler or Rheinhardt Heydrich then? Both of them a part fo history?

I agree, its not just the name of a dog, as it has a direct connection to the raid because of its use for successful breach of the Mohne.

As said, its a slippery slope, and this is obviously done in preparation for when the RAF vacate the site, and the grave will be then no longer be off limits to 'joe public'?

I hope that the original stone has not be destroyed, as that really would be a disgraceful.

I can remember as a child going with my Scottish Grandmother into a hardware shop in the days before big DIY stores opened up, when she asked for a tin of ***** Brown paint.

And they probably had it on a colour card/chart too.

Would the original memorial not be included in 617's history trove?

CG

IMO it is wrong to change it, but the opinions of a bunch of ageing privileged white men are hardly relevant to this current societal movement.

And whoever changed it, they missed a full stop after the ".....Black Labrador Dog......." The word Mascot should be the start of a new sentence.

I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade. (And again heresay - the dog was a target of a certain other Vulcan squadron who retaliated during the continuing war of the Tirpitz bulkhead).

i understand where you are coming from Bob but I also disagree, The name may no longer be appropriate but that does not remove the fact that it was and is fact.

To take it to an extreme, naked images of children are no longer rightly deemed appropriate, but the world if full of art and statues featuring Putti and Cherubs, from the Royal State Coach through to the Vatican there are statues and art featuring putti and cherubs, history is full of art from Rome onwards, do we now remove those items That offend because they to are no longer appropriate in the modern world? Where do you draw a line or stop?

Rome took and put to death slaves, do we delete them from history, one could list faults with most “Civilisations” but at some point if you destroy all history and wipe the map clean, are we better people for it?

I think not, because we learn from our history, our faults, and our progress, without that learning, Slavery, Racism and hate would possibly still be with us at far more prevalent levels than it is now.

Christ is more or less always portrayed as white, but when I was still at School we visited a monastery in Spain or Portugal that had a black infant Christ, and they pointed out that in the Middle East it was quite possible that Christ was of Middle Eastern or of African origins..


History draws a finicky line.

The N-name doesn't endure - the callsign is now "BlackDog", and isn't used by 617 Sqn!

I've been called a bleeding heart liberal before, but I'm with OP on this one. If it was called n****r, it was called n****r and that should stay on the gravestone. If you're offended by the truth, tough. If an old fashioned word upsets you so much, don't go around looking at old things.

Same if the name was c**t. Although that's not a fair comparison because as far as I know that's never been an acceptable word, so you would never have someone called that.

Not officially, anyway. :E

Personally I would be more concerned with the fact that 55 brave young men, the flower of Britain and its Commonwealth failed to return from that raid and now lie buried all over Europe.

But they also changed Oder to Eder! (an original typo!)


I just hope the original is put in a museum somewhere, not trashed in a skip!!!

The story I heard when I was there was that the dog was never buried outside Gibson’s office at all, the 2 erks detailed to so just threw him over the hedge on the other side of the A15, disturbed the soil and said they’d done it. It seems the dog was none too popular as it was allowed to roam freely (how it ended up dying) leaving it’s mess everywhere which they had to clear up.

Air Pig
 

I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison. Himmler or Heydrich’s names are not offensive in and of themselves.

I realise you all think I’m just a young upstart with no respect for history but that is not the case.

If OC 617’s surname had been N$&@er I would agree with you. But we’re talking about his dog. Airbrushing over it’s name changes nothing in my opinion.

The Squadron were still undeniably brave and their exploits legend.

I honestly think that people hanging onto the importance of the dog’s name are just using it as an excuse to say a word they know is socially unacceptable in 2020 but they feel they have an entitlement to use because it is the right of their generation.

I’m being blunt and that’s because I have been drinking wine but the gist of what I’m saying would be unchanged if I were sober.

BV

BV, wine soaked, or not, I completely agree with you. The name is historical but not significant enough for it to be regarded as a national treasure. Its time has passed and I think this replacement is sympathetically done enough to show the significance to the event in 1943 but not to cause offence. I’d rather have this new plaque than wait a while longer and have the original vandalised by some oik and it splattered all over Faceagram for effect. Let’s face it, we’ve allsniggered at its ‘naughtiness’ for years so we knew its time was over.

I do hope that those who paid to replace the headstone were not niggardly.

^^^^^That's a different word with a different meaning. Not quite sure what you are trying to prove LB? Other than being obtuse.

I agree. Oh - and Specaircrew, as a member of 35 Sqn I have of course upheld the tradition of peeing on that so-called grave!

If you look at the last few minutes of The Dambusters when 'Gibson' and 'Barnes Wallis' are talking, a black dog can be seen running about in the background. It was thought by the tinfoil hat brigade that this was the ghost of Gibson's dog - but I heard lter that when a member of the film crew queried this with some airman, he replied "No mate, there's no n***** at Scampton" using the contemporary expression for a 'person of colour'......

A Nigerian chap on the CFS course after mine remarked "Will I get a grave that good if I crash and kill myself?"

My problem with this is that the controversy surrounding the name of the dog detracts from remembering what they all did. It is difficult to have a discussion about the Dambusters without it coming up somewhere (ooooh they are remaking the film, what are they going to call the dog?). Like it or not the word is now controversial and deeply offensive to some so it is probably time, not to 'erase it from history' but to at least try to remove it from things that are obviously in the public domain, if that means taking it off a gravestone then so be it. However if someone asks what the name of the dog was there is no need to lie and I wouldn't want to see the name removed from books on the subject or of course from historical records.

The original gravestone was given a tour of the dams when it was nicked by a 4 Sqn Det in the early eighties. The Staish and OC 617 Sqn went harpic and it was returned pronto! No doubt the prick that decided to replace the gravestone is demanding that libraries burn all the books with 'bad words' in them.

But with the rumoured plan being closure of Scampton and disposal of the real estate, it might well end up being in public view, and devalue said real estate

Just my twopence

Ttfn

To all those of you who have never been a Dambuster....your opinions on the worth of dismantling part of the history of a Sqn you have not been a member of are barely relevant.

To those of us who have been, or still are, Dambusters, I can't imagine too many of us would agree with the cancellation of a part of the founding history of our Sqn.

It was the Gibsons' dog's name, it forms a relevant and poignant part of our Sqn history from that day to this.

No disrespect intended.

My parents met in Kenya (Durban) during the war when he was a Sunderland Captain on 209 Squadron and she was a CPO Wren.
Life was different then when people had "servants" when, in UK, they would not. What they called them was not insulting - it was just the language of the day which, thankfully has changed.

Personally, I am offended by the notion that a human can ‘own’ a dog.

Where do you stop all this PC’ness? An RAF Wardog, has it not earned its right to be buried under its own name? It earned its number.


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